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Archive talk:Rank Canon Debate

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Revision as of 08:24, December 13, 2006 by halowikia>Yamanba

The Debate

How far are we going to take this Rank thing? I noticed that people have created, Captain and Admiral. What is the UNSC rank structure? Is it like this:?

Who made this its all wrong!--Ryanngreenday 10:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

the navy ranks in the UNSC are the navy ranks of our time and the same for the Marines.--Ryanngreenday 18:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/ Heres a good resource for that. --JohnSpartan117 03:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Present day American Ranks

The ranks here are incorrect. If you really want to make an article for each rank, remember that there are a LOT of them, and most are used. Here are the ranks; they correspond to the ones used today in the US military:

Navy Enlisted

  • Crewman
  • Petty Officer Third Class
  • Petty Officer Second Class
  • Petty Officer First Class
  • Chief Petty Officer
  • Senior Chief Petty Officer
  • Master Chief Petty Officer

navy Warrant Officers

  • Warrant Officer 1
  • Warrant Officer 2
  • Warrant Officer 3
  • Warrant Officer 4
  • Master Warrant Officer

Navy officers

Note that for example Tech Officer (3rd class) Sam Marcus is actually a petty officer third class but he has a different rank name because he is a technician.

Marine Enlisted

Marine Warrant Officers

  • Warrant Officer
  • Chief Warrant Officer 2
  • Chief Warrant Officer 3
  • Chief Warrant Officer 4
  • Chief Warrant Officer 5

Marine Officers


Note that "Company Sergeant" has also been used. The "Company Sergeant" rank doesn't even exist in the modern chain of command, and so we have no idea where to put either of these. However, it might be a title rather than a rank.

Rank structure is speculation!

All this said, we don't know how the rank structure works, it has never been described. If we were to make articles for each rank, they would be stubs with about one charachter link, and if we made one article, it would be an awful lot of speculation. I say we wait until we know more about the tanks before we make articles on them. -ED 19:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

that looks right now.--Ryanngreenday 19:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
How about we make a page with the above info and move the content of captain and admiral into it? -- Esemono 22:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Company Sergeant is like the highest ranking Sergeant in a Company,people just call them that but thats not really there rank like a staff Sergeant in charge of Squads is called a plt.sgt. or Platoon Sergeant and Sergeant Major is after Master Gunnery Sergeant.--Ryanngreenday 10:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

UNSCDF is not American

  • UNSCDF is not American and so you can't guarntee that the rank system is American. It just as easily be British, or French ranks. All the above ranks should not be used as the UNSCDF ranking scheme isn't confirmed. --220.108.255.31 04:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
If you read the books it will become clear.--Ryanngreenday 09:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The books? Here is Halo: First Strike and Halo: The Fall of Reach. Show me on what page that it talks about a rank structure and where it says that the UNSCDF is an American military force. --220.108.255.31 08:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
The UNSC is probably mostly Americans. Kind of weird...you never see Chineise or Indians, and they would be the most populous. Its always...English, Mexican, orAmerican.--JohnSpartan117 02:06, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
You only ever see a small group of people that could easily be from Argentina as they could be from America. It's never stated what the rank structure is and so a rank article shouldn't be created. Also Captain and Admiral should also be deleted as speculation.--220.108.255.31 08:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Read the books write down all the ranks go on the internet search military ranks and compare them to the Mexican,Chineise,Indians or any other see the ranks might come close or not at all, then look at this ranks units every thing makes sense.--Ryanngreenday 09:49, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Again Here are Halo: First Strike and Halo: The Fall of Reach. Show me on what page that it talks about a rank structure and where it says that the UNSCDF is an American military force. --220.108.255.31 08:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Im sure the UN has US military ranks, what other ranks would they use? --JohnSpartan117 15:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
good point.--Ryanngreenday 16:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Good point? Hardly! It's obvious to everyone that the UNSCDF uses a mixture of ranks taken from the permant members of the security council i.e. Britian, France, Russia, China.--220.108.255.31 08:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
No...the whole council had American ranks. --JohnSpartan117 02:58, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
No the whole council are British ranks.
  • You're forgetting what the UN is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Un it seems in the future earth has more or less united with the UN as their leader they probably elected different leaders from different country’s to rule, since Bungies American their use American ranks the master chief salutes like a yank any way. --Climax Viod 10:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Keep in mind that the UNSC is more of a government than a union. This comes from the info from the map Zanzibar dewscription: "Wind Power Station 7 sits as a mute reminder of the EAP's late 25th-century attempt at re-nationalization" The UNSC is not nationalized as the UN is today; it appears that humanity is united under one government; the Colonial Administration Authority of the UNSC. Needless to say, we haven't been told a lot about how the Governemnt works in Halo. 220.108.255.31 has a point. The vast majority of the ranks we have seen so far are american, but we have never seen a concrete rank scheme, only the different ranks. We can assume that they are organized in the same way as the American Military, but we can not know for certain.
At the same time, remember that Halo was developed by an american company, so naturally there is a bias towards the relatively easy to recognize american military rank system. The Decorations worn by the soldiers correspond exactly to those seen in the US military today. Therefore, I will once again suggest that we hold of on creating rank articles, as we do not know for certain how the UNSC military is organized. We can only speculate. -ED 17:19, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
it's right--Ryanngreenday 17:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
  • one of the new books, games or the movie will tell us soon enouth egreed ? --Climax Viod 17:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
egreed--Ryanngreenday 17:41, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Whoever just said they had british ranks is wrong, they do not have british ranks. In fact...they are usually ranks like "Admiral", "Major General", which...could be from multiple countries, but most likely, American. --JohnSpartan117 19:26, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Most Likely American but not confirmed therefore using the American ranking system would be speculation which is against Halo policy.--John117 01:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I wouldnt call it speculation, every single rank we see is American...they even have Purple Hearts, which are American. --JohnSpartan117 02:11, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I never said that there wouldn't be any American influence in the UNSCDF but it's PURE speculation to say that the entire UNSCDF is based on the US military. --John117 03:11, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
There all right why wont you people just accept it?--Ryanngreenday 14:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Is Master Cheif Petty Officer Of The Navy a common rank amongst the world? --JohnSpartan117 19:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
no not that common, id say Bungie would use American ranks because they're American, but may put in some British stuff eg Ranks and awards, if they like the sounds of them --Climax Viod 20:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
It's a unique rank to the American NAVY but in it's present form the Master Cheif Petty Officer of the Navy is more like a Union rep. The advise the senior staff on issues that concern the lower ranks. -- 06:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, 220.108.255.31 earlier said
"Here are Halo: First Strike and Halo: The Fall of Reach. Show me on what page that it talks about a rank structure and where it says that the UNSCDF is an American military force."
So I am here to provide page numbers for all 34 (of 45) confirmed USN and USMC ranks that are also UNSDC ranks.
--Rot 03:20, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Appeal to a higher authority

  • I have a good idea, lets email Frankie and ask him. --JohnSpartan117 21:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
...and while were at it..lets ask him if their are any Naval ground combat elements besides the Marines and Spartans. Like...Navy seals or something. --JohnSpartan117 21:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Do you think they'd respond ? --Climax Viod 21:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
  • All ranks here are right. Most if not all of the navy ranks here are in the books and sense they are right and from the Marine ranks in the books we can see that the Marine ranks are right.--Ryanngreenday 22:14, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Frankie is the higher authority -- John117 10:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Frankie is the keeper of Halo Info! He works for Bungie! Im sure...if we tell him that were from Halopedia....--JohnSpartan117 14:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

yeah reprasentives haha --Climax Viod 16:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

You might have a better chance with the Mods of the Bungie forums? Maybe just make a post about it on HBO, where there is a slight chance a Bungie member will respond. Not an open question to Bungie, but a normal thread (they do that occasionally). And if they don't come, you can get input from a bunch of other fans. --Dragonclaws 17:15, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

It would be hard to post urself on hbo and expect a decent answer, all they talk about thats close to halopedia, is that other halo wiki that focuses ONLY of Halo 2 multiplayer. But if you do, hopefully a less intelligent/new bungie worker might fall for it. Ironic, that last plan IS speculation, and were supposed to get rid of speculation articles. hahahahaha. --Forerunner 13:09, 3 November 2006 (GMT)

Votes for Deletion

  • Delete - This is Noncannon speculation just like Installation 07 and should be deleted -- John117 10:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - any body with a brain and an open mide could see that its right.--Ryanngreenday 10:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
  • keep - I agree, its quite obvious, and not really speculation as it is common sense that they use US Naval and Marine ranks, but maybe....we should take our chances before we delete this and ask Bungie? --JohnSpartan117 14:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I recently changed my vote to delete.--JohnSpartan117 06:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I've changed it back to keep.--JohnSpartan117 08:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep- yeah until its corrected --Climax Viod 07:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep-its the same as in the novels--Chiefman117 20:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - It's all fiction. No one except the Bungie staff know what the rank structure is like. -- Yamanba 14:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

4 to 1 I think its staying so can i get ride of this disputed content crap?--Ryanngreenday 16:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Why did it change from Dispute to pending deletion?--JohnSpartan117 00:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

It should not because we won.--Ryanngreenday 09:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Someone here watches too much Star Trek.

  • JR Grade? SR Grade? These are Star Trek Ranks not real naval ranks! Even the Read (lower) Admiral and (Upper) are really really trekky--JohnSpartan117 03:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
This is the exact reason the rank pages need to be deleted! This is all speculation! No one knows what the UNSC rank structure is! -- John11704:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I think this place needs to be REPLACED with the real navy ranks, who the hell would put Star Trek ranks? Once again...I am in disgust and vomitting all over the house. --JohnSpartan117 04:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
They might be on star trek but they're in the navy which Star Trek's ranking system is probably based on.easternct.edu ranks--Ryanngreenday 09:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
No...Sr Grade and JR Grade are NOT in the navy.http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/officers.html Heres a government link on the ranks. --JohnSpartan117 14:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
it even says Sr Grade and JR Grade are you sure you're reading the naval ranks?--Ryanngreenday 18:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
You appear to be fairly uninformed about the US navy.If you don't believe me, take it from them. -ED 19:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I see jr.grade.--Ryanngreenday 22:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Yeah im an idiot...wasnt looking at the Navy...--JohnSpartan117 23:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
So chnge your vote back to keep becsuase how many people told you these ranks are right?--Ryanngreenday 09:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I changed it!--JohnSpartan117 00:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism!

I recently changed my vote to delete...but it was changed back to KEEP! --JohnSpartan117 06:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Changed it back to Delete!
Changed it back to KEEP!

Someone did it for me.....--JohnSpartan117 14:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Realy? --Ah2190 13:27, 6 october 2006


Yeah...but i changed my vote back to keep... --JohnSpartan117 22:36, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll change it back for you. --ah2190 07:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Marines ranks

  • Should we add the Marines rank to the ranks template? -- Ryanngreenday 09:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • good becuase i started to make them.--Ryanngreenday 22:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • There should be a new template call UNSC Marines ranks.--Ryanngreenday 22:43, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I made a template that is more complete called NRanks because the current one is incomplete.--Rot 03:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Commies!

Moved from the Mranks talk page

I know you other people wish it wasnt American ranks, but if you ever read the books, you would completely agree.--JohnSpartan117 14:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The only thing I can agree on after reading the books is that the US DOES NOT EQUAL UNSC. Oh I and I believe the correct term is, Koslovics -- Yamanba 14:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Any one with the mental capacity to read this should understand that the ranks are right for many reasons one of witch is that we won 4 to 1 on the vote to keep or delete the naval ranks template.--Ryanngreenday 18:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep the page it looks good --Climax Viod 19:21, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Its something that goes without saying! I mean...all the ranks mentioned in the books are all US ranks.--JohnSpartan117 23:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Which means they get an article in Halopedia. However, ranks that aren't metioned are thus not part of Halo canon and are instead FanFanatsy. -- Yamanba 14:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
There not FanFanatsy there real. If the ones that are mentioned are right witch they are then we can easly know that the others are right and we should keep them so people can understand the chain of command. -- Ryanngreenday

18:51, 25 October 2006

If they're not FanFanatsy then show me where they're mentioned in the Halo Universe? Show me where the badges are mentioned? Show me a picture? -- Yamanba 22:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

RealWorld Ranks

Correct me if I'm wrong but Halopedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, right? That is the official policy right? Has Ed changed it without updating the Policy page? Why then has Halopedia been turned into a collection of info about American Ranks? Climax Viod has proven that the American Ranking system is NOT part of the Halopedia Universe by adding the Realworld Template to all the Ranks. The only time that template is added is when it's not part of the Halo Universe. -- Yamanba 23:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

All ranks that aren't mentioned in Halo should be deleted right away! As shown by Climax Viod they are not part of the Halo Universe and Halopedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information about the American Military -- Yamanba 23:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

How did Climax Void prove anything? All he did was mistakefully put the Real World Template on the article, it dosnt prove anything but his own naiveness. -- JohnSpartan117 23:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
NAIVENESS !!!!!!! I was helping Ryan, my idea is that all non mentioned ranks should have there contents removed and replaced with {This Rank has not yet been mentioned in the Halo Universe} make a template for it or something. I put the Real world template there because the ranks scheme is from the REAL WORLD --Climax Viod 11:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I must of been high at the time I said that. I apoligize Climax.--JohnSpartan117 23:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

In any case, just because a user edits a page to say something, it doesn't mean that's the truth. There used to be a vandal here who would constantly change the Covenant Dropship article to say it was officially called the "Apparition" confirmed by Bungie, but that didn't make it the case. I once mistakenly said that Grunts can use beam rifles, but that also was not true (even though I thought it was at the time). Also remember that humans are always fallible. --Dragonclaws 16:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Letter To Bungie!

Help us write our letter to Bungie to ask about the Controversial ranks. --JohnSpartan117 05:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to bother reading your boring threads

  • Ok, first, I would like to point out, not only am I lazy, but I am not going to read all of those posts because half of them are meaningless. Now that that has been said, I would like to point a few things out. Thus far, the UNSC ranking system of both the Marines and Navy has followed American ranking to the letter. The British Royal Marines might have a Sergeant, but do they also have a Staff Sergeant, Gunnery Sergeant, and Sergeant Major? The Royal Navy may have a Captain, but do they also Ensign, Commander, and Master Chief Petty Officer? Remember that both Microsoft and Bungie hail from America, as does Eric Nylund. I think it is safe to assume that they follow an American ranking structure. I am not saying to assume, just that it would be safe to do so. Next, I saw a tad bit of...I don't know what to call it...ignorance is probably a good word for it. The image of an American Sergeant by JohnSpartan117 is that of a American Marine Corps Sergeant. The other, by Climax Viod, is that of an American Army Sergeant. There is a difference. Finally, I believe the image on the page that we are debating about says "Insignia of a Sergeant in the Present Day USMC". What is the argument about? It says right there that it is not the rank that a Sergeant in Halo might wear, but rather than of an American Marine Corps Sergeant of 2006.--Rotaretilbo 18:05, 05 December 2006
  • Well you think the ranks are right thats good for you its great to have more people with common sence now.--Ryanngreenday 13:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Well I'm glad you agree with me that we should delete all the ranks that are not mentioned in the Halo canon. Obviously you've read Halopedia policy that stats that Halopedia IS NOT a place for non-Halopedia realated info aka indiscriminate information. I glad someone finally has the guts to say DELETE this fanfiction! Halo is not a place to have articles about TODAY, 2006 military ranks! I'm glad you're following Halopedia policy just like me. Don't worry though there are others you agree that this fiction should be deleted. Ryanngreenday has added Realworld templates to all the ranks that should be deleted because they have nothing to do with the halo Universe and are just collections of indiscriminate information, which as we all know is AGAINST Halopedia policy and those that post random non-Halo related articles risk getting banned.-- Yamanba 15:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

How about we just have articles about the ranks that have been seen in the books and games.?--Ryanngreenday 22:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

UNSC based on the USM/USN

Yamanba, you realize you are one of the only people (I think there is one other) too stubborn to consent that the ranks are all based on the United States Navy and United States Marine Corps. There are 45 proposed ranks (unless you count Chief Warrant Officers 3, 4, and 5 of each rank, which brings it to 51), of which 34 are confirmed. There are thus 11 (18 counting the extra Chief Warrant Officers) unconfirmed ranks. Then we come to the whole issue that not a single rank thus mentioned contradicts the American system. That's evidence enough for the 11 unmentioned to warrant their own short articles if you ask me, though they would have the Not-yet-mentioned-in-Halo-Universe thingy on them so that people know that there is that 1% chance that they aren't ranks.--Rot 03:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what you have against making Halopedia a more respectable Wiki! Why do insist on fighting the addition of sources to this wiki to make it more respectable? I support a strong wiki where there is no fan fiction! Now as for the Ranks, I never said that the UNSC wasn't based on American Ranking system, infact I said that the UNSC was probably based on the American system amoungest others. My position is that Bungie hasn't released the ranking system of the UNSC. Therefore we don't know if it matches perfectly. I have to agree with Eric Nylund when he says that there are anomalies in the UNSC ranking system, I used the American system when I wrote the novels; however, there are anomalies like "Lord" Hood.. Who knows how many other differences, like "Lord", there are. If it isn't mentioned in the Halo Universe it shouldn't have an article, THAT is my arguement. You make it out that I'm the only one who agrees with Halopedia policy of erasing information about present day American information that has no mention in Halopedia! Others stand by this policy:-- Yamanba 13:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
All this said, we don't know how the rank structure works, it has never been described. If we were to make articles for each rank, they would be stubs with about one charachter link, and if we made one article, it would be an awful lot of speculation. I say we wait until we know more about the tanks before we make articles on them. -ED 19:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
In any case, just because a user edits a page to say something, it doesn't mean that's the truth. There used to be a vandal here who would constantly change the Covenant Dropship article to say it was officially called the "Apparition" confirmed by Bungie, but that didn't make it the case. I once mistakenly said that Grunts can use beam rifles, but that also was not true (even though I thought it was at the time). Also remember that humans are always fallible. --Dragonclaws 16:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
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