Halopedia talk:Canon policy: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 20:06, September 27, 2022

Hierarchy of Canon[edit]

I propose we should just get rid of the canon hierarchy, at least in its present form. The games/expanded universe divide hasn't represented the reality of how Halo canon has worked since 2009 for either 343i or us in this wiki, except in regards to marketing material. There are a lot of considerations that come into play with how information is presented in different media, which means it's not always ideal to favor a game over an "EU" source even if there is a conflict. Oftentimes the novels can go into more detail about certain things that the games have to condense and simplify for general audiences (e.g. the Forerunner elements of the Halo 4 terminals vs. The Forerunner Saga). Besides that, 343i has gone on record saying everything is equally canon, sans some pieces of marketing or other media that's explicitly been labeled non-canon. And seeing as we barely ever have any reason to apply the supposed "hierarchy" anyway, it would be clearer to just get rid of it (aside from maybe a note that released materials are generally superior to marketing if there's a conflict). --Jugus (talk) 11:37, 13 October 2016 (EDT)

Support Agreed.Sith Venator

(Dank Memes) 11:45, 13 October 2016 (EDT)

Support I see no reason to keep it. I don't recall ever using it.--Spartacus ^{Talk • Contribs} 12:47, 13 October 2016 (EDT)

Support Agreed. --NightHammer^(talk)^(contribs) 13:56, 13 October 2016 (EDT)

Neutral Really if you wanted to keep it. According to 343i statements in the past. It would be. Everything > Marketing -CIA391 (talk) 19:31, 13 October 2016 (EDT)

Neutral Would you happen to have any links handy we could use as references? --Jugus (talk) 00:25, 14 October 2016 (EDT)

Here: https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/db05ce78845f4120b062c50816008e5d/topics/should-the-games-still-be-highest-canon/4f1af3e4-3a6e-455e-88de-19f18550c672/posts?page=2#post30

Grim called them the "squishiest" to add in. Agreeing to my comment.

I first heard of semi-ruling from the Catalog in PMs. But unless he wants me to give his Gamertag. Might be best to refrain from quoting it.-CIA391 (talk) 03:50, 14 October 2016 (EDT)

Support Doubt my opinon matters since everyone has said it but meh, I agree. Alertfiend - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. (Converse) 05:46, 14 October 2016 (EDT)

Oppose I disagree. It's a good way to deal with contradictions. Editorguy (talk) 19:03, 16 July 2018 (EDT)

The Non Canon Section[edit]

Very useful to have the items listed like this so we know. That being said, I recommend you add All Hail and The Cost to that list. Thanks!--AdmiralPedro1stFleet (talk) 12:53, October 29, 2020 (EDT)

Piggybacking off this section, Showtime's Halo TV show ought to have a special note clarifying that the Silver Timeline is its own separate canon. Also a few things are missing and need to be included in the list! (Rise of Atriox comic, Halo Infinite Memory Agent, Rubicon Protocol, Outcasts, and the 2022 Encyclopedia) Lord Susto 14:43, September 27, 2022 (EDT)

Looks like Riley's just seen to those specified updates for you. However, I definitely think this policy needs a fairly big update, especially with the recent introduction Template:Status, and of "Apocrypha" as a label for content that's not-really-canon-but-sort-of-is, like marketing material and whatnot. I feel like a lot of things currently on the "Canon" list, for instance ilovebees and Memory Agent, should probably exist under that banner.

– Dab1001 (talk • contributions) 21:06, September 27, 2022 (EDT)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-Something needs to be set up like [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_canon Wookiepedia]
+{{Archived}}
-:Yeah, I'll get to it eventually. -[[User:ED|ED]] 02:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
+== Hierarchy of Canon ==
-There's a lot of confusion among new and inexperienced users about the difference between fanon and fanfiction, and why we don't allow it. Perhaps a section on why we don't allow it as well? '''[[User:Specops306|<font color=purple>Specops306]]</font>''', '''''[[User talk:Specops306|<font color=blue>Kora]]</font> [[Special:Contributions/Specops306|<font color=purple>'Morhek</font>]]''''' 04:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
+I propose we should just get rid of the canon hierarchy, at least in its present form. The games/expanded universe divide hasn't represented the reality of how Halo canon has worked since 2009 for either 343i or us in this wiki, except in regards to marketing material. There are a lot of considerations that come into play with how information is presented in different media, which means it's not always ideal to favor a game over an "EU" source even if there is a conflict. Oftentimes the novels can go into more detail about certain things that the games have to condense and simplify for general audiences (e.g. the Forerunner elements of the ''Halo 4'' terminals vs. ''The Forerunner Saga''). Besides that, 343i has gone on record saying everything is equally canon, sans some pieces of marketing or other media that's explicitly been labeled non-canon. And seeing as we barely ever have any reason to apply the supposed "hierarchy" anyway, it would be clearer to just get rid of it (aside from maybe a note that released materials are generally superior to marketing if there's a conflict). --[[User:Jugus|Jugus]] ([[User talk:Jugus|talk]]) 11:37, 13 October 2016 (EDT)
+:{{Support}} Agreed.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 11:45, 13 October 2016 (EDT)
+::{{Support}} I see no reason to keep it. I don't recall ever using it.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 12:47, 13 October 2016 (EDT)
+:::{{Support}} Agreed. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 13:56, 13 October 2016 (EDT)
-==Bungie Employees?==
+::::{{Neutral}} Really if you wanted to keep it. According to 343i statements in the past. It would be. Everything > Marketing -[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 19:31, 13 October 2016 (EDT)
-I, personally, wouldn't put them at the top. Some Bungie employees were planning on making the Master Chief a robot in Halo 3 before they were stopped. I'd put them just under the books... --[[User talk:Sangheili Commando 021: Fluffball Gato|Sangheili Commando 021: Fluffball Gato]] 00:49, October 31, 2009 (UTC)
-:The authors of the books... Where do you think they get their canon information from? <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><b>[[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] [[User:DavidJCobb|<span style="color:#000;position:relative;top:.15em">DavidJCobb&nbsp;</span>]]</b></span> 02:07, October 31, 2009 (UTC)
-::P.S. The [[Halo Story Bible]] is written by Bungie employees, so don't even try that as a loophole to my rhetorical question. <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><b>[[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] [[User:DavidJCobb|<span style="color:#000;position:relative;top:.15em">DavidJCobb&nbsp;</span>]]</b></span> 02:07, October 31, 2009 (UTC)
-== Opinion ==
+:::::{{Neutral}} Would you happen to have any links handy we could use as references? --[[User:Jugus|Jugus]] ([[User talk:Jugus|talk]]) 00:25, 14 October 2016 (EDT)
-For the record, the current policy isn't the way I currently would have written it.
-*Statements from authors don't trump everything. They created the games, but they can't change them once they're gold. If a Bungie representative says in 2002 that Johnson survives Halo 1, he's simply wrong; anyone who's played the game on Legendary knows he dies.
-**One way of looking at it is that H1 is in a slightly alternate universe from the later games, which until <s>FS</s> E3 2003 was released was the only Halo universe we had access to.
-**One reason to accept Bungie statements over canon is if they represent the intent to change that aspect of canon; but even then, it shouldn't be considered completely canon until it's part of a published story.
-*Story-telling media like games, novels and audio dramas should trump supplementary/background material like manuals, websites, strategy guides and flavor texts.
-**An exception might be if the background material resolves a contradiction that previously existed; sort of a tiebreaker vote.
-*When there's a contradiction, the "cost" of resolving it one way or the other should be considered. GoO says (IIRC) that there were no second-generation Spartan IIs and no augmentation casualties among the Spartan IIIs; but if you accept that, the ilovebees audio drama can't have happened at all (no Melissa), whereas it doesn't really affect GoO's plot if just that passage is considered a mistake.
-*While the games should be the top level, actual game mechanics should be excluded from this; they're too often ridiculous, and they're not even consistent between games.
-**Also, some non-gameplay things like the Megg are clearly out-of-story; while things like the Thirsty Grunt and H1's Legendary ending are more ambiguous.
-***About GoO versus ilovebees, one was a book, and the other was an advertisement. A similar contradiction happened when the Believe Campaign showed Spartan 117 in a battle that he never took place in.(Quirel)
---[[User:Andrew Nagy|Andrew Nagy]] 21:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
-:About GoO versus ilovebees, one was a book, and the other was an advertisement. A similar contradiction happened when the Believe Campaign showed Spartan 117 in a battle that he never took place in.(Quirel) --{{unsigned|72.251.74.7| at 20:55, March 7, 2009.}}
-::Not seeing the relevance. And it's an advertisement only in a technical sense; it's also an independent narrative that adds substantially to the universe. --[[User talk:Andrew Nagy|Andrew Nagy]] 19:02, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
-== Employees? ==
+:Here: https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/db05ce78845f4120b062c50816008e5d/topics/should-the-games-still-be-highest-canon/4f1af3e4-3a6e-455e-88de-19f18550c672/posts?page=2#post30
-Does anyone have a source that employee claims are canon?  To me it makes no sense to use that system of canon, because if employees say things that don't make sense or seem contradictory then there's nothing for the fans to do.  If we see something in a game that is a contradiction, then we can always find an explanation.  For example, I've always found the claim that only 200 millions survive on Earth after the invasion to be extremely dubious so I have assumed that it must be the result of propaganda.
-:I don't have an answer, [[User:CaptainZoidberg]], but I would ask you to please sign any edits you make to talk pages. When you edit a page, you can sign it by typing four tildes in a row (<code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>); when you save the edit, the tildes will automatically be replaced with your username and the date that you made the edit. This is useful on talk pages, as it allows us to know what was said when by whom without having to dig through the entire edit history. <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><b>[[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] [[User:DavidJCobb|<span style="color:#000;position:relative;top:.15em">DavidJCobb&nbsp;</span>]]</b></span> 23:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
+:Grim called them the "squishiest" to add in. Agreeing to my comment.
-== Halo Encyclopedia's Canoness ==
+:I first heard of semi-ruling from the Catalog in PMs. But unless he wants me to give his Gamertag. Might be best to refrain from quoting it.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 03:50, 14 October 2016 (EDT)
-Not sure if thats a word but...
+:{{Support}} Doubt my opinon matters since everyone has said it but meh, I agree. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 05:46, 14 October 2016 (EDT)
-anyways, the HE has a wealth of new info, but a large number of mistakes regarding information we already knew. My question is,
-do we consider the new info canon, or do we wait for more conmirmation? [[User talk:Jabberwockxeno|Jabberwockxeno]] 00:04, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
-:The word's "canonicity", and yes, I needed Dictionary.com to look it up. I thought it was "canonicality", which doesn't exactly roll off the tongue lol. Anyway, I suppose it depends on how big the mistakes are, but in general, I'd recommend waiting for additional confirmation. <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><b>[[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] [[User:DavidJCobb|<span style="color:#000;position:relative;top:.15em">DavidJCobb&nbsp;</span>]]</b></span> 00:52, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
+:{{Oppose}} I disagree. It's a good way to deal with contradictions. [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 19:03, 16 July 2018 (EDT)
-::I thought is was canonicty to, but I couldent find it... anyways, there are some timeline errors, wrong pictures in relation   to the text (it shows the scout helmet intsead of the rouge helmet in the rouge entry for example.)etc. the book is one of the coolest things I have ever read though, pick it up if you can. [[User talk:Jabberwockxeno|Jabberwockxeno]] 02:21, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
+==The Non Canon Section==
+Very useful to have the items listed like this so we know. That being said, I recommend you add All Hail and The Cost to that list. Thanks!--[[User:AdmiralPedro1stFleet|AdmiralPedro1stFleet]] ([[User talk:AdmiralPedro1stFleet|talk]]) 12:53, October 29, 2020 (EDT)
-:::To illustrate how truly terrible the Encyclopedia is at keeping canon sacred, I need only state that it said that the cannon of a Scarab walker could be detached and used as a hand-held gun. (like H2's famed Scarab Gun). This book is bull. Read its talk page for a list of errors and discussion of its canon.--[[User talk:Nerfherder1428|Nerfherder1428]] 19:30, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
+Piggybacking off this section, Showtime's Halo TV show ought to have a special note clarifying that the Silver Timeline is its own separate canon. Also a few things are missing and need to be included in the list! (Rise of Atriox comic, Halo Infinite Memory Agent, Rubicon Protocol, Outcasts, and the 2022 Encyclopedia) [[User:Lord Susto|<span style="color:orange">Lord Susto</span>]] 14:43, September 27, 2022 (EDT)
-::::Regardless of how many errors it has, every information in Encyclopedia will be considered as canon info unless of course it contradicts the established superior canon.- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 19:34, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
+:Looks like [[User:CMDR RileySV|Riley]]'s just seen to those specified updates for you. However, I definitely think this policy needs a fairly big update, especially with the recent introduction [[Template:Status]], and of "Apocrypha" as a label for content that's not-really-canon-but-sort-of-is, like marketing material and whatnot. I feel like a lot of things currently on the "Canon" list, for instance ilovebees and Memory Agent, should probably exist under that banner.
-Oddly, I find that the bit about the scarab gun that it gives reasonable. We already know that the scarab's main cannon (the H3 one, but it clearly states that the two scarabs are different models.)Is an enlarged version of the hunter’s main canon. Assuming this, it would be able to be detached. It says NOTHING about it able to be hand-held; it just says portable, which can mean it can be moved, not necessarily carried. [[User talk:Jabberwockxeno|Jabberwockxeno]] 17:29, October 26, 2009 (UTC)
+:{{User:Dab1001/Sig2}} 21:06, September 27, 2022 (EDT)
-:I'd put the Encyclopedia's status at the bottom of the barrel... But everybody who has read through the HE's Talk Page already knows my opinion... very well.--[[User talk:Sangheili Commando 021: Fluffball Gato|Sangheili Commando 021: Fluffball Gato]] 00:47, October 31, 2009 (UTC)