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Forum:Brutes Should NOT Join Elite Covenant Remnant Factions: Difference between revisions
Forum:Brutes Should NOT Join Elite Covenant Remnant Factions (view source)
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:::* -Alright, I'll try to organize my sources better, but my sources are correct and accurate. You do understand how hard it will be for me to read through Contact Harvest, Broken Circle, ect and dig up the exact quotes, right?[[User:SpartanEdit0r|SpartanEdit0r]] ([[User talk:SpartanEdit0r|talk]]) 23:01, 28 August 2015 (EDT) | :::* -Alright, I'll try to organize my sources better, but my sources are correct and accurate. You do understand how hard it will be for me to read through Contact Harvest, Broken Circle, ect and dig up the exact quotes, right?[[User:SpartanEdit0r|SpartanEdit0r]] ([[User talk:SpartanEdit0r|talk]]) 23:01, 28 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
::::That's not Doisac, and I am not saying they didn't have a rivalry, but your entire argument hinges on the idea that everyone hates everyone. Some individuals like Lydus and Ayit work with their peoples enemies to help their own people or just because they are sociopaths and want wealth, to hinge on the idea that grudges will always be held will mean the Humans and the Sangheili will never ally, which has already happened. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] ([[User talk:Alertfiend|talk]]) 23:10, 28 August 2015 (EDT) | :::::That's not Doisac, and I am not saying they didn't have a rivalry, but your entire argument hinges on the idea that everyone hates everyone. Some individuals like Lydus and Ayit work with their peoples enemies to help their own people or just because they are sociopaths and want wealth, to hinge on the idea that grudges will always be held will mean the Humans and the Sangheili will never ally, which has already happened. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] ([[User talk:Alertfiend|talk]]) 23:10, 28 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
:::::The reason there is such an entirity, is because the whole race was affected by the great schism. In Halo 2 the prophets ordered the Brutes to kill ALL the Elites on sight, and kick them ALL out of the Covenant. There would be no way for an Elite or Brute not to be affected by that unless they were living under a rock. Just like how events in our world when one group commits atrocities to another its not going to be easy for both groups to reconcile. How well do you think Israeli's would react to a neo-Nazi living in Jerusalem? Probably not very well and I imagine the same would apply with Brutes living on Sanghellios. You can rightly make the claim the Brutes and Elite's aren't single-minded, but after the Brutes murdered numerous Elites on High Charity, Delta Halo, New Mombasa, across the Covenant fleets and then ATE their corpses after slaying them, good luck reconciling that. | ::::::The reason there is such an entirity, is because the whole race was affected by the great schism. In Halo 2 the prophets ordered the Brutes to kill ALL the Elites on sight, and kick them ALL out of the Covenant. There would be no way for an Elite or Brute not to be affected by that unless they were living under a rock. Just like how events in our world when one group commits atrocities to another its not going to be easy for both groups to reconcile. How well do you think Israeli's would react to a neo-Nazi living in Jerusalem? Probably not very well and I imagine the same would apply with Brutes living on Sanghellios. You can rightly make the claim the Brutes and Elite's aren't single-minded, but after the Brutes murdered numerous Elites on High Charity, Delta Halo, New Mombasa, across the Covenant fleets and then ATE their corpses after slaying them, good luck reconciling that. | ||
:::::Jul (or any Elite) would have to find it in their heart to make peace with rival Elites (the Arbiter is a rival of Jul) first, their fellow kins would be easy to forgive as Elites have strong kinships. Then they would have to make peace with the Humans who have killed many of their people. Then after they have found it in them to make peace with fellow Elites and Humans, THEN maybe they could make peace with Brutes, who betrayed and back stabbed their fellow kin in cold blood (unlike humans who fought a face to face war). | ::::::Jul (or any Elite) would have to find it in their heart to make peace with rival Elites (the Arbiter is a rival of Jul) first, their fellow kins would be easy to forgive as Elites have strong kinships. Then they would have to make peace with the Humans who have killed many of their people. Then after they have found it in them to make peace with fellow Elites and Humans, THEN maybe they could make peace with Brutes, who betrayed and back stabbed their fellow kin in cold blood (unlike humans who fought a face to face war). | ||
:::::Until we see Jul forgiving the Arbiter and Humans, and making peace with them. He won't be making peace with the Brutes who are on the top of every Elite's hate list (if they were awake at any point during Halo 2's events)[[User:SpartanEdit0r|SpartanEdit0r]] ([[User talk:SpartanEdit0r|talk]]) 23:36, 28 August 2015 (EDT) | ::::::Until we see Jul forgiving the Arbiter and Humans, and making peace with them. He won't be making peace with the Brutes who are on the top of every Elite's hate list (if they were awake at any point during Halo 2's events)[[User:SpartanEdit0r|SpartanEdit0r]] ([[User talk:SpartanEdit0r|talk]]) 23:36, 28 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
YES, THEY CAN AND HAVE. | YES, THEY CAN AND HAVE. | ||
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There are also probably plenty of Brutes who'd join up willingly as mercenaries - what reason do the traditionally un-pious Jackals have to work with Jul? Because he's paying. We know that the Brutes are themselves split along clan lines - to continue feuds even older than their grudge against the Elites, is it impossible to think some would turn to Mdama for weapons and ships, in exchange for being some battlefiend hired muscle? I doubt it. | There are also probably plenty of Brutes who'd join up willingly as mercenaries - what reason do the traditionally un-pious Jackals have to work with Jul? Because he's paying. We know that the Brutes are themselves split along clan lines - to continue feuds even older than their grudge against the Elites, is it impossible to think some would turn to Mdama for weapons and ships, in exchange for being some battlefiend hired muscle? I doubt it. | ||
And addressing your last remark: I'm not the one disregarding canonical sources. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[ | And addressing your last remark: I'm not the one disregarding canonical sources. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 21:45, 28 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
This criticism is quite strange, because it seems to be very ignorant of what the UNSC-SoS alliance has to say for its claims. | |||
"''What species would want to join forces with a species that is genociding their species?''" | |||
Why this has to be asked is confusing me. Some humans were able to forgive some Elites, and these Elites renewed their beliefs in humans. This is after 27 years of genocidal war and bitterness. As far as I can see, any post war reconciliation that follows that will not outclass that in terms of how miraculous it is, including Brutes and Elites forgiving each other. In other words, given that humans and Elites are moving forward together, anything can happen now regarding anyone else including Grunts and Jackals, Drones and Huragok and Elites and Prophets. | |||
There's several other things wrong here as well. You're acting like these species are forming, or have formed, monolithic civilizations around themselves. This is not true and was not implied in the Return. The Return said that some Sangheili shipmasters continued the fight wherever they could find Brutes, but not all, and this is consistent with the image now of Sangheili civilization being fragmented into several different factions (And they haven't attacked Doisac nor are being very successful fighting the Brutes as late as 2558; factual error on your part there I'm afraid). There is no "ALL Elites" doing anything with regards to any activity post war. It's very easy for Elites to accept Brutes over other Elites given the rather obvious ideological divide between these factions. Brutes may be brutes, but heretics are heretics. For Thel's faction, I don't think species is going to matter for them given that they are rather welcoming of humans now. | |||
"''Before somone says "not all members of a species will think the same way" keep in mind than in Halo 2, when the Great Schism happened, Brutes started killing ALL, Elites.''" | |||
No, not all members will think the same way. Your attempts to override some of the most basic aspects of reality are not working. Are all Brutes warriors? Are all Elites? The Covenant is a very integrated society that almost treats its species like ethnicities, as opposed to sovereign nations. There's Brutes and Elites all over the shop, mostly civilian. Yes, there would probably have been race riots, but even in race riots there is not total conformity. These people would still have lives to take care of the next morning, which would be rather difficult if they were trying to murder everyone of the opposing species. | |||
"''It would not make sense for the Elites team up with the Brutes, who have had their entire species kicked out of the Covenant by the Brutes and countless betrayed/murdered in cold blood (Elites have a strong sense of kinship, and are angered when fellow brothers are betrayed) to forgive and work along side them.''" | |||
Or, many Elites realized that after the genocide of humans they really didn't have a leg to stand on with regards to accusing anyone of similar crimes? Perhaps in the war to determine the future of the Covenant itself, Jul and Thel will do anything to win including making peace with former enemies from past meaningless disputes? | |||
"''Its good to see recent Halo novels such as Halo: Broken Circle aknowledge the hatred between the two species and properly understand the events of the Great Schism.''" | |||
This is the same novel that has a friendship between a Sangheili Councilor and a Prophet Minister endure through the Schism even in spite of the mainstream Prophets aligning with Truth and Tartarus. I don't think it really supports your case, as it suggests individuality meaning something. | |||
I feel as though I could write a similar diatribe for why it is canonically impossible for humans and Sangheili to team up using all the same arguments. It would be wrong though, just like this one is wrong. -[[User:Anton|Anton]] ([[User talk:Anton|talk]]) 19:37, 14 September 2015 (EDT) | |||