Talk:Point-defense gun
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Image[edit]
This was reported:
"you can get a picture of the gun in the ark level when the dawn lands"
If anyone can obtain a screenshot and upload it that'd be great. -- Manticore Manticore is a Halopedia administrator. Talk | Contributions 13:47, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
You can see them in the new Aegis Fate picture. Ive circled it so you know where it is when you view it in the theater mode. -Anonymous
These aren't the 50mm guns, we don't know waht the are, they are FAR to big to be 50mm point defence guns... --Ajax 013 21:20, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Too Big? How so? I don't seem to remember anything mentioning a specific size to these guns. You could even compare these to the 50mm anti-tank guns of World War Two. Technology has advanced several centuries which may allow them to be rapidly fired/rapidly reloaded. Unless you were thinking of .50 Caliber guns which are different however...
No i'm comparing them to 50mm guns i know of and have seen first hand, and those are FAR to big. The guns are bigger than Pelicans, which brings me to another point, they are apparently air portable by Pelicans, which in this case, like i said, much bigger (compare it to the Pelican/Longsword bays, its the same size as them. --Ajax 013 22:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Looking at those image, the guns look almost as big as half of one of those door panels, not bigger. Air portable you say? Like AIE-486H HMG portable? Or portable as in being able to lash on a few cables and towing it like a CH-47F Chinook towing an artillery peice? As far as I know, either these are the 50mm PDGs or you halopedians need to re-do some of the armaments on your Forward Unto Dawn and Aegis Fate articles until you can confirm what these guns actually are. Just trying to help out.
Those, a MAC Cannon and what i belive to be Archer Missle pods are the only weaponry on the Foward Unto Dawn on the final part of Halo, either those are 50mm PDGs or there WAY too small. Spartan 112 06:05, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
It was said they were air portable, as in attached to the rear of the Pelican on the magnetic locks for vehicles but as you can see, those are much much large, being a similar size to a longsword. --Ajax 013 12:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
While they may be too small, I still believe they're 50mm PDGs. If you notice they appear to be able to rotate and move in reaction to closer moving aircraft (i.e. they'd be able to take point defense by pinpointing smaller targets and destroying them efficiently). Also, judging by what today's 50mm guns look like, and adding 500+ years to that, I'd say they're an accurate representation albeit quite large. I noticed these on the Forward Unto Dawn and immediately thought they were the point defense guns.
There may be some continuity issues with the books and the actual games, but if I remember correctly, we consider the games as higher canon over the novels. But, I could be wrong, and maybe they're not the PDGs, but I really think they are. BTW, here's a current Point Defense System in the US Navy (note the similar construction as what you see on the Aegis Fate). CIWS -- Dukester101 TALK 12:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
They might be point defense guns, but they sure as heck aren't 50mm. 50mm is like 1.9 inches or so. Now if it was a 50cm gun, then I could believe it, but the barrels are too big to be 50mm guns. As you can see here [[1]] and here [[2]], they are far too big in relation to the camera to be 50mm.-Kongurous 01:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
The books call them chain-guns, but they look more like revolving cannons, similar to the Vulcan cannon derivative used in the real-life Phalanx CIWS. I would expect these 50mm point defense weapons, if they are rotary cannons) to have multiple 50mm barrels mounted in a circular pattern, similar to the Gatling gun's, and would make the combined barrels seem to be a single thick barrel from a distance and/or in poor resolution. There are two possibilities that I would consider, A.) The Pillar of Autumn would have been still slightly older then the new In Amber Clad or Forward Unto Dawn and would no longer have had the most up-to-date systems (taking into account her overhaul, which most likely took place before either frigate was commissioned), and her point-defense systems may have differed in size and make then the Forward Unto Dawn's and therefore might have been transportable by a Pelican. I think it is shown in the games quite well that even during the war, human weaponry still advanced; or B.) The books are great to read and fascinating, but lets face it, no offense, but the authors are not ordinance experts, as that is not their job. Their job is to entertain, not educate, and they accomplish this. In The Fall of Reach, the use of the CIWS systems against the Seraph fighters at the Battle of Reach makes them sound more like rotary cannons then chain guns (due to the fact that they are described as spewing out thousands of shells in a few seconds, a feat that is not unheard of in some MODERN chain guns, but points me at least to rotary cannons. Now around 500 years of advancement may have sped up chain gun's designs, but I would still lean to rotary cannons) and that is what appears to be in the photos of all the frigates (where they are more visible). Having rotary cannons as point defense weapons would also eliminate the number of mounts needed to effectively cover the ship, as their rate of fire makes up for their numbers (for example, the modern Phalanx mounts can fire around 75 rounds a SECOND and most modern warships carry only a few of these), and would allow for the frigates to carry only a few. Just a suggestion.SAWGunner89 04:25, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
They're the 50 mm cannons. When you're talking about the size of a gun, things like "50 mm" or "16 inch" doesn't refer to the length of the barrel, it refers to the diameter of the bore in the barrel. Which means those guns are probably just right. And regardless of that, it's obvious they're intended for point defense.
Hate to say, I told you so Ajax
76.7.108.86 03:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
No, those cannons are far too big to be the 50mm defense cannons. If you go in theatre mode and time how long it takes to scale vertically up the side of the Elephant and compare that to how long it takes to do the same near the side of those guns, they are a lot bigger. Now, I'm no fool, I know the 50mm refers to the calibre of shell fired, but if the gun is larger than the Elephant (in height) and you look at how thick the barrels are, there is no way that it fires 50mm. I mean, the scorpion's main gun is a LOT smaller and that fires 90mm shells. I'm not going to change anything because there isn't any solid evidence either way, but just raising the point.
Diaboy 16:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
The entire universe has Rampant missproportions, misscontinuity and unrealism this is likely another example. to me, 400-1000 rpm seems like a patheticaly low ROF for a point defence system. modern CIWS with rotary cannons such as the M61 Vulcan at around 6000-6600 rpm with 20mm rounds or a GAU8 Avenger at 4200 rpm wiht 30mm rounds this would easily outgun one of these 50mm weapons and hold substantialy more ammo in the same space and have a much higher hit rate. these unrealisms and steps backward in weapons technology are what i most dislike about Halo. Agent Tasmania 05:23, September 14, 2009 (UTC)
I think the guns on the side of frigates are the 50mm PD Guns because they are the only form of point defense (if you dont include the archer pods) on the frigate. *Darb 013 18:43, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
- So the defense rail guns just don't exist?--For the Swarm! 20:20, September 20, 2010 (UTC)
Origins Part 2[edit]
I am sure, but it's been a while since I've seen Halo Legends, that there is a scene in there where a CCS Battle cruiser is engaging a Halcyon class cruiser. I think the CCS lauches Seraphs and the Halcyon counters with 50mm's. I could be wrong though but could someone confirm that? And if so, would they be able to put in a picture of it. I would but I have no darn idea how to take a picture of a movie and put it online.......I'm a loser, I know. --Rprince418 15:54, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
Land also?[edit]
Could the PDGs also be used for land or would that be a whole different thing altogether? Darb 013 23:50, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
- We see either the Grafton or the Saratoga using it's weapons to attack Covenant forces on the ground in Tip of the Spear.--For the Swarm! 20:32, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
Ship's weapons in Halo Reach.[edit]
Yeeeeeah, those turreted weapons on Anchor 9, Savannah, and the Pillar of Autumn are simply to big to be a mere 50 mm. These guns are bigger than the turrets on Fletcher class destroyers in WW2 and those bastards sported 5 inch guns (127mm). While it is still a PDG, it's simply too massive to be a mere 50 mm. Probably a retcon.--For the Swarm! 02:59, September 30, 2010 (UTC)
M9109 and starship point defense guns?[edit]
Where was it stated that all ship-mounted 50mm point defense guns are designated M9109 ASW/AC? From what I understand, the Reach manual only confirms that the Longsword's weapons have that designation, so how can we know it's the same weapon as the ones on larger starships? If it's indeed true that we don't have anything to make the connection between the starship point defense guns and the Longsword's turrets beside the caliber, I think the Longsword's guns should go in their own separate article while this one would still be called "Point defense gun". Correct me if I've missed something though. --Jugus (Talk | Contribs) 17:31, 31 October 2010 (EDT)
- I made an assumption based on the inclusion of "MLA", and thought they would be the same weapon. Obviously I'm an idiot. :P -- Specops306 Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek 18:15, 31 October 2010 (EDT)
Split?[edit]
According to this image, the point defense weapons on a UNSC frigate are railguns. I don't think the method of operation of the 50mm point defense gun has ever been specified, but for me, it always seemed more like a conventional, chemical-based weapon. The weapon's caliber would also suggest this; for a railgun intended for point defense, 50mm seems like a massive caliber. It could be that the guns on UNSC frigates (at least the Halo 3 model) are railguns, while the regular point defense guns operate on a different principle. If this is true, they should be split to avoid confusion since this page seems to be about a single weapon rather than all different kinds of point defense guns. --Jugus (Talk | Contribs) 11:05, 24 January 2011 (EST)
At this point I've come to agree that there have been many different types of point defense guns mentioned throughout the halo universe. There should probably be a list of the different variants or a change to this page to make the generalization of them as a whole.--UNSCSILVERSTREAK 02:17, 27 May 2011 (EDT)
Point Defense as Offense/Defense[edit]
It has been noted that the point defense gun is used primarily as a defensive weapon against single ships and missles, but now I have seen that they may also be used in an offensive role against larger targets. This can be seen when the frigate Savannah engages the Ardent Prayer during Operation:UPPERCUT and on Condemned; the frigate is laying down fire on another light capital warship (covenant corvette). So should the page mention that the point defense gun can be used, at least under the right circumstances, in an offensive role against at least light capital warships? Should it also be noted that other variants and sizes of point defense guns may exist to fulfill different roles?--UNSCSILVERSTREAK 00:10, 4 April 2011 (EDT)
- It is used 'primarily' as a defense gun. The reason the Savannah was using the point defense guns against the corvette was that corvettes have no shields, but even then, they were virtually ineffective, it was more of a distraction than anything. To use those in ship to ship combat is, as obvious from the fate of the Savannah, suicidal. DarkbelowHGR 06:20, 4 April 2011 (EDT)
That does'nt change the fact, though, that the heavy frigates are laying down fire on the corvettes in an offensive manner. Suicidal as it is, frigates, have at least shown the capability to use their guns to lay down suppresive fire in this particular role. If this tactic were to be used against heavier capital ships is most unlikely, though. --UNSCSILVERSTREAK 00:32, 1 May 2011 (EDT)
- I'd say it just lends support to the arguments near the top that the mounts we can see aren't anything like 50mm. In fact using rough scaling from the frigates stated length you get a rather close match for 400ish mm battleship caliber weapons. Given the scale in relation to the vessel the weapons being medium caliber (compared to a MAC) "Dual purpose" mounts makes the most sense to me. We know Deck guns/mid sized EM weapons exist and they appear to be showing up more and more with each passing game. The much smaller true "PD" mounts could simply be concealed behind armored doors or the like. Speculation though, but I don't buy for a second that the large mounts being used against ships in the game are 50mm. 174.98.251.42 06:26, 16 September 2013 (EDT)