View source for Forum:Subtracting Canon - Brian Reed, Catalog, etc.

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Despite my absence I've been keeping track of things from behind the scenes and lately I've been noticing some outrageous-ness, inconsistencies, and just blatant insults. We've already had problems with past media that screwed up canon in their own special ways (Kilo-five series, Initiation, etc.). Now we have new editions that are helping to get things back on track from that era but are doing a bit too much. Now this isn't to say the Escalation series is bad, let-alone catalog should be silenced. Not at all. I like the Escalation comic series and have been purchasing every issue that has been released thus far. As for catalog, I haven't been paying to much attention to "him" nor do I even care to. But here's the problem. It seems as though recently the things 343I added to the Halo universe are a bit of a subtraction to the universe despite their intent.
{{Quote|I wish people would stop asking for status updates! :(|Nighthammer}}

...before anymore damage is done. This "Catalog" guy...I can understand that there are some mysterious that people would like to see get solved. I understand that people have so many questions. Hell, even I like to find out what happened to so and so. Great! But here's the problem, and it goes back to the old saying - ''Leave well enough alone.'' Why? Well with some of the things that Catalog has been revealing, it has been a major subtraction. For example - apparently someone asked about the whereabouts of team saber. Out of nowhere, catalog reveals that they were "killed in action" in Sept 2553. What?! Just kill them off?? Just another example of 343I doing whatever/however they like to previously established canon. Instead of just saying they were reassigned so that maybe they have a potential future story ark that may lead to their deaths, they are just killed off w/o an explanation for the sack of it. 343I needs to take better care of the Haloverse than what they are doing now. They have improved with this at first but now they seem to be going backwards. Which brings me to my next point.
{{Quote|The f*@k is this?|Halo Canon}}[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jvwviYCMOA&list=UUi3C2FXS0lp7oYVbGKTg2qA]

Let's start with the recently released issue 8 of Escalation. Don't get me wrong. The comic is alright. We finally get to see John-117 reunited with blue team. We get to explore Installation 03 a lil. We get to see that the Didact did indeed survive. However, the comic was a bit of a subtraction. First off, Brian Reed started off okay with issue 7 and demonstrated that he has some writing potential. But then he (or 343I for that matter) took a step backwards. The reuniting of blue team was hardly moving - and no explanation for why their armor is just as modified as John's. And then he kills off team black. First off, Team black's names, call-signs, and whereabouts were revealed by catalog a lil while back. That was great to hear. But now we jump into their off screen, unnecessary deaths. Why bring them back only to kill them off?? How was it so easy for blue team to dispatch the prometheans yet black team couldn't? It would've been better for them to have met up with blue team. Than maybe we could have gotten an explanation as to how they got off line installation 1-4! Oh, I guess 343I can careless about that! Makes no sense to me. And then blue team walks into the composer's abyss. Some of you already know how I feel about these science-fantasy elements that I cannot stand in the halo series (because they feel out of place). Overall I wasn't entirely satisfied w/ this issue. In fact this is a sign that things are about to get worst the next go around. 

Overall 343I needs to step their game up. They need to place more emphasis on canon and show that they know what they are doing rather than coming across as amateurish. Come up with explanations for things, stop killing off characters for the heck of it, stop with the inconsistencies, and start proofreading everything before its shipped out the door. Granted, I like the progress they are making with some of the new media they're getting ready to release. I like the remastered cut-scenes for Halo 2, Nightfall is looking good, and I'm considering purchasing the MC collection (if I decide to purchase the Xbox One). Still, 343I needs to pay attention to the small things in Halo and manage them better. That's all I ask.

Be minded this is just my opinion and a bit of a rant so don't take it personal if you disagree with anything I have to say.--'''''[[User:Killamin7|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamin7</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamin7|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamin7|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 06:21, 26 July 2014 (EDT)

==Comments==
Any comments, rebuttals? Feel free to post them here.--'''''[[User:Killamin7|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamin7</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamin7|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamin7|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 06:21, 26 July 2014 (EDT)

:I'm inclined to agree, for the most part. For years now fans have been asking for an update on Saber and Gamma Company in general and this is what we get? It feels like an insult. Same with Black, though I'd reckon they were never anyone's favorite - the dysfunctional Spartan team whose mission gets compromised over a teenage romance. However, they were still somewhat fleshed out characters with their own short story and comic series, and killing them off in such a offhanded manner was uncalled for. Just a while ago Bonnie Ross said this:

:''"We ... had a tendency to kill all of our characters besides Master Chief. We are not Game of Thrones, and we actually want to make sure going forward we have a larger cast of characters with which to tell stories."''

:Now, though? 343's gaining up on GRRM in just a few days. Looks like their "larger cast of characters" is just those they've come up with over the past couple of years.--[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 07:24, 26 July 2014 (EDT)

::I have to agree as well. The Catalog can give out some great information, like [[Rentus]] or where "average" Kig-Yar are from. However, just mentioning that major novel characters were killed off-screen, like Saber and Byrne, is getting to be a bit much. The Catalog shouldn't answer questions relating to character statuses if you ask me. And Team Black getting suddenly killed off really annoyed me. At least use nameless Spartan-IVs, rather than established Spartan-IIs which are rare as it is. At least Game of Thrones generally kills off its major-recurring characters "on-screen". - [[User:NightHammer|NightHammer]] ([[User talk:NightHammer|talk]]) 09:10, 26 July 2014 (EDT)

:::Exactly. That's the least they can do, just showing them fighting whoever/whatever and getting killed on-screen. Just explain their deaths. It's silly how they killed off black team so quickly after revealing more about them. They even went as far as '''decapitating''' one of the members! When I saw that, I'm was just like, really? They must not like black team. They could have did different, use some Spartan-IV's (since 343I likes to kill them off too) and leave it at that. As for Bonnie Ross, Frank O Connor, etc., they always seem to contradict themselves in some way. Usually what they say goes in one ear and out the other with me. Basically I put it like this - they just telling us what we want to hear but their actions speak differently. Bonnie can say she/they want a larger cast of characters but surely that's not the case if you swatting them like flies. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they kill off Red Team from the SoF. But they won't kill off Sarah Palmer though... --'''''[[User:Killamin7|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamin7</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamin7|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamin7|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 11:11, 26 July 2014 (EDT)
::::I'm just now finding out some of this stuff. I was gone for a bit and I had no idea until your post that some of these characters had been killed. But what really irked me was killing Black Team. They basically re-introduced them to be killed, turning them into nothing more than redshirt characters. So pointless...--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 11:18, 26 July 2014 (EDT)

:::::It surprisingly doesn't bother me. Maybe I'm being a little biased since I never really grew attached to Team Black or any SPARTAN-IIIs for that matter.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 12:34, 26 July 2014 (EDT)

::::::I'm tired of them killing off Spartans, full-stop. I understand the rationale - build up how great X is, introduce Y who is able to kill X to increase their threat. But what it actually does is reduce the profile of X instead, and that is something I don't like for the S-IIs.  I feel like 343i realised they had an unruly amount of living Spartan-IIs for the Master Chief to be "one of the last", and by killing them or sending them into space that increases the profile for the Chief, which was the same rationale for originally making him ''the'' last. I could tolerate them being S-IIIs - heck, even Saber, who I actually grew attached to. I was hoping Tom and Lucy could lead their little trio to be capable Spartans in the post-war era. So much for that. And especially the S-IVs, who have shown potential but little proficiency. But the IIs...every one of them is supposed to be the stuff of myth and legend. When one goes down, it has to be like Sam or Will - taking a disproportionate number with them. Or James and Beta Red - leaving ambiguity. You know they're dead, but the potential for ''hope'' remains.
::::::I don't mind Catalog confirming things like concepts or places, but some of the things that it is confirming really should be told as stories. If you're going to kill of Byrne, make it a story - show, don't tell. If you're killing Saber, show us how it happened, don't just say it did. They feel like wasted opportunities to me.-- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 21:02, 26 July 2014 (EDT)

:::::::And that's what I mean by subtrating canon - wasting opporturnites thus reducing the expansion of canon. I was hoping to see what some of these SIII's look like such as Olivia, but nooooo. Instead they are knocked off the list and never heard from ever again. Not a good look for 343I. Perhaps they may explain their deaths later on down the line but I highly doubt it considering how "simple" it was for 343I to write them off. Let's just hope we don't get anymore upsetting news that may further screw up canon.--'''''[[User:Killamin7|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamin7</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamin7|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamin7|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 09:01, 28 July 2014 (EDT)

I agree with some of what's said, but consider that it may be that for reasons unknown to us, they may not want to revisit certain characters or events. We ask what the circumstances are, they tell us, and we get mixed feelings over it. But to say something is 'subtracting from canon'? Canon, as far as I use the term, is what is official according to the property owner. Not what's comfortable or expected by me. Do I like Spartan team Black gone? Those other S-IIIs? Not really, but they are gone. That's canon now. In real life, we'd often like to visit a place or see people but sudden circumstances can render a place or a person gone without warning and in violation of our wishes. Just because something has a 'potential' future use, doesn't mean it needs to see use. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 10:24, 28 July 2014 (EDT)

:Those are my thoughts exactly. I try not to look at fiction from an objective, deconstructive standpoint, (ironic because my career is in editing and technical writing) but I occasionally put on my Doylist hat. While I certainly believe it tends to be more effective to kill important characters "on-screen", sometimes doing so just won't work within the context of a given story. Fans wanted to know what happened to Byrne and Team Saber; 343i obviously had no plans for the characters going forward so they had them all die in combat. That may not be as compelling as depicting their deaths in a narrative work but it's better than Catalog saying, "Information regarding [subject] is stored stored in inaccessible [frumentarii] cores," providing us with no closure whatsoever. 

:A ''lot'' of people have asked, "Why couldn't 343i/Brian Reed have killed some nameless SPARTAN-IVs?" Frankly, that question answers itself. The deaths of some S-IV redshirts would have no real emotional impact for the fans or for the Chief. Spartan Black was the most reasonable choice for two reasons: A) they're SPARTAN-IIs so their deaths truly matter in- and out-of-universe; and B) while they're pretty well-liked they're nobody's favorite S-IIs. Going back to my first point, I would certainly like to see Team Black's end fleshed out, whether through helmet-cam footage in Issue #9 or even a new short story. Nonetheless, I'm willing to accept their demise because it works from an in-universe perspective. What 343 Industries decide to do with the story is what counts, regardless of what direction I would prefer them to take with it. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our vengeance is at hand.'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 11:55, 28 July 2014 (EDT)

I do agree that "subtracting canon" isn't necessarily the right terminology here; mine and a lot of other people's beef has definitely got more to do with individual preferences on where the fiction should go. But there's definitely a sense that 343i is "culling" characters they deem extraneous and the means by which they're doing this isn't necessarily the best way to go about it. Frankly I'm quite surprised about how popular Black seems to have been — I was under the impression ''Blood Line'' wasn't that well-liked because of the aforementioned melodrama going on and Black's fanon-ish aspects (super secret team with ''black'' armor, etc.), though said aspects were nowhere as egregious as with ''[[Headhunters (short story)|Headhunters]]'' (which is put together like pure fan fiction).

I think part of why Black met such an unceremonious demise may have been the fact they were pretty much entirely a single writer's baby: Fred van Lente carved his own little comfortable corner of the universe and stayed there, so Black never had any impact on the setting at large. And partly for that reason maybe 343i's writers weren't comfortable with continuing Black's story; because the team was so much embodied in a single author. Blue Team and the rest of the formerly "expanded universe" core cast (like Halsey and co.), while still very much Nylund's creations, have transcended that sort of status by virtue of having been a staple of the major events of the ''Halo'' universe from the start. Though depending on 343i's philosophy going forward in regard to John's uniqueness, even Blue may not be safe. But I try to remain hopeful we'll finally see them realized in a game.

As for closure, I for one would prefer "Information regarding [subject] is stored stored in inaccessible [frumentarii] cores" (or simply silence) to statements that basically amount to "we don't care about these characters you like, will you now stop asking, okay?" Even if 343i isn't planning on doing anything with them in the immediate future, it's better to live in the (often false) hope that maybe we'll get to see them again someday than putting them down in forum posts or for cheap shock factor (as with Black). Now I'm well aware that sometimes you have to kill characters to maintain the stakes, but that should be done for a reason. It should feel like it has some sort of impact, whether it's on a single character, a larger group of characters, or even the world around them. With Black all we get is what amounts to a shrug and too many questions on why they died when Blue handled those Prometheans with no problem. One possible alternate way to handle the scene would've been to have Black save Blue from the ambush and sacrifice their lives, giving them a more dignified end. Or, if that's too much of a change, make it clear it was the Didact who killed them in his rage, reminding us of what kind of power we're dealing with and giving us more reason to be upset with our villain. But apparently this elite Spartan-II team was just gunned down by robot mooks that the story-important characters dispatch with no problem, both in gameplay and in the comic itself.

Now, I am aware Catalog did stress that Saber is not necessarily dead, though they might as well be — I interpreted the changing of their status to "KIA" as a statement that they're not planning anything for these characters but they're still not quite so outrageous as to outright kill them in a forum post. Though one still has to wonder if Catalog confused Saber with Katana since there's no context whatsoever to them being MIA or lacking "signs of life", whereas with Katana there's plenty. But still it's rather clear the SPARTAN-IIIs have been pretty much put in the freezer, probably never to be revisited (which is a great shame — seeing them intermingle with the Fours who have had normal families and upbringings has great story potential).

Finally, there's also the matter of wasted story potential and character investment others have mentioned. At the end of ''Ghosts of Onyx'', Kelly says this to the SPARTAN-IIIs: ''"Welcome to Blue, Spartans. We're going to make a great team."'' That's so wonderful and heartwarming and gets you pumped for all the Nylundian adventures they're going to get up to in the future. Then Karen Traviss happens and the excitement about the Onyx shield world falls flat, the SPARTAN-IIIs are basically forgotten about for years in favor of a new hit-and-miss cast of characters and settings, and finally, years later, we get a footnote saying they're probably dead. It hurts. It may not be objectively wrong, what's canon is canon and 343i has every right to do whatever they want with their own property, but it still hurts. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 06:57, 9 August 2014 (EDT)

:I've always said that no matter our own opinion, we don't decide what isn't canon. On the other hand, on reflection, there is a bit of leeway where Saber are concerned. Catalog's comment phrases it very specifically - the UNSC designated them KIA after no signs of life, not because their deaths were confirmed. So they may simply be missing in action. I hope it's true, because then we get the story potential of how that happened. Otherwise it really does just seem a waste. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 00:53, 10 August 2014 (EDT)