Talk:Human

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can we use it File:World-Population.png ÇЋЇŒʢ ʕЛΆΝќAegis Company File:Marines HALO wars.jpg^{βĻά βĻά βĻά}_{ɰЊάł Ḷ ḍõИШ} 01:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe...

The Sarge File:Marine Corp 1stSgt.jpg^Comm _CSV 03:15, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't go very far into the future... and, it seems to imply a very low birth rate, which isn't consistent with the Halo canon description of "massive population surges"

http://www.halowars.com/GameInfo/Timeline.aspx

Also, your 99 million births per year estimate is flawed and makes no sense. Population growth is a differential equation of the current population, so dP/dt = kP

If we use separation of variables, we get:

dt = dP/kP

int(kdt) = int(dp/P)

kT = ln(kP) + C

P = e^(kT - C)

P(T) = Ce^(kT)

So, if k is the rate of change of population, C is the initial population, and T is the time, P(T) is our population. If we accept C as 6 billion, and k as 2%, by 2553 we get a world population of 314 trillion.

I personally believe that population growth will remain exponential for a while, but in developed countries today population is starting to level out due to birth control.

--CaptainZoidberg 02:13, 8 March 2008 (UTC) in reallity the population grow up about 1,67% each year but all calculator system i try wassnt able to give me the resultCF⁰⁰¹ 01:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Holy Crap I just finished a crapload of edits on this page. Well, I may as well explain myself.

Wow. This page was missing a lot I must say. Ended up tweaking and flat out adding a lot of details concerning humanity's advancement as a species. For one thing, the scientific method alone cannot account for modern humanity's unprecedented growth rates. The 18th thru 20th Century, *not* just the 20th century alone, as initiated by the Industrial Revolution are benchmark eras behind our recent turning point as a species: with the advent of Constitution style democratic/republic societies securing the human rights necessary for us to utilize our fullest potentials.

Its the fact that nowadays we can produce veritable legions of talented minds AND efficiently back them up with the resources they need to do their job (thanks to Capitalism becoming the ever preferred economic system of the world, resulting in big-ass think tanks known as "Corporations"), as opposed to the old days when we might have had only one genius per century (whom we promptly executed for threatening our paranoid ideals). And originally all this article had to cite was the scientific method? I mean I know it helped but wait...That's it? That's when we became omgfast at improving our tech? Huh?

Also, I have to say, I was really unimpressed by the population estimate. In the form I found it in it demonstrated a gross lack of understanding concerning population growth and generational demographics within developing nations. First of all, the historically record high population counts have less to do with perceived increases in "birth rates" and way way WAY(!) more to do with *drastically* reduced death rates. You know, what with us not engaging in bloody combat that lasts for decades cause my monarch has some kind of emo love affair with your monarch and all. You know, what with us no longer getting pwn'd by no0b diseases, etc, etc. Additionally, many people have unheard of the typical demographic shifting of generations as a nation goes from "2nd World" to "1st World". While a societal demographic is still developing, its common from them to exhibit an explosion (note that explosions are known for being brief) of birth rates for the first generation or so of growth (a baby-boomer generation as its were), followed by abruptly reduced birth rates for the next generation after that demographic has brought itself up to full speed; birth rates that are generally even lower than what was happening before the baby boom hit. In other words, birth rates tend to be LOGARITHMIC across generations and are far from linear. Again, not that it matters because the real reason more people are on Earth today is because no one is dying the way they used to, giving old people more time to plot neo-communist takeovers of the entire solar system. Ahem, had no choice but to make the population section reflect that. Hope no one minds.

One last thing: Space is not finite. Us crafty humans can reorganize our architecture to make it do more with less if and when the time comes. Market forces will, as always, dictate how we develop our land, but its not like "OMG eVarY squar kILO Of daE EARTH pLuS ItS ATMOSPHERE aND ev3n The Same witH thE soL ColoniES iS occupIed sO itS NOT Even l1KE WE CAN EV3N jUS7 simply mAke a sLIGHTly talleR aPARTmENT buILding OH NOES!!!" Nah, if we develop FTL, that's not how our migration is going to be. The real reason we'll colonize isn't because we "need" to as though our very survival depends upon it, but simply because the real estate over there is cheaper and more convenient what with less bureaucrats getting in your way. And cheap convenient real estate that also happens to sit on a mountain of titanium (or what have you) = $$$ = migration efforts reminiscent of the Gold Rush. Some vague prospect of "develop FTL and colonize or face extinction" would've had nothing to do with it; more like humanity had to move lest it pay higher stupid mortgages. Planets, by definition, are pretty whopping places that are hard to literally fill up especially given creative enough architecture, hence, if in the future suddenly "we" (as in, humans) decided that "we" (as in, not the planet itself), had run out of "space" it probably has more to do with something lame like bureaucratic zoning restrictions or some other kind of idiotic red tape born of moron policy that was inhibiting our ability to reshuffle our currently utilized space in anticipation of new real estate demands. Therefore an understandable amount of unrest if suddenly the "Earth (Sol colonies included)" is perceived as "overpopulated" for precisely these shadowy reasons.

Thus, for that above plethora of mega complicated reasons, I simply added little one word adjectives as "deemed" or "considered" in front of words like "overpopulated", and words like "comfortably" or "reasonably" in front of parts concerning the Earth being unable to "sustain" humanity. Sheesh, Earth will sustain humanity for as long as market forces give us incentives not to abuse resources without considering our wallets. I'm appalled by how much the article seemingly underestimated our ability to adapt when I first found it.

Anywho, I think that about sums up everything I tinkered around with. Well ok, maybe "sums up" isn't the word for it. More like: I think that excessively rants about everything I tinkered around with.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~ --TheHolyDarkness 06:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Rampant Speculation

Seriously, this is getting beyond ridiculous. If I am not mistaken, isn't one of the policies on this page to post information that is fully canonical and not just air-headed speculation?

I was just going through this page out of curiousity, and I found these in the trivia section:

*Another less common but more likely theory is that the Forerunners were actually humans (today's humans, not in-game humans). This theory is supported by the fact that the Halos were fired approx. 100,000 years before the events of Halo: Combat Evolved (2552). Assuming that Earth is within the range of at least one Halo Installation, all sentient life on Earth would have been wiped out at about 97,448 B.C., and about 102,552 years after humanity started looking like they do today. Therefore, humanity would have died in the first firing of the Halo rings, and a new race of very similar sentient beings evolved on Earth again.

*In Halo: Combat Evolved, 343 Guilty Spark refers to human history as "a record of all our lost time", giving further evidence that humans are possible descendants of the Forerunners.'

The first quote is both strange and nonsensical. Whoever posted this claims that with the Halo Array firing 100,000 years before the events of the series, any sentient life on Earth would have been eliminated. While that is correct, the poster asserts that Humans were destroyed, and then magically reappeared in the ensuing time period. The poster has missed some very important details; Humans had already existed on Earth for over 100,000 years prior to Array firing, and they were also a part of the several million year-old Hominid lineage of Earth.

Another detail is that that the Humans had been Indexed and sent to the Ark. While their math is correct, the interpretation is not; the Human inhabitants of Earth were already safe when the Array fired, so after that event, they were returned to Earth and became as they are in the Halo trilogy. There wasn't a new "sentient species" evolving out nowhere; the original sentient inhabitants were taken away, and put back afterwards. This place has far too much loopy logic.

The second quote, however, is far more difficult to address. While it is true that this is the first revealing of Humanity's relation to the Forerunner, it is not free of contradictions. As is characteristic of Bungie, cryptic storytelling makes quotes like these having a very ambiguous context. Many factors have to be considered, which includes changing ideas within the story canon which makes earlier material dubious or irrelevant, and this one is hard to assess.

As revealed by IRIS and the Terminals, Humans were already found on Earth when the Forerunner found them, they were "chosen" above the other races for the "Mantle", and then indexed and sent to Ark, upon which they were later returned. If they were descendants of the Forerunner, then Humanity would not have existed on Earth at all until the Forerunner came, which if you look at the relevant information, did not happen. Humans were merely taken elsewhere and then returned to their homeworld.

Finally, the connection between the Forerunner and Humanity is not a simple one, as theories like these would attest. Here you have two separate species who "appear" to be identical and even related, but the exact nature of that is left ambiguous. IRIS and the "Castaway" false book seem to point us in the right direction, by saying that the Humans of Earth were altered in some subtle way, distinguising them from the rest of Earth's life.

The Forerunner saw something in Humanity that was unique, as IRIS mentioned in Server 5 that Humans provided "answers" to their own mysteries. This could mean that Humans had the same genetic markers as they did, or they found that they both came from a common ancestor or contributor, such as the Precursors mentioned so often. But all of this is a far cry from saying that the Forerunner "settled on Earth, gave up all their technology and their cilivization, and degenerated into modern Humans" fan theory.

I wish people would stop throwing in their pet theories and passing them off as factual information just because it suits them. There is a difference between inferrences and off-the-limb speculation. I hope that people here will know the difference.

--Exalted Obliteration 22:46, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

And how exactly would humans that long ago make halo? I cant imagine cavemen making a giant space ring out of unknown materials, in outer space...an unkown distance away from earth, plus, other than the portal, there was no forerunner "relics" on earth. All of that plus, it contradicts already known information. So yes, that theory was, putting it softly, stupid.Papayaking 07:07, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Population

"It is likely that a policy like Chinas One-child policy was introduced to prevent such an huge overpopulation."

Why was this sentence deleted?

Because it's just speculation and not an established fact. And speculation isn't allowed.--Jugus 18:59, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Ok, but the the entire "Population" article is just speculation. Shouldnt you delete the whole section?

Every attempt has seen the section quickly returned, and an outbreak of consternation on the subject. -- Administrator Specops306 - Qur'a 'Morhek 00:41, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

I explained it to him on his talk page. Smoke^{Sound off!} 00:52, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

halsey journal page 7 39 billion sense she got the sample there at least 16-20 billion people that survive the war)

Huh. That...actually looks like a good figure! I thought it was a mistake at first, and was about to post a huge rant explaining how it could be higher than 20 billion because of selection protocols etc., but the logic turns out to be sound. For 150 candidates, Halsey would need a minimum of 39 billion records to select from. Taking away the 23 billion casualty estimate by Cortana, that would leave 16 billion. That may not take the devastation of Earth into account, but it's a lot higher than the 200 million estimate from bestiarum. -- Specops306 ^{Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek} 17:55, 26 October 2010 (EDT)

subtank tryed to do 200 million figure again make sure he does not do it agian beacuse an innocent guy got banned four mouths for it. —This unsigned comment was made by 204.169.64.37 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~

Again, the Bestarium only list the population of one planet, Earth. It doesn't show the entire population of the humanity. Why is so hard to understand this?- 5əb'7aŋk^(7alk) 13:34, 1 November 2010 (EDT)

FYI, if this "innocent guy" you're referring to is 71.195.10.41, this wasn't the only reason he got banned. He also kept removing legit content from articles, changing other established figures, even outright vandalism. --Jugus (Talk | Contribs) 13:37, 1 November 2010 (EDT)

can you stop it halo encylapedia which was information taken after the war still lists earth as overcrowded and which means it's still in the billions can some one tell subtank nicely not to add the 200 million things once it is gotten rid of and it earth population is still listed in the billions on earth in halopedian so it right.—This unsigned comment was made by 204.169.64.37 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~

The encyclopaedia indeed list Earth as overcrowded, but the cause of the overcrowding could very well be because of the refugees from other colony worlds. Hence, "With Earth devastated by the Covenant invasion, reducing the planet's own population to only 200 million, it is likely that the majority of the survivors are from the remaining UNSC colonies."

What you've not taken into consideration is the fact that the Bestiarum list Earth's population as being limited to only 200mil. Let me stress that again in a diagram:

• Bestiarum lists Earth's population as 200mil during the Battle of Earth.
• Encyclopaedia doesn't list Earth's population but merely mention it as being overcrowding in the 22nd century. The UN resolved this issue by colonising other planets in Sol System, which later expanded to Inner and Outer colonies. Nothing is mentioned afterwards.
• Evolutions had Cortana mentioning the total population as 23bil, near the end of the HCW.
• Halsey's Journal had the total population at an estimated 39bil before the HCW.

Thus

• From this, we could infer that Earth's population indeed has reduced to 200mil during the Battle of Earth, as per Bestiarum.
• Human population was at 39bil before the HCW, but reduced to approx. 16bil near the end of the HCW, as per Evolutions and Halsey's Journal
• The Encyclopaedia didn't mention anything about the total population after the HCW. It only covers the population in 22nd century.

Thus

• A conclusion could be constructed; Earth was once overcrowded by humans back in 22nd century, but that was sorted by colonising other colony worlds. The total population of humanity is between 16bil to 20bil. The Battle of Earth caused the Earth's actual population to 200mil. The Encyclopaedia didn't mention anything about the human population after the HCW. It remains unknown of the actual total human population.

If you could not understand the above diagram, then I would suggest speak to an Administrator to sort this problem out. Also, do not start an edit-war. I have supplied my reasoning behind my contributions and it is sound. I have not heard your counter-arguments or any sort of reasoning, other than "No U! Bestiarum is no longer canon, because new canon overrides old canon. Encyclopaedia is right!". Provide a reasoning first before making any change to the article. - 5əb'7aŋk^(7alk) 16:56, 2 November 2010 (EDT)

Just to add; the Encyclopedia clearly states that Earth's population is in the billions, and was not referring to the human race as a whole. While the Encyclopedia isn't the most trustworthy of sources itself, I have always found that the Bestarium's figure of 200 million to be a little unbelievable. - File:Black Mesa.jpg Halo-343 (Talk) 18:47, 2 November 2010 (EDT)

The question is when. When was Earth's population listed as being in billions? Additionally, did it specifically said so? If the population was before 2552, then it is indeed reasonable as the Battle of Earth has not occurred yet. If it were to be after 2552, then it may have retconned the Bestiarum. - 5əb'7aŋk^(7alk) 18:56, 2 November 2010 (EDT)

The exact quote from page 282 reads; "Billions still live there despite the ongoing colonization of the stars." While the mention of ongoing colonization suggests that it is written from a pre-war perspective, it could just as easily be referring to the advancement of human civilization in general, or even the post-war colonization Halo: Reach has shown us. It's hard to tell, though I find the "200 million" figure, even post-war, to be odd. From what we know of the Battle of Earth, the Covenant weren't interested in killing humans as much as they were looking for Forerunner artifacts and uncovering the Portal, and most of the fighting too place in East Africa, less thick across the rest of the planet, with most battles in other locations far from civilian population centers anyway (under the ocean, Antarctica, ect). Thus I think that the "billions" figure would still be accurate after the attack on Earth. Might I even recall a quote by Joseph Staten in a Halo 3 ViDoc; "millions of people have died", not billions. It's a stretch, but I thought that might be worth mentioning. - File:Black Mesa.jpg Halo-343 (Talk) 10:22, 3 November 2010 (EDT)

I would agree that the supplied quote was written from a pre-war perspective, that is before the HCW. Page 282 goes on as to stating that Earth's population was cut in half ^{"the entire population of Earth was cut in half as the First Battle of Earth [sic recte Battle of Earth] began."}. It does not however specify whether it means half of Earth's population were killed, or if a significant number were evacuated, although the latter is more probable, as the Covenant did not commence planetary bombardment, and the statement is in regard of the situation at the beginning and not the end of the battle. If this were to be the case, the population that were left behind/stayed back on Earth would be in smaller unit of billions (to put things into perspective, let's assume that Earth population was 6bil, thus 3bil were evacuated while the other 3bil stayed behind). Again, we should also be aware that the Halo Encyclopedia is not the definitive source of all Halo information; it is most likely that words were thrown into the reference textbook to make the subjects more interesting. It is known to be self-contradictory. Perhaps the best way is to include both references and mention the discrepancies?

Oh, and I should note that it was Marcus Lehto. ^{("The Covenant has absolutely destroyed parts of Earth. Millions of people have died.")}

I find the "200mil left" to be very reasonable... maybe it's just me. Regarding the Battle of Earth; the UNSC wouldn't have a hard time keeping the Covenant at bay if the alien empire was only interested in uncovering the Forerunner installation throughout the course of the event. To simply say the Covenant focused most of their time around East Africa to uncover the Forerunner installation from 20th October to 8th November is bizarre; I would assume that the Covenant, before the arrival of Truth and in between those dates, attacked every available population centres they could find to make sure the UNSC is occupied in saving the civilians. In other words, destabilise the civilian centres and make it problematic for the opposing military to handle, thus allowing the enforcer to continue their activities without major interruptions from the opposing military. This duration would give the Covenant some time to reduce Earth's population significantly.

I would also like to point out that the Bestiarum simply list Earth's population without any dates; so it is unknown if the population was archived by the Bestiarum during or after the war.- 5əb'7aŋk^(7alk) 12:41, 3 November 2010 (EDT)

connection to the forerunners

Personally i don't like the way it's worded. sure in the episode seeing how the forerunners have combat are which depicts them having similar body shape to ours. but towards the end after a forerunner put's it's armor away you can see the outline of it's face to see 2 "spikes" protruding on the side of the face. you can also see later "it" use a hand to lock the Armour away, showing it to be blue and look similar to cortana's hand due to the marks on it.

in other words we look "exactly the same" when they have armor on. other than that 1 reference we know nothing of how they look and until we know more i think we should lay off sating such a "connection" as a fact.grey 21:15, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Population...

On page 351 of Halo: Evolutions it says that "they will be left behind just the other twenty thre billion that preceded them were left behind." I know it sounds like a lot, but compared to how many people there will be in 500 years, it seems pretty small. Could it be military casualties or could have humanity suffered less then we thought? I think its an error on Robt Mclees part, but what do you guys think?--Sgt.T.N.Biscuits 03:26, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

i also think it a small number perhaps they suffered less, perhaps more colonies survived the war, this number just seen weird. Future information will perhaps help us. CF⁰⁰¹ 05:03, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Btw how many colonies did the UNSC had and average population and vs how many where destroyed?--Chairman Jack the BlackFile:COGskull.jpg 05:08, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

800 colonies and a population around 230 Billion. (The latter part is just speculation though).--Sgt.T.N.Biscuits 15:22, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

SGT.T.N.Biscuit you mean 23 billions? CF⁰⁰¹ 03:02, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

No, I mean 230 Billion. That's what you get if you calculate what the population would be in 2500. (Assuming it follows the same birth rate as now).--Sgt.T.N.Biscuits 04:17, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Forerunner Section

I don't think the section is best presented as a bulleted list, and it should be converted to prose. Like with trivia sections, it invites disorganization. --Dragonclaws^(talk) 00:37, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

WTF is up with this?

From the first paragraph, "They were the second (after the Forerunners) sentient species to develop advanced methods of living on their home planet of Earth". The Forerunner's never settled on Earth. And shouldn't the population be listed in Pre-War and Post-War categories? The bestiary lists the human population at around 200 million.

67.190.217.137 19:52, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Thel

Does anyone find it somewhat odd that Thel 'Vadam is in the Infobox Picture?

-CFM

what i just did

I just removed a part suggesting that the forerunners lived on earth so unless you believe that good day. Voro nar mantree 03:00, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

Belief doesn't come into it. There is no confirmation of it as fact, therefore it doesn't belong there - I concur with the edit. Don't always assume that we're going to be hostile to any edit - we're really not that bad! :D -- Specops306 ^{Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek} 09:45, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

In light of Cryptum's revelations

So it turns out that humanity was interstellar hundreds of thousands of years ago until we got into a war with the Forerunners, who won and devolved us before exiling us to Earth. The ruins on The Babysitter's planet in Halo Legends are ruins from that time period.

This article looks like it will have need major re-working, as will articles about Earth, the Forerunners, Precursors, etc. Should it be done now in light of the preview or should it wait until the full book is released? —This unsigned comment was made by 92.41.141.182 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~

There's not really that much that needs updating. What we know that's new is that the precursors sped up human and forerunner evolution and changed their DNA into a similar make-up. The Librarian was known to be capable of programming instincts into humans under her guardianship. Suffice to say that the precursors may have used the same technology millenia earlier to program the two species into rapid development. After the two species met, they clashed and humanity was forced to re-start from scratch (though the Librarian kept them somewhat civilised for a time). As the galaxy began dying due to the flood pandemic, the forerunners seem to have chosen their familiars as the successors of their mantle.-- Forerunner 15:51, 23 December 2010 (EST)

We might as well start with what we have now, from the two preview chapters. Why not? There's no embargo on them, here or elsewhere. I imagine further additions when the book comes out in two weeks, so is it worth starting now only to go back over it later? -- Specops306 ^{Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek} 15:58, 23 December 2010 (EST)

Page protection?

Now, I've no idea why, but recent weeks seem to have seen a great deal of edits and counter-edits by anons and admins over the population section. Does this warrant protection of the page?--The All-knowing Sith'ari 13:56, 18 February 2011 (EST)

It's the same retard. I banned him for like 2.5 years on the old Halopedia; since we moved over here that was rendered ineffective and he shows up again. This time he's gone for four years. No need to protect the page. Smoke^{Sound off!} 16:18, 18 February 2011 (EST)

Real Pic

Can we use a real human picture for the main picture? Vegerot (talk) 12:11, 20 June 2011 (EDT)

Capitalisation

To retain consistency with our other species articles (Unggoy, Sangheili, etc.), I suggest we always capitalise the word "Human" when editing.--The All-knowing Sith'ari 14:31, 22 June 2011 (EDT)

I've considered this, but I think it would be at odds with our article titling policy, which is based on using spellings found in canon. The word is not capitalized in any of the books, so I think it would be contradictory for us to start doing so. I'm aware that Wookieepedia capitalizes it, but I don't like the idea of using a spelling which is essentially fanon, not to mention grammatically incorrect. --Jugus (Talk | Contribs) 14:51, 22 June 2011 (EDT)

While I surely do respect the fact that the lowercase variation is used both in real life and in canon sources, it seems odd that in a science fiction setting as our own, that an individual species uses such standard. I'm a bit partial on this debate, but I would like to see it used in a capitalized manner (and not just because I use it as such in my fan fiction). User:CommanderTony/Sig

I agree with Jugus "A Penny saved is a Penny earned" 15:22, 22 June 2011 (EDT)

I do like the idea of consistency among names, but, like Jugus said, "human" is never capitalized in any canon source. The English major within me cringes at the idea of capitalizing "human". I've always been annoyed by Wookieepedia's insistence on doing so. --Courage never dies. 15:37, 22 June 2011 (EDT)

In response to the consistency argument, it's extremely common in sci-fi that alien species names are treated as proper nouns while "human" isn't (Mass Effect is a rare exception). I think it's the best to defer to canon in matters like this, especially when there's no conflict between different spellings in official sources. Besides, I don't see why such consistency is necessary here if the people behind the fiction feel no need for it. --Jugus (Talk | Contribs) 15:46, 22 June 2011 (EDT)

I was just about to refer to Mass Effect (beat me to it). Support I think it would be a good decision to handle matters like they handle capitalization in Mass Effect, as it would be grammatically correct, and well... grammatically correct. Vegerot (talk) 08:47, 23 June 2011 (EDT)

• Thanks for notifying me for this, I will change the names when I get back home (at school right now). It will be flooded with those edits in ~2-3 hours. :-P
  File:Commander Grade One.png Wilc0 ^{When in doubt, flee.} File:NL flag.jpg (Talk page) 09:22, 23 June 2011 (EDT)

I honestly think it's sad as us being being Humans refuse to capitalize the word Human. "A Penny saved is a Penny earned" 13:08, 23 June 2011 (EDT)