Talk:Proto-Gravemind: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 18:15, September 2, 2009

Does anyone have a picture of the ones that pilot pelicans in Halo 2?--prophit of war 22:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Brain Forms can't fly.

Brain ability to control technology

I son't think the brain forms really have complete control over the technology they use. This is from the fact that they dont land, they just fly at full speed until they crash into something. Anyone have other theories for this?

I think the fact that the flood are mentally retarded in more than one way might help in that. But is it possible that the flood can "control" technology in the same way they do living things. This could also provide that they were made not created due to mutation or evolution. Think about how Cortana MAY have been taken by Gravemind. -Lt.O'Brien 16:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

They may not be able to easily capture a useful brain in combat intact. Plus, many Flood are very able to pilot smaller vehicles, just not Pelicans. -ED 02:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

couldnt it have just been that they accidentally captured some random soldier who vaguely knew how to pilot the pelican, and not the pilot himself (or herself)? Phil.e. 02:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

That could work. Also IAC could have been crashed into the tower for the purpose of creating disorder and/or enabling Flood to access many levels. --Dragonclaws^(talk) 02:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

It is possible the forms just crashed the pelican to get the forms out of it quickly before potential hosts had a chance to see them coming and run away. -ED 02:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I think they crash it to cause confusion --Pileyourbodies 00:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe there were any "Brain forms" in the pelican. I believe they were indeed pouch forms! a flood form that converts bodies not carring calcium deposits into hundreds of infection forms for ling periods of time. perhaps a Combat form was flying the pelican and it had limited access to the controls because of it's state of body formation. that is why they crashed. --þ†öWè®¥ ^{^} ^{(UNSC Fleetcom)}^{(UNSC History)}^{(UNSC Mision Log)} 03:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

By crashing ships instead of landing has the benefits of being able to approach at full speed and make removal of the infected ship more difficult. This makes it much more difficult for any quick-minded defenders to repulse or destroy.

nomenclature

You know, where exactly does the term Brain Form come from anyway? I was always under the assumption that it was called a Commander Form. I forgot where i got that term, but I never saw Brain form until i saw it on an old fansite. Dude984 ^{[Communications]-[Contributions]}File:Dude avatar copy.gif 02:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know for sure, but most of this comes from HBO. --Dragonclaws^(talk) 02:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

What if...

Could it be a Gravemind? Nothing has ever said there's only one Gravemind.

No, it isn't intelligent enough to be considered a Gravemind. Also, in the Terminals, the forerunners refer to it as The thing controlling them. I believe any GRaveminds have generic minds andknow what all the others have known, which owuld explain why they are so knowledgable.

Proto-Gravemind

The Bestarium (at least the legendary version) pretty much confirms that the Brain Form is the beginning of the Gravemind, called the "Proto-Gravemind."

No it isn't. The Beastiarum never states anything of the kind. It never refers to the "Brain Form", it only states that a Gravemind forms when a Proto-Gravemind reaches a critical mass. There is no link between the two, and as such you cannot reasonably claim that they are one and the same.155.205.200.19 00:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

WTF!!!!!????? PROTO WHAT??? THATS NOT AN EARLY GRAVEMIND!!!! ITS A FU***NG BRAIN FORM!!!! --þ†öWè®¥ ^{^} ^{(UNSC Fleetcom)}^{(UNSC History)}^{(UNSC Mision Log)} 03:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Lets get something straight

The sacks on the H2 level "High Charity" are indeed NOT Brain forms. they are, however, the same things as the H3 sacks that you shoot and mini floods (Infection Forms) pop out.

-AGREE I agree, completly.. --72.15.94.59 22:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I Think we should Re-Rename back to Brain Form

I Think we should Re-Rename back to Brain Form because Not many Users agree with the changer's dicision.

For

Support I agree. No Proto Gravemind! ':D' --þ†öWè®¥ ^{^} ^{(UNSC Fleetcom)}^{(UNSC History)}^{(UNSC Mision Log)} 22:19, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

SupportI too agree with the descision to rename it to Brain Form, as the Gravemind on Delta Halo most likely existed during the events of Halo 1.XVArchonVx 22:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

SupportHEL YES! --72.15.94.59 22:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Only registered users may vote. Çya, M ø u s e 02:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Support The Proto-Gravemind might not be a Brain Form, it might be a stage AFTER the Brain Form.--The Demonic Idiot 01:30, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Support Protos may be made of multiple brain forms, we have no clear evidence that a Proto-Gravemind is the exact same as a Brain Form. Spartan 112 15:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

My main problem with the name brain form is that its never mentioned in Halo games, novels, comics, etc. Its not mentioned Anywhere. The Beastarium, which mentions species not seen in the games like the Engineers and Precursors, doesn't mention "Brain Form" anywhere. And its Bungie's definitive source on all halo species. --EliteSpartanFile:MVP achievement.gif 17:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Support Their is no evidence that the proto-gravemind and brain form are the same. And I remember Brain form being mentioned in The Flood. --Smothmoth 3:41, January 6, 2008

Support Haha check out my massive argument in the topic below the opposing side.--Nerfherder1428 16:09, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

Against

OpposeWhat does halo 1 have anything to do with a gravemind in halo 2 and 3?--General Running Riot R y a nFile:'s emblem.jpg 22:49, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

OpposeCan't be done. Brain form is a made up fan name. Proto-Gravemind is the name given by bungie. --EliteSpartan ^{My Talk} _{My Contribs}File:Sergeant.jpg File:GDI.jpg November 5 2007

It is never said that THIS was a proto-gravemind, only that "a Gravemind is formed when a Proto-Graveming reaches critical mass" annd not "A proto-gravemind is a brainform, go screw up all of our fan's lives", retard .

The beastarium(which has the info on ALL halo species) never even mentions a "Brain Form". All evidence points to this creature being a proto-gravemind. Calm down stuff gets renamed all the time its not a big deal.--EliteSpartan File:Sergeant-gr3.gif ^{My Talk}_{My Contribs}File:Cavalier achievement.gif 21:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Evidence? "Protogravemind" only said once! I don't even count Bestiaruim (the DVD spelling) or any books as canon unless mentioned or noted in the games. The books are not by Bungie, just by some guy in Washington (My home state). I should just ask them, It's about an hour drive from my house anyways. —This unsigned comment was made by 71.112.156.166 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~

OpposeThe Beastiarium came bundled with Halo 3, which is canon, so I would say to trust the Beastiarium. According to Halopedia:Canon Policy, the Beastiarium ranks as "Other Media", so unless Bungie, an affialiate, the novels, or the games say otherwise, trust it. Çya, M ø u s e 18:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

OpposeYeah, I'm pretty sure it is Bungie, or at least approved by Bungie. That book was included in the game. The writers do see the Halo Bible. Contact Harvest was even written by the Bungie guy who cowrote the games. And please don't hassle them. --Dragonclaws^(talk) 18:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, that didn't work right. I was replying to the user before Mouse when our edits must have overlapped or something. --Dragonclaws^(talk) 18:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Official names FTW!!! Guesty-Persony-Thingy 07:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Agreed. Official names take precedence over fan names. Rima 'Lacusee File:MinorElite5.jpg ^{|Talk|Minor Domo of the Covenant|} 10:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Sorry boys, it needs to stay Proto-Gravemind. It's like calling the Chief John instead of John-117 --The Lord of Monster Island ^{The Lord of Grunts} _{SPARTAN-012 James} ^{MCPO James Davis} _{I here your cries} ^{May your works be honorable} 20:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Oppose I agree with the above Honor Guard Reborn

Setting the name issue straight

Alright guys let's settle down. Looking at the above discussion has proven to me how very little some of you know about making an argument or giving evidence that makes sense. Let's look at the facts presented to us. Bungie made clear in the brochure that before a Gravemind, there is something called a Proto-Gravemind. The problem is that all of the people who oppose changing the name to Brainform don't understand the real argument. I think we call all agree that the massive thing on The Flood in Halo Wars was a Proto-Gravemind. It CLEARLY matches the description set forth in the game manual. However, the naming argument we are having is about the sack seen in Halo CE or even the blob in the Graphic Novel. The question is whether THESE are Proto-Graveminds, whether they are the same thing as the GIANT blob in Halo Wars (before you argue, YES things in Halo Wars are authorized as canon by Bungie, and separately by Frankie as well). They clearly do not serve the same purpose. The JOB of both blobs seen in Halo CE and the graphic novel is to assimilate people who can operate the ship. That way, they can pilot it to new worlds to infect. If anything, they'd be called Pilot Forms! They have no ambition to reach a critical mass and become Graveminds. They don't need to grow any larger except to gather more information about a ship's workings. THOSE things are NOT what the brochure describes. What we are in fact seeing, is that a separation needs to occur between the articles altogether. The Halo Wars thing is NOT designed to pilot a ship anymore than the Halo CE and Graphic novel blobs are designed to become Graveminds (so no, they're not). As the last piece of evidence, the actual game files of Halo CE call the creature that assimilated Keyes as a Flood Captain. BAM! Haha. Canon names abound. So there we go. We have a name. And now we can begin the process of separating the two articles please? Thank you! --Nerfherder1428 16:09, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

My reaction:

Paragraph breaks are awesome and help to combat what I call the "TL;DR Effect". I did read your comment, but had I not read it via the Diff, I might not have read it at all due to the sheer size.
Both forms are created using the same method. Merge a bunch of infected bodies and you've got the beginnings of your so-called "Pilot Form". Merge a bunch of infected bodies and you're well on your way to making gravy.
"Flood Captain" could well be a prototypical name, or could have been derived from Captain Keyes' contribution to the form. Hell, it could refer to Keyes himself -- the form might not have been named a Flood Captain but instead a Flood Captain.
A Proto-Gravemind could easily be a delegation mechanism. It may be possible that once a main Gravemind has formed, Proto-Graveminds will continue to be instructed, but only to deal with narrow tasks, under the Gravemind's leadership. The Gravemind has compared himself to a computer network before (in the Terminals, when he tells Mendicant Bias that "you need only look at your own [network] topology" to see the similarities), and he may very well act like one. Specifically, he could be a star network, with each individual Flood form acting as a node, and Proto-Graveminds acting as hubs.
- Say he needs to command a group of five Flood forms. He may do this by sending five sets of commands to one Form, who relays it to the others. This is actually how the Internet works -- you don't send your data to Halopedia; you send it to one computer, which relays it to another, which relays it to another, ..., which relays it to Halopedia.
- Now say he needs to pilot fifty ships. So he has his Combat Forms construct fifty Proto-Graveminds. Then, he relays general commands to the Proto-Graveminds, which act as network hubs, simplifying the Gravemind's operations by lightening the load, so to speak. He gives a general command to the Proto-Gravemind, and the uncooked gravy decides how best to execute that command given its immediate surroundings and the available Flood forms within those surroundings.
Given such a setup, subordinate Proto-Graveminds wouldn't want to increase in mass because there's already enough gravy to go around. All Flood forms have a linked mind, the Gravemind's mind... so if two Graveminds were to be formed "within range" of each other, their minds would likely be linked. Do you really think that an egotistical -- and likely narcissistic -- being who hates being outsmarted and obviously doesn't work with others would get along with itself? Neither do I.

So my basic argument, then, is that Brain Forms and Proto-Graveminds are formed the same way, the Gravemind is like the center of a Star network, Proto-Graveminds act like hubs when there's already a Gravemind, and subordinate Proto-Graveminds limit their growth so as to prevent the Gravemind from being affected by multiple personality disorder. DavidJCobb 22:15, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

@@ Line 96: / Line 96: @@
 ==Setting the name issue straight==
 Alright guys let's settle down. Looking at the above discussion has proven to me how very little some of you know about making an argument or giving evidence that makes sense. Let's look at the facts presented to us. Bungie made clear in the brochure that before a Gravemind, there is something called a Proto-Gravemind. The problem is that all of the people who oppose changing the name to Brainform don't understand the real argument. I think we call all agree that the massive thing on The Flood in Halo Wars was a Proto-Gravemind. It CLEARLY matches the description set forth in the game manual. However, the naming argument we are having is about the sack seen in Halo CE or even the blob in the Graphic Novel. The question is whether THESE are Proto-Graveminds, whether they are the same thing as the GIANT blob in Halo Wars (before you argue, YES things in Halo Wars are authorized as canon by Bungie, and separately by Frankie as well). They clearly do not serve the same purpose. The JOB of both blobs seen in Halo CE and the graphic novel is to assimilate people who can operate the ship. That way, they can pilot it to new worlds to infect. If anything, they'd be called Pilot Forms! They have no ambition to reach a critical mass and become Graveminds. They don't need to grow any larger except to gather more information about a ship's workings.  THOSE things are NOT what the brochure describes. What we are in fact seeing, is that a separation needs to occur between the articles altogether. The Halo Wars thing is NOT designed to pilot a ship anymore than the Halo CE and Graphic novel blobs are designed to become Graveminds (so no, they're not). As the last piece of evidence, the actual game files of Halo CE call the creature that assimilated Keyes as a Flood Captain. BAM! Haha. Canon names abound. So there we go. We have a name. And now we can begin the process of separating the two articles please? Thank you! --[[User talk:Nerfherder1428|Nerfherder1428]] 16:09, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
+:My reaction:
+:#Paragraph breaks are awesome and help to combat what I call the "TL;DR Effect". I did read your comment, but had I not read it via the [[Help:Diff|Diff]], I might not have read it at all due to the sheer size.
+:#Both forms are created using the same method. Merge a bunch of infected bodies and you've got the beginnings of your so-called "[[Brain Form|Pilot Form]]". Merge a bunch of infected bodies and you're [[Proto-Gravemind|well on your way]] to making [[Gravemind|gravy]].
+:#"Flood Captain" could well be a prototypical name, or could have been derived from Captain Keyes' contribution to the form. Hell, it could refer to Keyes himself -- the form might not have been named a [[Flood Captain]] but instead a [[Flood]] [[Captain Keyes|Captain]].
+:#A Proto-Gravemind could easily be a delegation mechanism. It may be possible that once a main Gravemind has formed, Proto-Graveminds will continue to be instructed, but only to deal with narrow tasks, under the Gravemind's leadership. The Gravemind has compared himself to a computer network before (in the [[Terminals]], when he tells [[Mendicant Bias]] that "you need only look at your own [[Wikipedia:Network topology|[network] topology]]" to see the similarities), and he may very well act like one. Specifically, he could be a [[Wikipedia:Network topology#Star|star network]], with each individual Flood form acting as a [[Wikipedia:Node (networking)|node]], and Proto-Graveminds acting as hubs.
+:#*Say he needs to command a group of five Flood forms. He ''may'' do this by sending five sets of commands to one Form, who relays it to the others. This is actually how the Internet works -- you don't send your data to Halopedia; you send it to one computer, which relays it to another, which relays it to another, ..., which relays it to Halopedia.
+:#*Now say he needs to pilot fifty ships. So he has his Combat Forms construct fifty Proto-Graveminds. Then, he relays general commands to the Proto-Graveminds, which act as [[Wikipedia:network hub|network hub]]s, simplifying the Gravemind's operations by lightening the load, so to speak. He gives a general command to the Proto-Gravemind, and the uncooked gravy decides how best to execute that command given its immediate surroundings and the available Flood forms within those surroundings.
+:#Given such a setup, subordinate Proto-Graveminds wouldn't want to increase in mass because there's already enough gravy to go around. All Flood forms have a linked mind, the Gravemind's mind... so if two Graveminds were to be formed "within range" of each other, their minds would likely be linked. Do you really think that an egotistical -- and likely narcissistic -- being who hates being outsmarted and obviously doesn't work with others would [[Wikipedia:Dissociative identity disorder|get along with itself]]? Neither do I.
+:So my basic argument, then, is that Brain Forms and Proto-Graveminds are formed the same way, the Gravemind is like the center of a Star network, Proto-Graveminds act like hubs when there's already a Gravemind, and subordinate Proto-Graveminds limit their growth so as to prevent the Gravemind from being affected by multiple personality disorder. <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><b>[[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] [[User:DavidJCobb|<span style="color:#000;position:relative;top:.15em">DavidJCobb&nbsp;</span>]]</b></span> 22:15, September 2, 2009 (UTC)