Talk:Swords of Sanghelios: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 13:12, June 1, 2021

All Sangheilli are technically Sepratists (Even Jul Mdama)[edit]

Every single Sangheili left the Covenant during the great schism. Weather they became part of Jul's Covenant Remnant or Arbiter's Swords of Sangheilios, all Sangheili ended up fighting against the Jiralhanae and San Shyuum during the great schism.

It would have been impossible for Sangheili to remain part of the Covenant Empire or Loyalists during the Great schism because if they had stayed, the Jiralhane would have massacared them. Truth ordered the Jiralhane to kill all the Sangheili, they were all ultimately forced out.

"These events led the entire Sangheili species to secede from the Covenant, forming the Covenant Separatists, Led by Rtas 'Vadum and Thel 'Vadam." Sangheili
"The resulting conflict would be called the Great Schism, and it would divide the Covenant into two, ultimately forcing the Sangheili out (of the Covenant)." https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/universe/species/jiralhanae

Because of this, shouldn't there be a seperate article for Sepratists and Swords of Sangheilios? Because technically even Jul Mdama and the Sangheili in his neo covenant faction are sepratists from the original Covenant too.—This unsigned comment was made by Editorguy (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~

I believe we have an article on all "Covenant separatists": Covenant remnants. —SPARTAN 331 16:29, 11 October 2015 (EDT)

I don't think we have enough information to decide that. I find it highly likely that 'Mdama thinks that the Prophets were the ones to leave the Covenant, not the Sanghieli. It was the Prophets, after all who broke the "covenant" with the Elites. Declaring the Elites to be the one's who left the covenant is an arbitrary distinction made by a fan base. We have no real source for that. Thanks, --Weeping Angel (talk) 22:25, 11 October 2015 (EDT)

The Sangheili were kicked out, then the Elites rebelled.Alertfiend - Team Chief 22:35, 11 October 2015 (EDT)

The idea of the Elites being "separatists" is a misconception we've been perpetuating for years now. The term originally came from the problem of what to call them, and I vaguely remember it was inspired by the Separatists in Star Wars, for reasons that elude me. The Arbiter, in Halo 3, makes it explicitly clear that he still considers himself "Covenant," and that it's a war for control of its territory, materiel and people rather than a war of secession.

The idea that the Elites left the Covenant is another misconception that's been circulating for a long time - the Elite Councillors threatened to resign, in protest at the changing of the guard. They never got the chance. Post-war, it's clear that the Swords of Sanghelios is a different entity to the Covenant, in the same way that the Russian Federation is the successor state to the Soviet Union.

Both "Loyalist" and "Separatist" terms are misnomers, and I'd favour phasing them out of the wiki entirely. -- Qura 'Morhek ^{The Autocrat} ^{of Morheka} 08:14, 12 October 2015 (EDT)

Really the only Seperatist things left are two files, [1] and [2] Alertfiend - Team Chief 09:20, 12 October 2015 (EDT)

Are we calling the group of Elites (All Elites) that left the Covenant during the Great Schism "Swords of Sanghelios"?[edit]

The whole "Separatist" name wasn't my question, and we kinda got off topic. My question is: because all Elites left the Covenant during the Great Schism, and Halopedia is calling this splinter group the Swords of Sanghelios, does that mean all Elites are technically Swords of Sanghelios (including Elites who started neo Covenants like Jul 'Mdama and Telcam?)? I think Halopedia is right because, when Truth started the Great Schism, it was all Elites and their followers against Truth, the Brutes, and their followers. Because all the Elites left the Covenant (or were forced out) during the Schism, that would include Jul' Mdama, Telcam, etc. So essentially the story is: All Elites leave the Covenant under the banner of Swords of Sanghelios. The Elites team up with humanity and win the war. After the war ends some of these Elites then leave the Swords of Sanghelios. These Elites who left the initial breakaway faction (Swords of Sanghelios) then proceed form their own factions such as Jul 'Mdama's Covenant. Is this correct or not?

All I know with certainty is that ALL Elites left the Covenant during the Great Schism. And even if some didn't want to leave and wanted to stay with Truth (for whatever crazy reason), they would have been killed as Truth ordered the Brutes to execute any Elite in sight. So the entirety of the Sangheili species was forced out of the Covenant when the Great Schism started following the Changing of the Guard.

"These events led the entire Sangheili species to secede from the Covenant, forming the Swords of Sanghelios" source: Sangheili
"The resulting conflict would be called the Great Schism, and it would divide the Covenant into two, ultimately forcing the Sangheili out (of the Covenant)." source: https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/universe/species/jiralhanae

Just checking to see if we are correct, not looking for an argument or anything. Editorguy (talk) 16:39, 27 May 2016 (EDT)

All Sangheili left the Covenant during the Great Schism. In the civil war, several factions were formed. First, we had Xytan 'Jar Wattinree's alliance, but that was destroyed. Then, Thel and Rtas led all the remaining Sangheili at Installation 05 and High Charity to combat the Covenant and Flood, as well as allying with humanity. For the remainder of the war, most Sangheili seemingly aligned themselves with Thel and Rtas or didn't intervene, though a majority of the forces the two commanded came from Installation 05 and High Charity. At some point after the Covenant War (the Swords of Sanghelios did not exist in an official capacity during the Covenant War), the Arbiter formally established a government-esque faction to govern Sanghelios and allied colonies (this faction being the Swords). At this point, with the Arbiter announcing that he would continue to ally with the UEG, some Sangheili disagreed with his views and formed/joined their own factions (such as Jul 'Mdama). However, the Swords of Sanghelios does not encompass all UEG-allied Sangheili. We know from Hunt the Truth that some clans formed treaties with the UEG that are not a part of the Swords of Sanghelios. --NightHammer^(talk)^(contribs) 17:13, 27 May 2016 (EDT)

Ooohh, I see. In articles I often see the Swords of Sanghelios (the Elites the allied with the humans during the end of the war) called Swords of Sanghelios before they became officially established. Should this be changed? Maybe instead have the wording say "The faction that would later be known as Swords of Sanghelios" and link that to Swords of Sanghelios? Maybe saying Sangheili in general would be more accurate, when referring to the entirety of the "separatist" faction? Editorguy (talk) 17:31, 27 May 2016 (EDT)

It's occasionally in some articles because some editors make the minor mistake of not realizing/forgetting that the Swords of Sanghelios weren't officially established until later and I don't notice it. And I wouldn't even go as far as to say that they eventually become the Swords of Sanghelios because we know that even some Sangheili that served under the Arbiter and Rtas in the final days of the Covenant War eventually enlisted with other factions including 'Mdama's Covenant after the war ended. --NightHammer^(talk)^(contribs) 17:42, 27 May 2016 (EDT)

I agree. Since the SOS wasn't established during the events in h2 and h3, the faction of Elites Separatists that become allied to humanity do have a proper name. Replacing SOS with Fleet of Retribution in those instances are a lot more accurate considering that the SOS didn't exist at that time. And it still accounts for the Elites that defected from the Arbiter after the war. The Fleet of Retribution emcompasses all the Elites that allied to humans during those events, and existed during that time period (unlike the SOS). All and all, it's a more lore friendly choice than SOS when referring to the allied ELites from Halo 2 and Halo 3.Editorguy (talk) 03:17, 29 July 2016 (EDT)

We know that the hierarchs and a number of other prophets launched a coup that effectively severed the Writ of Union made between San'Shyuum and Sangheili. We also know that the majority of Sangheili did not just decide to fight with humanity at that point. We know from examples like Xytan 'Jar Wattinree's and Jul 'Mdama's that not everyone was willing to just throw away the monicker or idea of the Covenant. The Great Schism didn't make Xytan give up on the genocide of humanity, after all. "Separatist", in this case, would denote someone who did wish to put the Covenant completely behind them and start on an entirely new footing.

Jul's Covenant and Xytan's group were very different though. Xytan's group was very much an active part of the Separatist (Rebellion, Resistance, whatever you wanna call it) movement against the Covenant. Jul's Covenant on the other hand, was created after the war ended to recreate the Covenant. Xytan's group was just like Thel and Rtas' group, they all worked to destroy the Covenant Empire that betrayed them. If anything Xytan could be seen as more vicious towards the Covenant Empire, as he planned a coup to massacre the Jiralhanae and San'Shyuum. The only difference between Xytan's group versus Thel and Rtas's group, is that Xytan's group didn't ally with the humans and continued to attack them. Which is why I think calling Xytan's group a separate faction of it's own is an assumption rather than a fact. Xytan's group could very well just have been another division of Sangheili fighting the Covenant Empire in its own way, like the Thel and Rtas' Fleet of Retribution.

The real splintering of the Sangheili happened after the war ended, as they no longer had the common threat of the Covenant Empire that betrayed them. Hence why almost all the post war Covenant factions are created after 2553. Editorguy (talk) 18:59, 8 December 2016 (EST)

Member category[edit]

I'll make a category for members, but let's decide on the name now so we don't have to go through all these pages more than once. I was thinking "Swords of Sanghelios members". --NightHammer^(talk)^(contribs) 23:58, 12 December 2015 (EST)

Sounds fine since we can't do Swords of Sanghelios.Sith Venator

(Dank Memes) 00:08, 13 December 2015 (EST)

Alright, I'll just go with "Swords of Sanghelios members". --NightHammer^(talk)^(contribs) 01:14, 13 December 2015 (EST)

Swords of Sanghelios ranks[edit]

Ok, I'm trying to reorganize the ranks section of this page as many of the ranks are merely held by those that sided with 'Vadum and the Arbiter during the Great Schism, but we have no proof that the Swords of Sanghelios continues to use those ranks after the war. See here. Any thoughts? --NightHammer^(talk)^(contribs) 12:22, 13 December 2015 (EST)

I agree with you to an extent, but I think the ranks we have seen in 2/3 may continue to exist duo to the factions using both new and old Covenant equipment. High Councilor exist, I think, because it was clarified in a Canon Fodder that some living Councilors joined the SoS, so I'd say it needs to stay as well, since we never got clarification if they remained Councilors or not (note that the SoS also has a council, but of Kaidons). Heavy aren't SoS, and none of them helped the SoS during Halo 2 if I remember. Also, should we remove the Kig-Yar from the page? Those in Escalation weren't SoS, just Kig-Yar being shot by Jiralhanae. This was essentially the same mistake the Lydus' faction page made, say they were the ones using Choppers and killing Sangheili. - Draft227 14:20 22 December 2015 (EST)

I think we should remove the Kig-Yar, though I don't think it's safe to say that High Councilors are still a part of the SoS. Some of the Covenant's Councilors joined up with them, but they may have decided to take combat roles or civilian roles. It would be best to avoid speculation. --NightHammer^(talk)^(contribs) 12:28, 22 December 2015 (EST)

Formation[edit]

I think we need to mention in the article at what point the SOS became the SOS. Because they didn't officially become the SOS until after Halo 3. Editorguy (talk) 17:04, 8 June 2016 (EDT)

"With Truth dead, High Charity destroyed, and Installation 00 essentially lost to the reborn Installation 04 firing, what remained of the Covenant was all but destroyed, with its member species divided into multiple factions. In the wake of the conflict, the Arbiter and his allies—now rallying under the name Swords of Sanghelios" Alertfiend - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. (Converse) 18:01, 8 June 2016 (EDT)

Yeah, we don't really have a specific date for when they were established. We just kind of presume they were established by early/mid-2553, even if it wasn't as official as it is in 2558. --NightHammer^(talk)^(contribs) 00:48, 29 July 2016 (EDT)

Canon Fodder 94[edit]

"On some units, members of the Swords of Sanghelios have incorporated a verdant iridescent sheen into the coloration; a poignant homage commissioned by the Arbiter to honor the Sangheili separatists that fought alongside human forces at the close of the Covenant War."

— Today's Canon Fodder.

Does this mean 343 has taken and canonized the old term we used here to mean the collective Sangheili rebellion against the Prophets? Kind of like Covenant remnants? Or is it just coincidence and not meant as a legitimate term? Tuckerscreator^(stalk) 15:17, 7 December 2016 (EST)

I would caution against adopting it until we see it in a context that is more than a descriptor, where we can clearly see it's an official name. And even if we get that, we've seen it only in the context of Halo 3, and clarifying that these are different to the modern Sangheili faction, which precludes merging it with Swords of Sanghelios. -- Qura 'Morhek ^{The Autocrat} ^{of Morheka} 17:05, 7 December 2016 (EST)

Indeed; if it were proven legitimate, I would still say it should be a separate article from Swords of Sanghelios. Tuckerscreator^(stalk) 17:24, 7 December 2016 (EST)

I honestly think we should bring back the Covenant Separatists page, it clarified a lot and was only removed because it was mistakenly thought to be the Swords of Sanghelios. Regarding the officialness of the name, we have many pages with unofficial names like "Post-Covenant War Conflicts". The Separatists themselves though are official. Editorguy (talk) 18:17, 7 December 2016 (EST)

"Sangheili separatists" is not the name of a faction, though, as you're positing. It's a description, much as how one might say "human rebels". Still, it is odd that they are considered "separatists" seeing as they were forced out by the Prophets. I'm with Morhek on this. I think it can be chalked up to an instance of fandom terminology bleed-through, unless it starts cropping up more.

As for the matter of the Fleet of Retribution/Swords of Sanghelios, I'm of the mind that while it is definitely true that the Swords had not been officially established back then, there is an undeniable continuity between Thel and Rtas' group during the Schism and the later Swords of Sanghelios. The group during the Schism was not a proper organization like the Swords, just a collection of ex-Covenant (mainly Sangheili) who happened to agree with Thel and Rtas (who were not necessarily confined to the Fleet of Retribution). Essentially a proto-SoS without a name, government or anything that would distinguish them into their own "thing". As such, I don't think there's enough of a difference to warrant their separation into their own article, and I believe the way we have them documented in the history section of this page is quite fine. --Jugus (talk) 05:54, 8 December 2016 (EST)

Looks like it's been changed: "...a poignant homage commissioned by the Arbiter to honor the Sangheili rebels that fought alongside human forces at the close of the Covenant War." Still, I doubt this is anything but a descriptor too. -- Topal the Pilot

(Talk|Contribs) 18:12, 8 December 2016 (EST)

I wonder if Grim changed it cause he saw our conversation xDEditorguy (talk) 18:39, 8 December 2016 (EST)

He most likely noticed that separatists were not the correct word for them. Alertfiend - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. (Converse) 22:38, 8 December 2016 (EST)

Halo 3 "Schism" Weapons And Vehicle Skins[edit]

This question has been on my mind for a while, does the color green, such as the green Phantoms, green Banshees, green Ghosts, and even some green weapons, show that the wielder is affiliated with the Swords of Sangheilios? "Crimson and ivory, or red-gold armor indicates some form of affiliation to the Swords of Sanghelios" Per the description of Halo 3's skins that have "Schism", it seems to be "for those seeking redemption". I'm not sure if this could mean that all Elite Separatists can have green colored weapons and vehicles, or if it's specifically for the Swords of Sangheilios. A Type-46 ISV (talk) 13:10, June 1, 2021 (EDT)

The intention of them is certainly to call back to the Arbiter's Halo 3-era forces, and in a fan work I'd certainly argue it appropriate to depict them as using these weapons (campaign mods pls). However, we can't really say much on a canonical basis that those weapons were used by the Swords of Sanghelios - much in the same vein as the Brutal skins being used by the Jiralhanae or the Ultra skins being used by the Evocati etc. It makes a lot of sense to assume these are the case, but there isn't any factual canon stating as such.BaconShelf (talk) 13:12, June 1, 2021 (EDT)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-I don't think the pages should be merged, since the Heretic and Separatist pages discuss sufficiently different factions. The Heretics' motivation is religious, a crisis of faith if you will. The Separatists' motives are more political; the Elites' demotion in favor of the Brute caste, along with the assassination of Elite councillors by the Brutes help spark the fighting. The two factions are also active in different periods of ''Halo 2'': the Heretics are defeated before the [[Great Schism|Covenant Civil War]] really begins. [[User:Lo-Volt|Lo-Volt]], August 8, 2006, 0201 hours EDT.
+{{Archived}}
-:I agree. --[[User:Dragonclaws|Dragonclaws]] 05:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
+== All Sangheilli are technically Sepratists (Even Jul Mdama) ==
-I also agree. The Heretic movement ended with the Heretic leader's death. The Seperatists are a result of a direct civil war within the Covenant political structure, hence why Brutes, Drones, Jackals, and Prophets are now against Elites, Grunts, and Hunters. A merger would be a mistake. Also, much of the Seperatists is speculation since by the end of the game, the movement is just starting. --[[User:CrzyAznSprtn|CrzyAznSprtn]] 13:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
+Every single Sangheili left the Covenant during the great schism. Weather they became part of Jul's Covenant Remnant or Arbiter's Swords of Sangheilios, all Sangheili ended up fighting against the Jiralhanae and San Shyuum during the great schism.
-== Covenant Separatists not the same as Heretics ==
+It would have been impossible for Sangheili to remain part of the Covenant Empire or Loyalists during the Great schism because if they had stayed, the Jiralhane would have massacared them. Truth ordered the Jiralhane to kill all the Sangheili, they were all ultimately forced out.
-I have been reading the [[Heretic]], [[Covenant Separatist]] articles along with the one about that famous [[Imperial Admiral]] and it seems that the [[Elites]] are against [[Human]]s yet some points say that they are allies. So perhaps it should be noted that while some of the Elites have sided with the [[Arbiter]], others have decided to go against both sides? [[User:Darth Batrus]]
-Well, the Heretics should be mentioned. The Arbiter at first was warned about how The Prophets were leading them to their doom, and the Elites at the time were unaware of really what was going on. They were warned of this. That warning should be mentioned since it contributes to the history of the Separatist movement. Also, the Oracle's perspective and the Prophet's perspective is important to mention because the Elites were stuck between a rock and a hard place: treason vs. damnation. This should all be mentioned to the point that its background information on the Elites leaving the Covenant. --[[User talk:J miester25|J miester25]] 04:10, December 6, 2009 (UTC)
+* "These events led the entire Sangheili species to secede from the Covenant, forming the Covenant Separatists, Led by Rtas 'Vadum and Thel 'Vadam." [[Sangheili]]
+* "The resulting conflict would be called the Great Schism, and it would divide the Covenant into two, ultimately forcing the Sangheili out (of the Covenant)." https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/universe/species/jiralhanae
-== Are the grunts actually part of this ==
+Because of this, shouldn't there be a seperate article for Sepratists and Swords of Sangheilios? Because technically even Jul Mdama and the Sangheili in his neo covenant faction are sepratists from the original Covenant too.{{Unsigned|Editorguy}}
-Just a question, but on the to Et tu brute video, the grunts were seen fighting with brutes. care to comment? :[[User:68.234.4.254|68.234.4.254]] 21:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
+:I believe we have an article on all "Covenant separatists": [[Covenant remnants]]. —<span style="font-family: Eurostile;">'''[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:#000;">SPARTAN</span>]][[User talk:Spartan331|<span style="color:#888;">331</span>]]'''</span> 16:29, 11 October 2015 (EDT)
-Yes, they are 68.234.4.254, play halo 2 or look for the Seperatist Grunt glitch and you'll find a friendly Grunt or two. --[[User:Elite Emperor]]
+::I don't think we have enough information to decide that. I find it highly likely that 'Mdama thinks that the Prophets were the ones to leave the Covenant, not the Sanghieli. It was the Prophets, after all who broke the "covenant" with the Elites. Declaring the Elites to be the one's who left the covenant is an arbitrary distinction made by a fan base. We have no real source for that. Thanks, --[[User:Weeping Angel|Weeping Angel]] ([[User talk:Weeping Angel|talk]]) 22:25, 11 October 2015 (EDT)
+:::The Sangheili were kicked out, then the Elites rebelled.[[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - [[Blue Team|Team Chief]] 22:35, 11 October 2015 (EDT)
-Yeah I have a theroy on this I think the grunts would prefer to be under the command of the elites who they are more familiar with and dont seem to beat them however the grunts who were on brute controlled ships and other variours brute held bases are forsed to work for them and follow there orders. [[User:Kami-Sama]]
+:The idea of the Elites being "separatists" is a misconception we've been perpetuating for years now. The term originally came from the problem of what to call them, and I vaguely remember it was inspired by the Separatists in Star Wars, for reasons that elude me. The Arbiter, in Halo 3, makes it explicitly clear that he still considers himself "Covenant," and that it's a war for control of its territory, materiel and people rather than a war of secession.
-Perhaps both Hunters(Mgalekolo) and Grunts(Unngoy) are forced to be with the covenant loyalists under the treath that they would glass their home planets?
+:The idea that the Elites ''left'' the Covenant is another misconception that's been circulating for a long time - the Elite Councillors ''threatened'' to resign, in protest at the changing of the guard. They never got the chance. Post-war, it's clear that the Swords of Sanghelios is a different entity to the Covenant, in the same way that the Russian Federation is the successor state to the Soviet Union.
+:Both "Loyalist" and "Separatist" terms are misnomers, and I'd favour phasing them out of the wiki entirely. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 08:14, 12 October 2015 (EDT)
-SPARTAN 456
+::Really the only Seperatist things left are two files, [http://www.halopedia.org/File:Seperatist_fleet_ark.jpg] and [http://www.halopedia.org/File:343_Guilty_Spark_Seperatist_UNSC.jpg] [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - [[Blue Team|Team Chief]] 09:20, 12 October 2015 (EDT)
-== extend page ==
+===Are we calling the group of Elites (All Elites) that left the Covenant during the Great Schism "Swords of Sanghelios"?===
-can some one expand this page with pictures of variours elites hunters and grunts from halo two levels [[Gravemind]], [[Uprising]], [[The Great Journey]] and [[High Charity]]
+The whole "Separatist" name wasn't my question, and we kinda got off topic. My question is: because all Elites left the Covenant during the Great Schism, and Halopedia is calling this splinter group the Swords of Sanghelios, does that mean all Elites are technically Swords of Sanghelios (including Elites who started neo Covenants like Jul 'Mdama and Telcam?)? I think Halopedia is right because, when Truth started the Great Schism, it was ''all Elites and their followers'' against ''Truth, the Brutes, and their followers''. Because all the Elites left the Covenant (or were forced out) during the Schism, that would include Jul' Mdama, Telcam, etc. '''So essentially the story is: All Elites leave the Covenant under the banner of Swords of Sanghelios. The Elites team up with humanity and win the war. After the war ends some of these Elites then leave the Swords of Sanghelios. These Elites who left the initial breakaway faction (Swords of Sanghelios) then proceed form their own factions such as Jul 'Mdama's Covenant.''' Is this correct or not?
-:I can't take screenshots, but I'll see about at least getting some pictures to show what the articles about. '''[[User:Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="#000000">g</font><font color="#770000"><sup>u</sup></font><font color="#cc0000">e</font><font color="#ff0000"><sub>s</sub></font><font color="#ff3333">t</font><font color="#ff6666"><sup>y</sup></font>]]-[[User talk:Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="#9999ff">p</font><font color="#6666ff"><sub>e</sub></font><font color="#3333ff">r</font><font color="#0000ff"><sup>s</sup></font><font color="#0000cc">o</font><font color="#000066"><sub>n</sub></font><font color="#000000">y</font>]]-[[Special:Contributions/Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="#000000"><sup>t</sup></font><font color="#007700">h</font><font color="#00cc00"><sub>i</sub></font><font color="#00ff00">n</font><font color="#44ff44"><sup>g</sup></font><font color="#99ff99">y</font>]]''' 17:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
+All I know with certainty is that ALL Elites left the Covenant during the Great Schism. And even if some didn't want to leave and wanted to stay with Truth (for whatever crazy reason), they would have been killed as Truth ordered the Brutes to execute any Elite in sight. So the entirety of the Sangheili species was forced out of the Covenant when the Great Schism started following the Changing of the Guard.
-Kk it'll be much apreshiated [[User:Kami-Sama]]
+* "These events led the entire Sangheili species to secede from the Covenant, forming the Swords of Sanghelios" source: [[Sangheili]]
+* "The resulting conflict would be called the Great Schism, and it would divide the Covenant into two, ultimately forcing the Sangheili out (of the Covenant)." source: https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/universe/species/jiralhanae
-When are these pics going to be added [[User:Kami-Sama]]
+Just checking to see if we are correct, not looking for an argument or anything.
+[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 16:39, 27 May 2016 (EDT)
-== Covenant Species Names==
+:All Sangheili left the Covenant during the Great Schism. In the civil war, several factions were formed. First, we had Xytan 'Jar Wattinree's alliance, but that was destroyed. Then, Thel and Rtas led all the remaining Sangheili at Installation 05 and High Charity to combat the Covenant and Flood, as well as allying with humanity. For the remainder of the war, most Sangheili seemingly aligned themselves with Thel and Rtas or didn't intervene, though a majority of the forces the two commanded came from Installation 05 and High Charity. At some point after the Covenant War (the Swords of Sanghelios did ''not'' exist in an official capacity during the Covenant War), the Arbiter formally established a government-esque faction to govern Sanghelios and allied colonies (this faction being the Swords). At this point, with the Arbiter announcing that he would continue to ally with the UEG, some Sangheili disagreed with his views and formed/joined their own factions (such as Jul 'Mdama). However, the Swords of Sanghelios does not encompass all UEG-allied Sangheili. We know from ''Hunt the Truth'' that some clans formed treaties with the UEG that are not a part of the Swords of Sanghelios. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 17:13, 27 May 2016 (EDT)
-would it be less confusing if I changed the names of the Covenant species from the Covenant translation (Sangheili, Unggoy, etc) to the human translation (Elites, Grunts, etc)? Not everyone knows the Covenant translation, so it my be confusing for casual readers. [[User:Simon rjh|simon]] [[User_talk:Simon_rjh|RJ]][[Special:Contributions/Simon_rjh|H]] 17:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
+::Ooohh, I see. In articles I often see the Swords of Sanghelios (the Elites the allied with the humans during the end of the war) called Swords of Sanghelios before they became officially established. Should this be changed? Maybe instead have the wording say "The faction that would later be known as Swords of Sanghelios" and link that to Swords of Sanghelios? Maybe saying Sangheili in general would be more accurate, when referring to the entirety of the "separatist" faction? [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 17:31, 27 May 2016 (EDT)
-Perhaps you could add the common name in parenthesis next to the proper name.
+:::It's occasionally in some articles because some editors make the minor mistake of not realizing/forgetting that the Swords of Sanghelios weren't officially established until later and I don't notice it. And I wouldn't even go as far as to say that they eventually become the Swords of Sanghelios because we know that even some Sangheili that served under the Arbiter and Rtas in the final days of the Covenant War eventually enlisted with other factions including 'Mdama's Covenant after the war ended. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 17:42, 27 May 2016 (EDT)
+::::I agree. Since the SOS wasn't established during the events in h2 and h3, the faction of Elites Separatists that become allied to humanity do have a proper name. Replacing SOS with Fleet of Retribution in those instances are a lot more accurate considering that the SOS didn't exist at that time. And it still accounts for the Elites that defected from the Arbiter after the war. The Fleet of Retribution emcompasses all the Elites that allied to humans during those events, and existed during that time period (unlike the SOS). All and all, it's a more lore friendly choice than SOS when referring to the allied ELites from Halo 2 and Halo 3.[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 03:17, 29 July 2016 (EDT)
-== At the behest of gravemind ==
+:::::We know that the hierarchs and a number of other prophets launched a coup that effectively severed the Writ of Union made between San'Shyuum and Sangheili. We also know that the majority of Sangheili did not just decide to fight with humanity at that point. We know from examples like Xytan 'Jar Wattinree's and Jul 'Mdama's that not everyone was willing to just throw away the monicker or idea of the Covenant. The Great Schism didn't make Xytan give up on the genocide of humanity, after all. "Separatist", in this case, would denote someone who did wish to put the Covenant completely behind them and start on an entirely new footing.
-If Masterchief is meant to stop truth and his guards at the behest of gravemind, why isn't the flood on Masterchiefs side? gravemind is said to be the flood leader...
+:::::::Jul's Covenant and Xytan's group were very different though. Xytan's group was very much an active part of the Separatist (Rebellion, Resistance, whatever you wanna call it) movement against the Covenant. Jul's Covenant on the other hand, was created after the war ended to recreate the Covenant. Xytan's group was just like Thel and Rtas' group, they all worked to destroy the Covenant Empire that betrayed them. If anything Xytan could be seen as more vicious towards the Covenant Empire, as he planned a coup to massacre the Jiralhanae and San'Shyuum. The only difference between Xytan's group versus Thel and Rtas's group, is that Xytan's group didn't ally with the humans and continued to attack them. Which is why I think calling Xytan's group a separate faction of it's own is an assumption rather than a fact. Xytan's group could very well just have been another division of Sangheili fighting the Covenant Empire in its own way, like the Thel and Rtas' Fleet of Retribution.
-Cortana says in a cutscene that Gravemind was distracting them or something, but otherwise, he just didn't want to starve, because the Covenant were going to activate Halo. Also, even after you meet gravemind, you still have to fight the flood. --'''[[User:Knuxchao|<font color="Goldenrod">Reborn Knuxchao</font>]] <small> <sub>[[User_talk:Knuxchao|<font color="DarkGoldenrod">T</font>]]</sub> <sub> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Knuxchao|<font color="SaddleBrown">C</font>]]</sup> </sub> <sup>[[Special:Random|<font color="Black">R</font>]]</sup></small>''' 12:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
+:::::::The real splintering of the Sangheili happened after the war ended, as they no longer had the common threat of the Covenant Empire that betrayed them. Hence why almost all the post war Covenant factions are created after 2553. [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 18:59, 8 December 2016 (EST)
-The whole point of sending the Master Chief to High Charity was to kill him. Think about it, Gravemind didn't need the Chief to get the Index. The Control Room was surrounded by pissed off Elites, there was no real danger that Halo would go off. There were two reasons the Gravemind wanted the Chief on High Charity:
+==Member category==
--To get Cortana, a valuable source of knowledge on both humans and covenant
+I'll make a category for members, but let's decide on the name now so we don't have to go through all these pages more than once. I was thinking "Swords of Sanghelios members". --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 23:58, 12 December 2015 (EST)
--To kill the Chief, the only real Reclaimer at the moment.
+:Sounds fine since we can't do Swords of Sanghelios.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 00:08, 13 December 2015 (EST)
-If Chief killed Truth, well, so be it. If not, the Flood would. -[[User:Azathoth|The Dark Lord Azathoth]] 13:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
-==Questioning Member races of Separatist==
+::Alright, I'll just go with "Swords of Sanghelios members". --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 01:14, 13 December 2015 (EST)
-Well, the article clearly states that Grunts and Hunters are with the separatists, but in Halo 3 I see them fighting alongside the Brutes, what's up with that? Shouldn't actions be taken to ensure this article is au jour? [[User:Troubleshooter|Trouble]][[User_talk:Troubleshooter|shooter]] 20:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
-It was originally shown that Grunts and Hunters were allies of the Elites, but in Halo 3 Bungie said the were on both sides. The Grunts were too afraid to openly support one side, and the Hunters' political motivation is completely unknown. Also, did you get to complete Halo 2? ([[User:Cyborg Robot|Cyborg Robot]] 00:31, 2 December 2007 (UTC))
+==Swords of Sanghelios ranks==
+Ok, I'm trying to reorganize the ranks section of this page as many of the ranks are merely held by those that sided with 'Vadum and the Arbiter during the Great Schism, but we have no proof that the Swords of Sanghelios continues to use those ranks after the war. [[User:NightHammer/Sandbox|See here.]] Any thoughts? --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 12:22, 13 December 2015 (EST)
+:I agree with you to an extent, but I think the ranks we have seen in 2/3 may continue to exist duo to the factions using both new and old Covenant equipment. High Councilor exist, I think, because it was clarified in a Canon Fodder that some living Councilors joined the SoS, so I'd say it needs to stay as well, since we never got clarification if they remained Councilors or not (note that the SoS also has a council, but of Kaidons). Heavy aren't SoS, and none of them helped the SoS during Halo 2 if I remember. Also, should we remove the Kig-Yar from the page? Those in Escalation weren't SoS, just Kig-Yar being shot by Jiralhanae. This was essentially the same mistake the Lydus' faction page made, say they were the ones using Choppers and killing Sangheili. - Draft227 14:20 22 December 2015 (EST)
-== Arbitorials? ==
+::I think we should remove the Kig-Yar, though I don't think it's safe to say that High Councilors are still a part of the SoS. Some of the Covenant's Councilors joined up with them, but they may have decided to take combat roles or civilian roles. It would be best to avoid speculation. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 12:28, 22 December 2015 (EST)
-I rember hearing this quote in the Sirea 117:
+== Formation ==
-{{Quote|"The Grunt's new-found courage is but fear. When we,Arbitorials(sp?), are victorious, all who serve the Prophets will be punished."|The Aribter}}
+I think we need to mention in the article at what point the SOS became the SOS. Because they didn't officially become the SOS until after Halo 3.
-So is their official name the Arbitorials and should it be mentioned the article?--[[User:Darth Scott|Darth Scott]] 03:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
+[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 17:04, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
-He never says "Arbitorials." He just says "When we are victorious." If he were to say "Arbitorials", it would be noticable. [[User:Kap2310|Kap2310]] 20:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
-I'm sure your hearing this dude.... --[[User:Ajax 013|Ajax 013]] 20:37, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
+''"With Truth dead, High Charity destroyed, and Installation 00 essentially lost to the reborn Installation 04 firing, what remained of the Covenant was all but destroyed, with its member species divided into multiple factions. In the wake of the conflict, the Arbiter and his allies—now rallying under the name Swords of Sanghelios"''
+[[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 18:01, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
-Ok I was pretty sure he said something like "Arbitorials" I'm probably wrong--[[User:Darth Scott|Darth Scott]] 00:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
+:Yeah, we don't really have a specific date for when they were established. We just kind of presume they were established by early/mid-2553, even if it wasn't as official as it is in 2558. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 00:48, 29 July 2016 (EDT)
-==name==
+==Canon Fodder 94==
-I was just wondering if the name "Covenant Separatists" is canon(stated in-game or in the novels) or made up by fans and the halopedia community.--[[User:EliteSpartan|'''<font color="Green">EliteSpartan</font>''']] [[Image:Sergeant-gr3.gif|25px]] <sup>[[User talk:EliteSpartan|'''<font color="Black">My Talk</font>''']]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/EliteSpartan|'''<font color="Black">My Contribs</font>''']]</sub>[[Image:Cavalier achievement.gif|30px]] 02:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
+{{Quote|On some units, members of the Swords of Sanghelios have incorporated a verdant iridescent sheen into the coloration; a poignant homage commissioned by the Arbiter to honor the '''Sangheili separatists''' that fought alongside human forces at the close of the Covenant War.|{{Plain|[https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/bounty-hunters Today's Canon Fodder]}}.}}
-== Vehicles ==
+Does this mean 343 has taken and canonized the old term we used here to mean the collective Sangheili rebellion against the Prophets? Kind of like [[Covenant remnants]]? Or is it just coincidence and not meant as a legitimate term? [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 15:17, 7 December 2016 (EST)
-I thought the only vehicles the separatists used where the ghost, and on the rare occasion the banshee. Im very sure they didnt use the Spectre or the Shadow since those arent seen in Halo 3, which is the only game the Separatists are in. I am also sure they didnt use the Spirit since that was only in Halo 1.
+:I would caution against adopting it until we see it in a context that is more than a descriptor, where we can clearly see it's an official name. And even if we get that, we've seen it only in the context of Halo 3, and clarifying that these are different to the modern Sangheili faction, which precludes merging it with Swords of Sanghelios. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 17:05, 7 December 2016 (EST)
-every vehicle in halo cannon mentioned or created exist (of course except for cut and deleted material), each fleet under separatist or loyalist has each vehicle and vessel, but since the promotion of brutes they put their vehicles in instead of elite vehicles like the chopper(brute) vs. ghost(elite) or prowler(brute) vs. spectre(elite), because the elites would never use brute weapons,vehicles, vessels, they did use all the vehicles and vessels from each game, just in halo 3 bungie wanted to show fans the brutes promotion after the civil war in Halo 2 by replacing the spectre with prowler and shadow with elephant for humans, and giving them more ranks, armor, and weapons, it would be great if bungie would create more brute variants to distinguish between the separatist and loyalist, like the banshee that is used by both loyalist and separatist--[[User talk:Lordexodus003|Lordexodus003]] 11:19, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
+Indeed; if it were proven legitimate, I would still say it should be a separate article from Swords of Sanghelios. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 17:24, 7 December 2016 (EST)
-== no vehicles? ==
+:I honestly think we should bring back the Covenant Separatists page, it clarified a lot and was only removed because it was mistakenly thought to be the Swords of Sanghelios. Regarding the officialness of the name, we have many pages with unofficial names like "Post-Covenant War Conflicts". The Separatists themselves though are official. [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 18:17, 7 December 2016 (EST)
-why don't the the Elites use their own vehicles? like thir own wraiths or ghosts or banshees or even their own Scarabs? [[User:Voy101|Voy101]]
+::"Sangheili separatists" is not the name of a faction, though, as you're positing. It's a description, much as how one might say "human rebels". Still, it is odd that they are considered "separatists" seeing as they were ''forced'' out by the Prophets. I'm with Morhek on this. I think it can be chalked up to an instance of fandom terminology bleed-through, unless it starts cropping up more.
+::As for the matter of the Fleet of Retribution/Swords of Sanghelios, I'm of the mind that while it is definitely true that the Swords had not been officially established back then, there is an undeniable continuity between Thel and Rtas' group during the Schism and the later Swords of Sanghelios. The group during the Schism was not a proper organization like the Swords, just a collection of ex-Covenant (mainly Sangheili) who happened to agree with Thel and Rtas (who were not necessarily confined to the Fleet of Retribution). Essentially a proto-SoS without a name, government or anything that would distinguish them into their own "thing". As such, I don't think there's enough of a difference to warrant their separation into their own article, and I believe the way we have them documented in the history section of this page is quite fine. --[[User:Jugus|Jugus]] ([[User talk:Jugus|talk]]) 05:54, 8 December 2016 (EST)
-:I would think its because they dont need them in the situations they're in or they may not even have any vehicles because the ones the used in ''Halo 2'' might have been stolen from the Covenant Loyalists. [[User:EwCDnaudee419|<font color="MidnightBlue">EwCDnaudee</font>]] 19:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
+:::Looks like it's been changed: "...a poignant homage commissioned by the Arbiter to honor the '''Sangheili rebels''' that fought alongside human forces at the close of the Covenant War." Still, I doubt this is anything but a descriptor too. -- [[User:Topal the Pilot|'''Topal the Pilot''']] [[File:Blueteam.png|20px]] <small>([[User talk:Topal the Pilot|<span style="color:green">'''Talk'''</span>]]|[[Special:Contributions/Topal the Pilot|<span style="color:green">'''Contribs'''</span>]])</small> 18:12, 8 December 2016 (EST)
-they do, every fleet either it be brute or elite comes with hundreds or thousands of vehicles and vessels either ghost, wraiths, banshees, etc. since your playing halo through the view of chief, humans, and UNSC were not around areas where the separatist used their own vehicles and vessels against the loyalist, if bungie made a halo game from the separatist view would be awesome and we would see this in effect--[[User talk:Lordexodus003|Lordexodus003]] 11:04, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
+::::I wonder if Grim changed it cause he saw our conversation xD[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 18:39, 8 December 2016 (EST)
-::well what about times like on the covenat level,their vehicles could of helped then
+:::::He most likely noticed that separatists were not the correct word for them. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 22:38, 8 December 2016 (EST)
-the separatist do have their own vehicles, in halo 3 levels such as "ark" and "covenant" they were probably sent else where on the ark to fight loyalist forces where the chief wasn't at, as for the level "covenant" the UNSC dropped off their vehicles for chief and the elites that helped him clear the tower just used those instead--[[User talk:Lordexodus003|Lordexodus003]] 11:04, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
+== Halo 3 "Schism" Weapons And Vehicle Skins ==
+This question has been on my mind for a while, does the color green, such as the green Phantoms, green Banshees, green Ghosts, and even some green weapons, show that the wielder is affiliated with the Swords of Sangheilios?
-== Hunters ==
+"Crimson and ivory, or red-gold armor indicates some form of affiliation to the Swords of Sanghelios"
-Maybe the separatist hunters have green armour instead of blue..similar to how their phantoms were green. I dunno what separatist grunts would look like though...-- [[User:Joshua 029|Joshua 029]] 03:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
+Per the description of Halo 3's skins that have "Schism", it seems to be "for those seeking redemption". I'm not sure if this could mean that all Elite Separatists can have green colored weapons and vehicles, or if it's specifically for the Swords of Sangheilios. [[User:A Type-46 ISV|A Type-46 ISV]] ([[User talk:A Type-46 ISV|talk]]) 13:10, June 1, 2021 (EDT)
+:The intention of them is certainly to call back to the Arbiter's Halo 3-era forces, and in a fan work I'd certainly argue it appropriate to depict them as using these weapons (campaign mods pls). However, we can't really say much on a canonical basis that those weapons ''were'' used by the Swords of Sanghelios - much in the same vein as the Brutal skins being used by the Jiralhanae or the Ultra skins being used by the Evocati etc. It makes a lot of sense to assume these are the case, but there isn't any factual canon stating as such.[[User:BaconShelf|<span style="color:green;">BaconShelf</span>]] <span style="font-size:90%">([[User:BaconShelf|talk]])</span> 13:12, June 1, 2021 (EDT)
-i think so as well. but with the grunts its difficult because they have different colours for different ranks (unlike the hunters oddly) possibly with the curved armour instead of the triangle armour (you know from halo 1&2) and somthing significant the note them like the marathon symbol on one side of their back. but also i reckon they didn't include both races in halo 3 as allies because the graphics engine wasn't good enough for the battle with the amount of 'Friendly AI' to make it look good. so they were probably cropped out of the game out of laziness.
-i kind of agree with the unknown editor above about not making the separatist allies grunts and hunters on the game help chief, i don't think it would be to hard for people to distinguish between a grunt with a red marker (enemy) and a grunt with a green marker (ally), and i just don't see as to why the hunters would be on the loyalist side in the first place, then i read they original were going to put the deleted race the Drinol on the loyalist side to replace the Hunters that left the covenant for the separatist side, but they threw it out because they thought it would confuse players, i don't see how this would confuse players since you should play halo 2 before halo 3 and see that on the levels Gravemind through the Great Journey that every single hunter through those levels sided with the separatist--[[User talk:Lordexodus003|Lordexodus003]] 11:32, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
-== Separtists Fleet Destroyed? ==
-If I recall the Arbiter had said that "We had a fleet of Hundreds!" "Alas Brother, the Flood... It has evolved!" - Is that implying that the Flood evolved and managed to barely break through Quarantine? Or that the Flood evolved and utterly decimated the Sangehellian Fleet over High Charity? It could explain how High Charity itself was able to escape. --[[User:66.37.173.238|66.37.173.238]] 04:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
-or he's wondering how a single ship got through the elites hundreds. the major elite replies "alas brother, the flood, it has evolved!" it means they got smarter and avoided the elite fleet.
-== Stop Adding ==
-"*Currently the most powerful faction in the halo universe.
-*Saved the human race from destruction towards the end of the human-covenant war"
-Please, stop adding these back into the article. For one thing, the first point cannot be confirmed. The Separatists may have been just as decimated by the Covenant and the Flood as the UNSC was, and regardless, the Forerunners make everyone else pale in comparison. And the second point is already stated in the article, and therefore does not need to be stated again in the trivia section. --<b>[[CoH|<font color=purple>Councillor</font>]]</b> <b>[[User:Specops306|<font color=blue> Specops</font>]][[UserWiki:Specops306|<font color=blue>306</font>]] - <i>[[User Talk:Specops306|<font color=blue>Qur'a</font>]] <font color=purple>[http://halofanon.wikia.com/wiki/Operation:_HOT_GATES 'Morhek]</font></i></b> 05:41, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
-this is the truth. the humans are basicly beaten into submission, the loyalists have been destroyed and the flood isnt a threat anymore. the forerunners dont count anymore because they are gone. the seperatists have superior numbers and lots of colonys. i seriously doubt they were as badly decimated as the humans were. the humans were fought for like 20 years and beaten into a low population on one planet. the elite seperatists have been spacefaring much longer than the humans and obviously have alot more worlds under control. No problem about the elites saving humans bit though. -antihero
-:My point about the second "fact" was merely that it was already stated. For the first, I doubt the Sangheili escaped without some wounds - the Schism was a pretty turbulent time, and I doubt they'd have allied with humanity at all unless they were desperate. -- <b>[[Halopedia:Administrators|<font color=indigo>Administrator</font>]] [[User:Specops306|<font color=indigo>Specops306</font>]] - ''[[User Talk:Specops306|<font color=blue>Qur'a 'Morhek</font>]]'' <sup>''[[w:c:halofanon:Operation: HOT GATES|<u><font color=purple>Honour Light Your Way!</font></u>]]''</sup></b> 03:53, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
-hasn't the covenant dissolved? surely now its every races looking after their selves. the sepritist didn't really have lots of colonies because it was each races colonies to protect. also humans wernt low populated on earth. they had multiple colonies and the only population figure for earth of halo ive seen is that of earth in the last year of the war. just saying ya know that now factions should be individual races [[User talk:DeadReanimation|DeadReanimation]] 11:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
-:Humanity as a species is now 200 million. That's a confirmed fact and anyone trying to argue otherwise is purposely choosing to ignore some very solid canon. As for the Covenant/Separatists - the Covenant still exists, but its military and leadership have been devastated by one calamity after another. The Assembly map description confirms that it still exists in one form or another, and is gearing up to pay the Sangheili back. As for whether the Separatists split, I would think they'd prefer to unite together against the Covenant. -- <b>[[Halopedia:Administrators|<font color=indigo>Administrator</font>]] [[User:Specops306|<font color=indigo>Specops306</font>]] - ''[[User Talk:Specops306|<font color=blue>Qur'a 'Morhek</font>]]'' <sup>''[[w:c:halofanon:Operation: HOT GATES|<u><font color=purple>Honour Light Your Way!</font></u>]]''</sup></b> 03:53, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
-::Do you think that the loyalist are gonna launch a counter attack against the sepratist cause like after the ark was destroyed the sepratist proberly absorbed some loalist troops but theres still 6 halos left (btw was delta halo destroyed after halo 2?)
-:::Delta Halo is still intact, and currently quarantined by what's left of the Sangheili fleet. I'm not sure what you mean about Separatists "absorbing" Loyalist forces - did you mean on the level of Grunts, Jackals and Hunters, etc? And what's left of the Covenant is still a formidable force, gearing up to make a comeback - exactly when they do so is unknown. It might be 2553, it might be decades later. We also don't know how we'll see it, whether it'll be novels or games, etc. -- <b>[[Halopedia:Administrators|<font color=indigo>Administrator</font>]] [[User:Specops306|<font color=indigo>Specops306</font>]] - ''[[User Talk:Specops306|<font color=blue>Qur'a 'Morhek</font>]]'' <sup>''[[w:c:halofanon:Operation: HOT GATES|<u><font color=purple>Honour Light Your Way!</font></u>]]''</sup></b> 21:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
-:::In no canon anywhere is it explicitly stated that the ''Sangheili'' have other colonies as population centres. In fact it is actually stated that they have no other population centres other than ''Sangheilios'' in the ''Encyclopaedia''. So in regards to being the most powerful faction in Halo, from a territorial perspective, they are not. Their fleet numbers have dwindled to the point where they were forced to abandon their campaign against the ''Jiralhanae'' to defend themselves. Unable to produce new weaponry and ships, unable to repair them, and lacking the knowledge to do so (Implying no Tier 2 or even Tier 3 understanding within their society of physics, engineering, mathematics, computing etc) they are not most powerful, not anymore from a military perspective and certainly not from a scientific perspective. Everyone post Halo 3 is in a state, no one has any power. Also, with respect to Humanity. 200 million cannot be all there is left. The Bestiarum describes Earth with a population of 200 million, and we know for a fact that at least one colony has survived, ''Minister''. The ''Encyclopaedia'' also makes references to secession beginning in the remaining colonies. Unless these colonies are empty, and the UNSC is at odds with empty buildings, I cannot see how 200 million applies to all of Humanity. I do not disagree with Sangheili saving Humanity though, just the part about them having the most power. --[[User talk:Anton1792|Anton1792]] 16:36, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
-== Separatist Jiralhanae ==
-In my opinion since some separatists brutes had been killed but for their own kind as they were considered traitors to the Covenant. Once I put it but someone deleted it. Not as you think.[[User:H A L O Legend|H A L O Legend]]
-:Unless you were reading fanfiction, there have been ''no'' Separatist Brutes. -- <b>[[Halopedia:Administrators|<font color=indigo>Administrator</font>]] [[User:Specops306|<font color=indigo>Specops306</font>]] - ''[[User Talk:Specops306|<font color=blue>Qur'a 'Morhek</font>]]'' <sup>''[[w:c:halofanon:Operation: HOT GATES|<u><font color=purple>Honour Light Your Way!</font></u>]]''</sup></b> 22:00, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
-It's possible, but not confirmed, and unlikely.--[[User talk:GEARS OF WAR 2|Unreal Admin]] 00:53, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
-Hi! I've have a few things to ask:
-I know in the wiki that it says the separtist phantom was green to lock in the pact between humans and elites, but was that said in the game? Cause if it wasn't, wouldn't it make sense that they made it the same colour or similiar to the pelicans so that a human gunner knew easily if it was friend or foe.
-If the Covenant leadership was dead, wouldn't the separtists not exist, as in the title? Wouldn't they be call the "Holy Covenant Empire" or something like that? And I'm sure that they wouldn't stay with the Green colour. They might have blue instead, like their plasma rifles.
-And ya thats all I got. [[Special:Contributions/204.16.103.183|204.16.103.183]] 01:49, February 18, 2010 (UTC)TipoFry
-The Elites are more of a Separatist movement rather than heritic, but they also believe that the Prophets were deceitful hense a lack of faith and stopped believing altogether. One thing I don't understand though, is why, on the final level on Halo 2 - The Great Journey, Grunts and Hunters are allies of the Elites while in Halo 3, they are enemies. Also, why would the Grunts and Hunters have sided with the Elites over the Covenant?
-This is a common question among all of us, but what we know is that bungie didn't want to include separatist grunts and hunters because they felt it would confuse the players so they just labeled them as enemies in halo 3, as to why they joined us is, the hunters are a warrior race like the sangheili and respect each other for it, and the grunts that served under the elites followed their command, hopefully bungie will consider a halo game that allows you to play the separatist and we'll get to see this, but maybe its a pipe dream time will tell--[[User talk:Lordexodus003|Lordexodus003]] 17:05, March 15, 2010 (UTC)
-==Sangheili-Human Alliance==
-From the section itself:
-''"The Separatist Elites seem to show some signs of change due to their new human allies. <u>They will broadcast in a frequency that can be heard by both Elites and humans as well as letting humans in their drop ships.</u> '''This shows that they are able to work with humans as equals'''. In addition, many Elites begin to refer to The Flood as 'the flood' instead of 'the parasite'."''
-I assume that this is making reference to the instances in Halo 2/3 where ''Humans'' and ''Sangheili'' communicate to each other, like ''Rtas 'Vadum'' speaking to ''Miranda Keyes'' etc. If so, then it should not be placed after the post Halo 3 content as, by the sounds of it, it may be misleading people into believing that a universal "Flood Code" has been made between them , unless I missed that part in ''The Return''. Also, when do ''Humans'' go into their dropships? The part in bold as well. While it can be proven with the ''Conversations from the Universe'' booklet that this may in fact be true, the fact of letting ''Humans'' ride in their dropships, if true, is not proper justification for such a claim. After all, Sangheili allowed Unggoy to ride in their dropships, but they are hardly considered equal. --[[User talk:Anton1792|Anton1792]] 17:13, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
-==Grunts and Hunters==
-Most of the Grunts and Hunters sided with the Seperatists.  Some remained with the Loyalists out of fear, conscription vs execution, or loyalty (in the case of the Ungoy deacons) or whatever reasons come to light.  But the fact remains that the three species that rebelled against the Prophets and their 3 Loyalist client races were the Elites, Grunts, and Hunters.  Most of them, en masse.  Not just "some."
-:Where has there ever been a source stating outright that ''most'' of the Hunters and Grunts rebelled? Canonically, looking to Halo 3, we see more Hunters fighting on the side of the Covenant than we ever did fighting for the Elites in Halo 2, and the fact that Grunts are still used en masse by the Brute-led forces, and ''none'' appear when the Elites arrive to assist, shows that there were more Grunts on the side of the "loyalists" than that of the Elites. We know that ''some'' Grunts and ''some'' Hunters sides with the Elites, and that a substantial number remained with the Covenant - to say otherwise is simply stretching facts to suit out own opinions. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 19:40, 14 January 2011 (EST)
-::According to Bungie, the only reason you never see Grunts and Hunters on the humans side was because they were afraid to confuse the players, and that allied Grunts and Hunters simply fought elsewhere.
-==Separatist Jackals?==
-You would think with how jackals tend to look after themselves that if any of them found out Halo would kill them they would join the Separatists especially considering that they aren't all that faithful with the Covenant religion anyway.
-:well I know that at least one jackal wasnt taking the covenants crap, in halo 2 during the riots on high charity you can see one jackal who seems to be p'od at the covenant leadership . . . he kinda attacks a brute I think. He mightn ot have been a compatant though . . . just a civilian. [[Special:Contributions/71.238.243.98|71.238.243.98]] 12:56, 21 November 2012 (EST)
-==Dissolution?==
-Since when is it stated that the Covenant separatists ceased to exist as a unified force? And if so, should we create a new faction for the Arbiter's forces?18:31, 16 December 2012 (EST)~
-*The dissolution of the Covenant separatists occured in the [[Kilo-Five Trilogy]], specifically the novel [[Halo: The Thursday War]] when the Sangheili fall to civil war. As for after that, if we hold that Thel 'Vadam's faction is no longer the Covenant Separatists, what should we call it? It's obvious from [[Halo: Escalation]] that 'Vadam's men still include many of the Covenant races. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] ([[User talk:SFH|talk]]) 13:49, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
-::As far as we know, they never really were called "Covenant separatists" to begin with - it's just another name made up by Halopedia because they had to be called something. As for what to call Vadam's current faction, I don't really have anything. I don't think there's a desperate need to have a page for them as of the present, though, so it's really a non-issue. We could just keep calling them things like "Thel 'Vadam's allies" or "Thel 'Vadam's faction" or whatever best describes them. It's a shame 343i insists on not naming things, though Jul 'Mdama's Covenant is a bigger offender in this regard.  --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 14:12, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
-:::I think "Thel 'Vadam's faction" or "Vadam Loyalists" would be great choices for the faction's name until we get an actual name from 343. I searched around and "Vadam Loyalists" seems to be in use already on pages with the cruisers Devotion,Swordsman, and Axiom from Halo:The Thursday War. This faction seems to have enough information for the creation of its own page, at least in my opinion. Any thoughts?[[Special:Contributions/96.246.166.18|96.246.166.18]] 13:19, 14 April 2014 (EDT)
-::::The above proposal is good, and we can include a section on "splinter factions" in this article to link these splinter factions. As for the article's title, it would appear that Jugus is spot on with the title; it is a fan-given name made in '06. — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  15:07, 14 April 2014 (EDT)
-:::::Splinter factions for the separatists or for the Covenant in general? [[Special:Contributions/96.246.166.18|96.246.166.18]] 15:18, 14 April 2014 (EDT)
-== Renouncing the Forerunners ==
-In the article, it says that Thel 'Vadam's faction no longer worship the Forerunners as gods. However, when I checked Glasslands, where the citation comes from, it comes from Avu Med 'Telcam that Thel 'Vadam renounced the Forerunners, and I find it a little difficult to trust the words of someone that is declared a "maniac" on the very next page. Is there anything where Thel 'Vadam specifically denounces the Forerunners? We have evidence that followers of Thel 'Vadam still believe the Forerunners are gods. Rtas 'Vadum exclaims "By the Gods!" when ''High Charity'' appears at the Ark, and the Shipmaster from ''The Return'' also still worships the Forerunners. [[User:SFH|SFH]] ([[User talk:SFH|talk]]) 13:35, 31 May 2014 (EDT)
-:What exactly would 'Telcam's beef with the Arbiter be if the latter still adhered to the old Sangheili religion? Cooperating with humanity, sure, but 'Telcam himself does that and his crusading is, for the most part, sincerely religious in nature as opposed to a means to an end like it is with Jul. Furthermore, is there any reason to assume they (or at least Thel himself) ''do'' regard the Forerunners as gods? Even Refumee's heretics occasionally used phrases like "By the Gods" or "By the Rings" out of habit so I wouldn't put too much weight on Rtas' statement alone. Maniac as he may be, I'd expect 'Telcam's hatred to have some basis in truth. I don't think it's too far-fetched to assume that after everything he's witnessed, Thel would come to see the Forerunners as just a race of ancient aliens. However, there doesn't seem to be any kind of extensive anti-religion preaching going on either on the Arbiter's part and it's perfectly plausible that members of his faction are free to believe whatever they wish (after all, Thel wouldn't want to turn away potential allies).
-:Also, since it's been a while since I read ''The Return'', is there an explicit statement that the Shipmaster ''is'' allied with the Arbiter? That isn't so clear-cut anymore given 343's establishment of the Sangheili as being much more divided than was previously indicated. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 10:38, 1 June 2014 (EDT)
-::The Shipmaster does say that he had heard stories from the Arbiter about a connection between humans and Forerunners, and he seems to have more beef with the Jiralhanae than any other faction, but I suppose it is ambiguous as to whether the Shipmaster is still with the Arbiter's followers at the time of ''The Return'' (on a separate note, I'm beginning to think Halopedia may be costing the Arbiter more allies than his policies, as it seems we keep removing members of this faction every day). Additionally, when Thel talks to the Elders of Mdama, he says that while people say the Sangheili have lost the gods, Thel assures them they haven't lost them. Has anything of the Arbiter's statements in ''Halo: Escalation'' shed any light on his stance? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] ([[User talk:SFH|talk]]) 11:08, 1 June 2014 (EDT)
-:::I don't think the Arbiter discusses religion at all in the little screen time he has in ''Escalation''. But in light of those quotes from ''Glasslands'', it is perhaps best to remove the article's statement that the faction outright renounces the Forerunners. I'm still inclined to believe the Arbiter himself probably isn't much of a believer anymore (and that his statements to the elders are mostly clever politicking), but to claim that his whole faction rejects the Forerunners' divinity is probably assuming too much. Or maybe there's some other, perhaps very trivial point in his religious stance that the Abiding Truth makes a fuss over.
-:::''"on a separate note, I'm beginning to think Halopedia may be costing the Arbiter more allies than his policies, as it seems we keep removing members of this faction every day"'' — I supposed you're referring to the [[Joyous Exultation alliance]] page? Myself, I'm wondering why this faction (if it can be called that, given that it existed for like ~2 hours) was ever grouped with the Arbiter in the first place. ''Ghosts of Onyx'' barely even mentions him - in 'Wattinree's summit, 'Mantakree is still under the impression the Arbiter is dead. So he clearly wasn't involved there. Though it was more excusable back when we called this page "Covenant separatists" - the nomenclature was more forgiving with the details of who was in charge. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 11:32, 1 June 2014 (EDT)