Talk:Office of Naval Intelligence: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 09:20, February 14, 2024

Oni Personnel[edit]

We should list people in the ONI! --JohnSpartan117 04:09, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

There is already a list on the Characters page. So move that list here and leave a link or leave it were it is but don't create two lists.--Esemono 04:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

On second thought you could create a template with a list and then have it on both pages...--Esemono 04:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Added it--JohnSpartan117 06:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

ONI slogan[edit]

Hmm, isn't "Semper Vigilans" meant to be somewhere on the logo?

Is that the latin slogan of the ONI? --JohnSpartan117 00:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

yes.--Ryanngreenday 10:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The real life one? What does it mean? --JohnSpartan117 04:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

"Always Vigillant" -ED 19:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, from what I've read in the Halo novels, it means "Ever Vigilant". --Xamikaze330 23:21, 22 February 2012 (EST)Xamikaze330

Sources[edit]

I have added sources, and I Love Bees is considered canon by Bungie.AJ 23:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Name[edit]

Is the name properly shortened to ONI or O.N.I.? --Dragonclaws^(talk) 21:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

It should be O.N.I. but for ease of use its ONI AJ 21:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

UNSC Military Intelligence Division[edit]

If that is its formal name, why don't we call it that?--The All-knowing Sith'ari 20:39, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, that name has only been mentioned once. It seems to be implied that it's the formal name, but the general populace and military personnel (high-ranking or not) refer to it as "ONI". --UNSC Trooper File:unsctrooper_small.jpg|14px]] ^Talk_{My Work} 16:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe ONI is only part of the UNSC Military Intelligence Division, and we've only heard that name once because of the Navy-bias that seems to exist in Halo.

The Fall of Reach mentions Michael Stanforth being the head of "Section Three" of the UNSC Military Intelligence Division. It could indeed be referring to another "Section Three", as ONI Section Three's executive officer has never been named, but I'm not entirely sure. --UNSC Trooper File:unsctrooper_small.jpg|14px]] ^Talk_{My Work} 20:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps ONI is a section of the UNSC Military Intelligence Division (or at least subordinate to it, given that it's part of the Navy), and the UNSCMID has numbered sections, similar to the British practice of MI5 and MI6 (MI stands for Military Intelligence).--The All-knowing Sith'ari 22:19, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Team black[edit]

shouldn't team black be somewhere under units? they where under command of oni so i would assume they would be a unit of there's Quisdog 01:07, 25 February 2011 (EST)quisdog

So were Gray team and the S-IIIs - that doesn't make then ONI agents.-- Forerunner 11:21, 25 February 2011 (EST)

oh i just kinda assumed they where cause they dealt with ONI directly and seemed much more affiliated with oni than the rest of the Spartans who seemed more navy based and ONI gave the highly advanced mljnoir specially for them, but i get what your sayin.Quisdog 03:37, 28 February 2011 (EST)quisdog

Wouldn't Section 1 be considered logistics? EpsilonIndi 17:53, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

Section One[edit]

I'm surprised we do not put more information about them in the article. They are probably the biggest part of ONI, think of all the things they've done. They're the ones who've gathered the information about the Covenant, they are the ones who scavenged the data found on Installation 04, they found Installation 03they were even the ones who spoke with Chakas on Installation 07! We should put information on what they've done, and that they've discovered Installation 03, etc. Vegerot goes RAWR! Vegerot (talk) 19:46, 14 January 2012 (EST)!

I plan on doing it once I get Primordium.--Spartacus ^{Talk • Contribs}

Not even talking about Primordium, they've done so many other things as well. Which is why I say they're the biggest part of ONI. Vegerot goes RAWR! Vegerot (talk) 20:56, 14 January 2012 (EST)!

ONI HQ[edit]

Where is the HQ of ONI on earth? Is it at the present day one in DC? I think that's where the present day one is. —This unsigned comment was made by 98.92.214.22 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~

I'm guessing it's at HIGHCOM Facility Bravo-6, considering that's where CINCONI Margaret Parangosky's office was.--Spartacus ^{Talk • Contribs} 20:19, 8 February 2013 (EST)

Other divisions and offices within ONI[edit]

In Ghosts of Onyx both Rear Admiral Ned Rich and Captain Aaron Gibson appear. They are said to be the directors of ONI Section Three's Covert Operations and Black Operations Divisions, respectively. These divisions go completely unmentioned throughout the rest of canon, at least as far as I've seen. Do these positions have any connection the the Beta-5 and Delta-6 Divisions within ONI?

Also, in the Halo 2 Anniversary Terminal of Locke's target profile on Thel Vadamee, he mentions the "Office of Retrieval and Acquisitions". I think this could qualify as the unit that he worked under besides just ONI Section Three. Kcin117 (talk) 16:47, 8 July 2018 (EDT)

@@ Line 14: / Line 14: @@
 The real life one? What does it mean? --[[User:JohnSpartan117|JohnSpartan117]] 04:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 :"Always Vigillant" -[[User:ED|ED]] 19:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
+::Actually, from what I've read in the ''Halo'' novels, it means "Ever Vigilant". --[[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 23:21, 22 February 2012 (EST)Xamikaze330
 == Sources ==
@@ Line 28: / Line 29: @@
 If that is its formal name, why don't we call it that?--[[User:The All-knowing Sith'ari|The All-knowing Sith&#39;ari]] 20:39, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
-:Well, that name has only been mentioned once. It seems to be implied that it's the formal name, but the general populace and military personnel (high-ranking or not) refer to it as "ONI". --[[User:UNSC Trooper|<font color="darkblue">UNSC Trooper</font>]] [[Image:unsctrooper_small.jpg|14px]] <sup>[[User talk:UNSC Trooper|<font color="green">Talk</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/UNSC Trooper|<font color="green">My Work</font>]]</sub> 16:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
+:Well, that name has only been mentioned once. It seems to be implied that it's the formal name, but the general populace and military personnel (high-ranking or not) refer to it as "ONI". --[[User:UNSC Trooper|<font color="darkblue">UNSC Trooper</font>]] File:unsctrooper_small.jpg|14px]] <sup>[[User talk:UNSC Trooper|<font color="green">Talk</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/UNSC Trooper|<font color="green">My Work</font>]]</sub> 16:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 ::Maybe ONI is only part of the UNSC Military Intelligence Division, and we've only heard that name once because of the Navy-bias that seems to exist in Halo.
-:::The Fall of Reach mentions [[Michael Stanforth]] being the head of "Section Three" of the UNSC Military Intelligence Division. It could indeed be referring to another "Section Three", as ONI Section Three's executive officer has never been named, but I'm not entirely sure. --[[User:UNSC Trooper|<font color="darkblue">UNSC Trooper</font>]] [[Image:unsctrooper_small.jpg|14px]] <sup>[[User talk:UNSC Trooper|<font color="green">Talk</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/UNSC Trooper|<font color="green">My Work</font>]]</sub> 20:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
+:::The Fall of Reach mentions [[Michael Stanforth]] being the head of "Section Three" of the UNSC Military Intelligence Division. It could indeed be referring to another "Section Three", as ONI Section Three's executive officer has never been named, but I'm not entirely sure. --[[User:UNSC Trooper|<font color="darkblue">UNSC Trooper</font>]] File:unsctrooper_small.jpg|14px]] <sup>[[User talk:UNSC Trooper|<font color="green">Talk</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/UNSC Trooper|<font color="green">My Work</font>]]</sub> 20:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 ::::Perhaps ONI is a section of the UNSC Military Intelligence Division (or at least subordinate to it, given that it's part of the Navy), and the UNSCMID has numbered sections, similar to the British practice of MI5 and MI6 (MI stands for Military Intelligence).--[[User:The All-knowing Sith'ari|The All-knowing Sith&#39;ari]] 22:19, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
-== team black ==
+== Team black ==
 shouldn't team black be somewhere under units?
@@ Line 45: / Line 46: @@
 Wouldn't Section 1 be considered logistics? [[User talk:EpsilonIndi|EpsilonIndi]] 17:53, 4 June 2011 (EDT)
-==Antagonists==
+== Section One ==
-Is the ONI the "bad guys" after the Covenant and the Flood? In ''The Mona Lisa'', John Smith is an ONI officer who tested the Flood infection on human prisoners, and he obviously worked against Lopez and her squad. In ''Glasslands'', ONI attempts to help a group of Elites to start an insurrection against Thel 'Vadam, the very Elite who symbolizes the alliance between the humans and the Sangheili, which helped the humans defeat the Covenant Empire. And to some extent, they are [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonster Complete Monsters], abducting children from their parents, training them and then letting the majority of them to die. Sure, there are some good ONI characters: Veronica Dare, Catherine Halsey, Connor Brien... but then there's also James Ackerson, Aaron Gibson, John Smith, etc.
+I'm surprised we do not put more information about them in the article.  They are probably the biggest part of ONI, think of all the things they've done.  They're the ones who've gathered the information about the Covenant, they are the ones who scavenged the data found on Installation 04, they found Installation 03they were even the ones who spoke with Chakas on Installation 07!  We should put information on what they've done, and that they've discovered Installation 03, etc. Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  19:46, 14 January 2012 (EST)!
+:I plan on doing it once I get Primordium.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}}
-The way the ONI gives out propaganda can be considered immoral. Look at the [[Office of Naval Intelligence Directive 930|ONI Directive 930]]. Numerous Spartans sacrificed themselves, for nothing. Issac-039 and Vinh-030 sacrificed themselves to save Dr Halsey and other Spartans, but they wouldn't get any recognition, because they are MIA. People assumed they just gone missing. No one would know they ''died'' to save Halsey. Just some food for thoughts. —[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:silver;">S331</span>]] [[File:Bubbleshieldhud.svg|14px]]<sub>([[User talk:Spartan331|When I played Halo: CE]], [[Special:Contributions/Spartan331|we didn't have any fancy-shmancy armor abilities...]])</sub> 03:01, 12 September 2011 (EDT)
+::Not even talking about Primordium, they've done so many other things as well.  Which is why I say they're the biggest part of ONI. Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  20:56, 14 January 2012 (EST)!
-:The only antagonists among ONI are Section III. Section I and II have jobs that are vital to humanity's survival - Section I is essentially espionage and counter-espionage, which is an absolute necessity in a post-war universe where Insurrectionists with UNSC secrets could sell them to Brutes or Jackals. Section II may deal with propaganda, but that in itself does not a villain make - the Allies pumped a constant stream of it during World War II, and most countries continue to. The modern US Military cooperates with Hollywood productions because depicting their personnel and machines is good advertising. After Top Gun, recruitment figures for the Navy jumped. They also have very good reasons not to let people know that Spartans can be killed. During World War II, US comics had superheroes fighting Nazis long before they actually entered the war. Now, imagine that your country is fighting Nazi Germany, is losing, and that these superheroes ''are real''. It would be a major morale boost - hence declassifying them. But you completely lose the effect that has if you also tell people that, sorry, they're weak against Kryptonite. Everybody uses propaganda - it only becomes a Repugnant and Terribly Unconscionable Thing when it's done by the "enemy".
-:At the same time, Section III's NavSpecWar and NavSpecWep departments have done the bulk of ONIs immoral actions that we've seen so far - NavSpecWep with the SPARTAN-II and -III Programs, and NavSpecWar with their covert warfare against their ostensible "ally" the Sangheili. But, again, they were semi-justified for their ends, if not their means - savin humanity. The SPARTAN-II Program was meant to shut down an Insurrection that could see human-occupied space turn upon itself, colony against colony, an escalating war for territorial and ideological dominance that the UNSC wanted to stop... by imposing their ''own'' ideology. The SPARTAN-III Program was meant to buy humanity time. And it worked. Yes, it saw the deaths of hundreds of supersoldiers, but never needlessly. The operations they engaged in distracted or tied up the Covenant for months, months that the rest of humanity needed. And the operations against the Sangheili are also justified - after fighting nearly thirty years against them for survival, humanity understandably is not eager to see them build up their strength. Likewise, the Sangheili resent humanity's tenacity and creativity, and see us as a threat. Yes, they helped each other destroy the Covenant - but now that the Prophets have disappeared and the remainder of the Covenant have fallen apart, that doesn't mean anything anymore. They don't "owe" each other anything. Whoever wins the power struggles of Sanghelios, humanity will be able to take advantage of things. Parangosky is funding the rebels to destabilise the status quo - if the rebels win, the Sangheili are weakened by conflict and political turmoil, humanity have valuable intelligence and contacts and are in a position of strength. If the Arbiter's faction wins, the Sangheili still resent the hell out of humanity, but are held back by the Arbiter and Hood's negotiations, and humanity gain valuable intelligence and contacts and are in a position of strength. Whichever side wins, humanity comes out on top. It's a very interesting [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit Xanatos Gambit] - whatever happens, humanity comes out stronger.
-:Mostly, I think, ONI exists to throw a bit of ambiguity into the mix - the suggestion that fighting for the right cause, and being on the winning side, doesn't by default make one a "good guy". ONI have the right goals, but accomplish them by means born from desperation. Their heart is in the right place - it's just a black, shrivelled thing. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 23:36, 14 January 2012 (EST)
-::Very well said SpecOps, I agree with pretty much all of it. Even though I really, really dislike Section III and what they do, I think it makes for a much more interesting universe, so it's not just about the humans, who are good and perfect and weaker, fighting these big mean aliens from somewhere else, who want to kill all of us. The series has slowly been getting away from the simple good vs evil idea. CE was just that, good vs evil, nothing really in between. Halo 2 added some character and feeling of the other side of the war, following Thel, and learning how they were all wrong. Halo 3 more or less just kept this idea going, though it did have the Gravemind helping you for a bit, even if he was just playing everyone. ODST is where it really gets interesting, because that's where ONI comes in. That's what changes everything, and why I think all post-ODST Halo media will be more complex, and darker. If Halo: CE is the best example of the early Halo universe's basic Good vs Evil, then I think the best example of the newer, darker, and more complex Halo universe is best shown [[The Mona Lisa|here]]. [[User talk:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:40, 15 January 2012 (EST)
-:::Thanks! I like the idea of complexity - few answers worth asking are "yes" or "no", black and white make for a boring light spectrum, etc etc. And just in case my wall of text put some people off, I'm not saying SecIII aren't villains, because they totally are. My point is just that even as villainous as they are, ONI aren't conventional "antagonists". I actually like the depiction shown in ODST - that they're willing to reassign special warfare troops from an absolutely important mission, not tell them anything about what they're going after, and then in the end it seems a partial anticlimax that it's just an Engineer, only for that Engineer to play a huge behind-the-scenes role in future canon. That just seems like ONI's style to me! -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 06:33, 15 January 2012 (EST)
+== ONI HQ ==
-Yeah, I agree with what you're both saying.  One of the best ways of describing ONI is what Parangosky said "I do a lot of bad things.  I spend every day ruining peoples' lives and ending them, but I know that by killing these people less people will die because of that."  Paraphrasing, but pretty much sums them up: they do lotsa bad things, but overall help people out. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[File:Icon-Vegito2.gif|21px]] [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  14:09, 15 January 2012 (EST)!
+Where is the HQ of ONI on earth?  Is it at the present day one in DC? I think that's where the present day one is. {{Unsigned|98.92.214.22}}
+:I'm guessing it's at [[HIGHCOM Facility Bravo-6]], considering that's where CINCONI Margaret Parangosky's office was.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 20:19, 8 February 2013 (EST)
-:Yeah, I agree, villain is better than antagonist. Villain just says they do evil-like things, but doesn't really say whether they're "good" or "evil". Antagonist clearly says they are working againt the protagonist(s) (in this case John, or humanity in general), which they clearly are not. [[User talk:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:17, 15 January 2012 (EST)
+== Other divisions and offices within ONI ==
-'''''Quote''':'' "“What ONI is trying to accomplish is actually very smart.”
+In Ghosts of Onyx both Rear Admiral [[Ned Rich]] and Captain [[Aaron Gibson]] appear. They are said to be the directors of ONI Section Three's Covert Operations and Black Operations Divisions, respectively. These divisions go completely unmentioned throughout the rest of canon, at least as far as I've seen. Do these positions have any connection the the Beta-5 and Delta-6 Divisions within ONI?
-:I’ll disect the link you posted. It is everything BUT smart.
+Also, in the Halo 2 Anniversary Terminal of Locke's target profile on Thel Vadamee, he mentions the "Office of Retrieval and Acquisitions". I think this could qualify as the unit that he worked under besides just ONI Section Three. [[User:Kcin117|Kcin117]] ([[User talk:Kcin117|talk]]) 16:47, 8 July 2018 (EDT)
-:
-::“The only antagonists among ONI are Section III. Section I and II have jobs that are vital to humanity’s survival – Section I is essentially espionage and counter-espionage, which is an absolute necessity in a post-war universe where Insurrectionists with UNSC secrets could sell them to Brutes or Jackals.”
-:
-:Yes selling vital secrets to the crippled Brutes that have now resorted to in-fighting amongst themselves and being the victems of a xenocide by the Elites is totally dangerous…./sarcasm. The Jackals have sh*t ships to begin with. They also actually ENJOYED trading with humans DURING the war. without any pressure from the Covenant, Jackals are not a threat to humanity as a whole. Most just turned back to their natural state of being pirates, merchants, and traders.
-::“Section II may deal with propaganda, but that in itself does not a villain make – the Allies pumped a constant stream of it during World War II, and most countries continue to. The modern US Military cooperates with Hollywood productions because depicting their personnel and machines is good advertising. After Top Gun, recruitment figures for the Navy jumped. They also have very good reasons not to let people know that Spartans can be killed. During World War II, US comics had superheroes fighting Nazis long before they actually entered the war. Now, imagine that your country is fighting Nazi Germany, is losing, and that these superheroes are real. It would be a major morale boost – hence declassifying them. But you completely lose the effect that has if you also tell people that, sorry, they’re weak against Kryptonite. Everybody uses propaganda – it only becomes a Repugnant and Terribly Unconscionable Thing when it’s done by the “enemy”.”
-:
-:True, but propaganda isn’t really the problem with ONI at all. That is something they NEED to have a chance against extinction. However, starting a pointless war/xenocide is not.
-:
-:“At the same time, Section III’s NavSpecWar and NavSpecWep departments have done the bulk of ONIs immoral actions that we’ve seen so far – NavSpecWep with the SPARTAN-II and -III Programs, and NavSpecWar with their covert warfare against their ostensible “ally” the Sangheili. But, again, they were semi-justified for their ends, if not their means – savin humanity. The SPARTAN-II Program was meant to shut down an Insurrection that could see human-occupied space turn upon itself, colony against colony, an escalating war for territorial and ideological dominance that the UNSC wanted to stop… by imposing their own ideology.”
-:
-:Figures were done by a leading scientist in the Halo universe about the Insurrection. The results were not good. Basically the shattering of the UEG/UNSC and the beginning of conflict again after 300 or so years of peace. F*ck yeah it’s reasonable to make a small group of covert super-soldiers to quell the rebellion and maintain peace. BTW, the “ideology” that they are imposing kept a multi-system human race at total peace for 300 years or so. Then some people decide they have authority issues and start doing bombings killing innocent civilians. Hmmmm, which ideology should we choose? The one that kept mankind at peace for 300+ years? Or the one that blows up random civillians and denied any chance for diplomatic solution? Tough question.
-:
-::“The SPARTAN-III Program was meant to buy humanity time. And it worked. Yes, it saw the deaths of hundreds of supersoldiers, but never needlessly. The operations they engaged in distracted or tied up the Covenant for months, months that the rest of humanity needed.”
-;
-:^ acts as if S-IIs weren’t needed to keep the peace. And if you get into an ethics debate, abducting 75 children and making them the best of humanity with the highest survival rate in TWO wars is >>>> in ethics compared to asking 4 year olds if they want to fight monsters (and at that age they have no concept of what that really entails) then training them to die on suicide missions at the age of 12-14 at hundreds at a time.
-:
-::“And the operations against the Sangheili are also justified – after fighting nearly thirty years against them for survival, humanity understandably is not eager to see them build up their strength. Likewise, the Sangheili resent humanity’s tenacity and creativity, and see us as a threat. Yes, they helped each other destroy the Covenant – but now that the Prophets have disappeared and the remainder of the Covenant have fallen apart, that doesn’t mean anything anymore. They don’t “owe” each other anything. Whoever wins the power struggles of Sanghelios, humanity will be able to take advantage of things. Parangosky is funding the rebels to destabilise the status quo – if the rebels win, the Sangheili are weakened by conflict and political turmoil, humanity have valuable intelligence and contacts and are in a position of strength. If the Arbiter’s faction wins, the Sangheili still resent the hell out of humanity, but are held back by the Arbiter and Hood’s negotiations, and humanity gain valuable intelligence and contacts and are in a position of strength. Whichever side wins, humanity comes out on top. It’s a very interesting Xanatos Gambit – whatever happens, humanity comes out stronger. ”
-"
-:And then we become no better than the enemy. WHY NOT F*CKING ARM THE ELITES THAT ARE ON OUR SIDE?!?! Nope, we will arm the Elites that want to f*cking kill us, and CAN TURN THE ENTIRE SPECIES AGAINST US by pointing and saying “Hey! Humanity gave us these weapons so we could kill eachother! They are all scum, so let’s band together and kill these backstabbers!” What ONI SHOULD have done is give the Elites that ALREADY like us weapons to help fight the rebels, showing that we aren’t a species of douches.
-:
-:At this point in the Halo universe my favorite race is the Grunts (I’m being 100% honest). They have put up with so much shit, and if trained, motivated, educated, and equipped, they would be more effective soldiers than the average human.
--" Endquote '''[[User:Vegerot|<font color="blue">('''or so it says in the sacred caves''')</font> Vegerot!]]''''' 19:15, 21 February 2012 (EST)!
-::I completely agree Vegerot, and to expand on your last point, slightly off topic, is something I found odd in Halo 3 (and one of very few complaints with that game) was that even though the Grunts and Hunters allied with the Sangheili in Halo 2, all you did was fight them in 3. I get that you kinda have to have Grunts to fight from a gameplay perspective, but there could have been SOME friendly ones; same goes for Hunters :/ [[User talk:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:03, 22 February 2012 (EST)
-:::@Vegerot:
-:::*"Yes selling vital secrets to the crippled Brutes that have now resorted to in-fighting amongst themselves and being the victems of a xenocide by the Elites is totally dangerous…./sarcasm. "
-:::That's like saying Russia isn't a threat to the US since the Soviet Union fell. Yes, they're weaker, and there's infighting for political supremacy. But that doesn't mean they can't do damage where it hurts, or that they don't want to, and when someone finally does rise to the top, the Brutes aren't likely to just stay sitting on the sidelines as the Elites mop them up. And Jackals are consummate opportunists - pirates, mercenaries, privateers. You're telling me they wouldn't buy info on UNSC trade routes, weapons, slipspace drives, tactics and strategies, to make their raids go smoother? Or then sell that same information to the highest bidders, who are likely to be the Elites that want us dead?
-:::*"However, starting a pointless war/xenocide is not."
-:::You're missing the point. It's not a hot war - it's a cold one, meant to ''stop'' a hot war, or manipulate it so that the UNSC can better fight one. Parangosky sees war between humanity and the Elites as a long-term '''inevitability'''. By playing the two sides off, they buy time, and ensure that the faction they can beat is the one that will win.
-:::*"F*ck yeah it’s reasonable to make a small group of covert super-soldiers to quell the rebellion and maintain peace. BTW, the “ideology” that they are imposing kept a multi-system human race at total peace for 300 years or so."
-:::I'm not saying I disagree with the ideology. I'm saying that there's no choice given. It's like...go watch Firefly. The rebels vs the Alliance - the colonies want to pave their own path, while the Alliance has a path and wants to impose it on them. A better analogy - Britain has been a powerful empire, prosperous and internally peaceful, for hundreds of years. But the British North American colonists decide they want to do their own thing, Britain sends over troops. It's about freedom and liberty and other words that politicians flick at each other like rubber bands. And ethics? In my Halo? It's less likely than you think. Abducting and training child soldiers is considered a war crime ''today''. I'm not condoning or condemning the aim, I'm saying the ''method'' was wrong.
-:::*"^ acts as if S-IIs weren’t needed to keep the peace."
-:::No, I'm not. Yes, the Insurrection would have had a far better foothold without the Spartans taking out their leaders. But every empire has had to face overextension - Rome. The Ottomans. Russia. France. Britain. All empires that couldn't maintain their distant territories. There are lessons to be learned in how Rome collapsed in on itself, how France couldn't let go of Indochina and it came to bite them in the arse, and how Britain still maintains strong political connections with its former colonies - I should know, I live in one of them. Economic and diplomatic ties are a powerful tool. There's a reason why the Commonwealth of Nations still exists. And your point about the S-III program also misses mine - as John himself finds out early in The Fall of Reach, there's a difference between ''spending'' lives and ''wasting'' them, a distinction that the commanders of S-III know well. I'm not defending anything that was done on ''moral'' grounds, I'm saying that everything had payoffs.
-:::*And then we become no better than the enemy. WHY NOT F*CKING ARM THE ELITES THAT ARE ON OUR SIDE?!?!
-:::Because they're '''not on our side'''. The Arbiter's faction would be quite happy to see us all fall into a black hole. That doesn't make them our enemy, in the same way that their unwillingness to finish us off (yet) doesn't make them our friends. The Elites and the UNSC are the only two major powers left standing after the war - of course they're going to be rivals, economically, politically, and possibly militarily. Another analogy to the post-WWII Soviet Union vs the United States, and the start of an analogous cold war. In the (inevitable, according to ONI) war between the recovering UNSC and the Elites, the Arbiter's faction would be the stronger - so ONI undermines it so that the weaker faction is likely to win. And, can I just say - after defending the S-II Program, you're trying to take the moral highground?
-:::Sorry if this seems rude and combative, but that's how your tone came across to me, and I felt I needed to correct/defend some important points. If it wasn't meant to be, then I apologise, though I stand by my points. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 07:23, 22 February 2012 (EST)
-::::What makes this debate so interesting is that SpecOps (more or less) shares Parangosky and ONI's perspective, and Vegerot (more or less) shares Hood and the UNSC's perspective. I'd bet both will be explored at least to some degree in the new trilogy, for good or ill :) [[User talk:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:39, 22 February 2012 (EST)
-:::::Vegerot gets to be the badass admiral, and I'm the octogenarian shadow puppetmaster? ...yeah, okay I'll give you that one. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 16:47, 22 February 2012 (EST)
-== Section One ==
-I'm surprised we do not put more information about them in the article.  They are probably the biggest part of ONI, think of all the things they've done.  They're the ones who've gathered the information about the Covenant, they are the ones who scavenged the data found on Installation 04, they found Installation 03they were even the ones who spoke with Chakas on Installation 07!  We should put information on what they've done, and that they've discovered Installation 03, etc. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[File:Icon-Vegito2.gif|21px]] [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  19:46, 14 January 2012 (EST)!
-:I plan on doing it once I get Primordium.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}}
-::Not even talking about Primordium, they've done so many other things as well.  Which is why I say they're the biggest part of ONI. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[File:Icon-Vegito2.gif|21px]] [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  20:56, 14 January 2012 (EST)!