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Talk:Terminal (Halo 3): Difference between revisions
→On the new tweets from Paul Russel
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===="Bungie" did not entirely change the forerunners==== | ===="Bungie" did not entirely change the forerunners==== | ||
The tries to address the issue by claiming "''according to Paul Russel, the studio had made the decision (to split humans and forerunners) sometime during the development of Halo 3'''" and sources this tweet from Russel: [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1602455841793347585 "''The Forerunners changed for the Halo 3 terminals. I know everyone responsible for that. It was a change that was vetted and approved by Bungie''"]. | The article tries to address the issue by claiming "''according to Paul Russel, the studio had made the decision (to split humans and forerunners) sometime during the development of Halo 3'''" and sources this tweet from Russel: [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1602455841793347585 "''The Forerunners changed for the Halo 3 terminals. I know everyone responsible for that. It was a change that was vetted and approved by Bungie''"]. | ||
The problem with this is it treats Bungie as a monolith that wholesale changed the forerunners in Halo 3. '''This is not the full truth.''' | The problem with this is it treats Bungie as a monolith that wholesale changed the forerunners in Halo 3. '''This is not the full truth.''' | ||
Paul Russel later clarified [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1603050616028368897 "''The game and terminal writers were separate teams with overlap; they didn’t think the discrepancy would matter; management vetting never read or cared about continuity; morning bagels were more important than canon.''"] Acknowledging that [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1602720596328169475 "''H3 shipped with both versions and both were approved''".] | Paul Russel later clarified [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1603050616028368897 "''The game and terminal writers were separate teams with overlap; they didn’t think the discrepancy would matter; management vetting never read or cared about continuity; morning bagels were more important than canon.''"] Acknowledging that [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1602720596328169475 "''H3 shipped with both versions and both were approved''".] | ||
* According to Russel, Halo 3 shipped with the "Game" team and the "Terminals" team having '''contradicting ideas on the forerunners, and both were approved | * According to Russel, Halo 3 shipped with the "Game" team and the "Terminals" team having '''contradicting ideas on the forerunners, and both were approved''' as management was more focused on shipping the game. | ||
====Terminal forerunners were also early humans==== | ====Terminal forerunners were also early humans==== | ||
Paul also later then clarifies that according his friend who was on the terminal writing team [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1603053863866880000 "''the (terminal) forerunners were a “…subset of early humans uplifted by another group (the precursors?)”.''".] Indicating that in even in the Halo 3 terminals, Forerunners weren't yet entirely separate as depicted in later works by 343i (Forerunner Saga, Halo 4 etc.). The article does bring this up, but notes it as "''disagreement even within the terminal writing team''". | Paul also later then clarifies that according his friend who was on the terminal writing team [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1603053863866880000 "''the (terminal) forerunners were a “…subset of early humans uplifted by another group (the precursors?)”.''".] Indicating that in even in the Halo 3 terminals, Forerunners weren't yet entirely separate as depicted in later works by 343i (Forerunner Saga, Halo 4 etc.). The article does bring this up, but notes it as "''disagreement even within the terminal writing team''". | ||
* But as Paul is clearly saying this is what he was told by '''''a member of the terminal writing team''''' this isn't a "disagreement". '''This is what the terminals actually say.''' Unless another member of the terminal writing says something different, this is truth as from Paul. | * But as Paul is clearly saying this is what he was told by '''''a member of the terminal writing team''''' this isn't a "disagreement". '''This is what the terminals actually say.''' Unless another member of the terminal writing team says something different, this is truth as from Paul. | ||
Of course we later see that the forerunners ''were'' changed to be an entirely separate species in The Forerunner Saga, but that is clearly a change from the terminals. The article already has an section dedicated to differences from the terminals to those books, this is just another one. | Of course we later see that the forerunners ''were'' changed to be an entirely separate species in The Forerunner Saga, but that is clearly a change from the terminals. The article already has an section dedicated to differences from the terminals to those books, this is just another one. | ||
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The article notes that [[Joseph Staten]] and was placed on administrative leave during a period of Halo 3's development, and meanwhile wrote the book [[Contact Harvest]] which included information that humans are forerunners. The article then claims "''Staten was therefore not privy to what was going on with the decisions made for the terminals, explaining his novel's contradiction with Bungie's new stance that humans and Forerunners were separate species.''". But as explained above; "Bungie" did not have a "new stance" wholesale, and Terminal forerunners were also early humans. | The article notes that [[Joseph Staten]] and was placed on administrative leave during a period of Halo 3's development, and meanwhile wrote the book [[Contact Harvest]] which included information that humans are forerunners. The article then claims "''Staten was therefore not privy to what was going on with the decisions made for the terminals, explaining his novel's contradiction with Bungie's new stance that humans and Forerunners were separate species.''". But as explained above; "Bungie" did not have a "new stance" wholesale, and Terminal forerunners were also early humans. | ||
* The article tries to explain this by that first part of the quote being directly from [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1602510864774582272 Paul's tweet], '''but tacks on the second part to fit the incorrect context the author is giving it. Paul only mentioned the terminals here, not all of Bungie.''' Also the reason stated for Joe's leave is incorrect, with "''he was placed on temporary administrative leave to reduce tension within the writing team''" and "''Staten was brought back into the studio just before launch for final polish, after the writing team's differences had been settled.''" '''But that isn't what Paul said. [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1602511567307816960 tension] and [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1602513112850378752 settled differences] wasn't from "writing team", it was with [[Marcus Lehto]].''' | * The article tries to explain this by that first part of the quote being directly from [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1602510864774582272 Paul's tweet], '''but tacks on the second part to fit the incorrect context the author is giving it. Paul only mentioned the terminals here, not all of Bungie.''' Also the reason stated for Joe's leave is incorrect, with "''he was placed on temporary administrative leave to reduce tension within the writing team''" and "''Staten was brought back into the studio just before launch for final polish, after the writing team's differences had been settled.''" '''But that isn't what Paul said. [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1602511567307816960 tension] and [https://twitter.com/docabominable/status/1602513112850378752 settled differences] wasn't from the "writing team", it was with [[Marcus Lehto]].''' | ||
=====Joe was likely on the "humans are forerunners" side===== | =====Joe was likely on the "humans are forerunners" side===== | ||
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I know this was long and the topic has been endlessly controversial, But I'm not trying to flame anyone and again, just want accuracy and neutrality. | I know this was long and the topic has been endlessly controversial, But I'm not trying to flame anyone and again, just want accuracy and neutrality. | ||
[[User:TNS22|TNS22]] ([[User talk:TNS22|talk]]) 02:30, December 19, 2022 (EST) | [[User:TNS22|TNS22]] ([[User talk:TNS22|talk]]) 02:30, December 19, 2022 (EST) | ||
: Weird. I've not kept up on the details here but to me the Terminals have always shown that Forerunners were just ancient humans and not a separate species. I thought that distinction was only introduced in the Forerunner saga novels... -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 07:32, December 19, 2022 (EST) | |||
::I believe that my points are being left as they are, so I'm adding my proposed changes. [[User:TNS22|TNS22]] ([[User talk:TNS22|talk]]) 10:03, December 19, 2022 (EST) | |||
:::Us on the team are still discussing stuff regarding this on the Discord! 😀 We'll probably post here after/before we done some Tweeks!-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 14:08, December 19, 2022 (EST) | |||
::::Ok! So I've seen the new [https://www.halopedia.org/index.php?title=Terminal_(Halo_3)&oldid=1565945 edit] from [[User:Tacitus|Tacitus]] and I have to say I'm thrilled with this! I really have to thank the staff for being able to take the criticism and keeping all my proposed changes! I was honestly thinking this would be a much more heated discussion, but I'm very glad it's been calm and simple. | |||
::::And the decision to merge down the "In ''The Forerunner Saga''" into the "Production Notes" section is a really great one, it looks much nicer this way. I think having the main issue in it's own part in there is also the right move. | |||
::::The lore clarifications and additions made are also appreciated, I think the article is super clear and accurate to current knowledge about all the little details and contentions. In particular the clarification on the exact differences between the original idea and the terminals/iris are really good. Also the point on The Forerunner Saga's point of view is great too, I struggled find a way to word that myself, good change. | |||
::::As someone on the original side of the debate I do want to say that I don't agree with the part on where it says where Contact Harvest and lines Halo 3 may imply the original idea wouldn't be contradictions with the terminals, if they ''do'' mean to say Forerunners are ancient humans as originally thought than wouldn't that be a contradiction the terminals? And isn't that proven for Contact Harvest? I think a better way to say it is that they could be understood in another context regardless. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. But of course given that we don't know what the actual intentions of any exact lines I'm not saying for certain, and I suppose this could be a way of being neutral showing "both sides" as I originally proposed so I'll just leave it at that. :P | |||
::::The one and only thing I think should be changed is the edit from: | |||
:::: * '''"However, it is not known exactly what stance he might have taken on the team." --> "However, how much he knew remains uncertain"'''' | |||
::::I don't understand the new phrasing here, It's not about knowledge, it's about what Joe's intention was right? Isn't it about if he was writing with the original forerunners idea or the new one? If the idea is to make it less combative I think it should be: | |||
:::: * ''''"However, what his intentions might have been remains uncertain."''' or '''"However, what implications he may had remains uncertain."''' | |||
::::Or something along those lines. | |||
::::Again, thanks for listening and for all the great additions! I imagine it was a little tense but I think this has worked out just fine. [[User:TNS22|TNS22]] ([[User talk:TNS22|talk]]) 12:36, December 20, 2022 (EST) | |||
:::::Glad to have this resolved. For the record, I actually agree with your points (and interpretation of Russel's tweets ''and'' the terminals) as do several others in the team. It was mostly just a matter of phrasing things right. | |||
:::::To clarify: ''Contact Harvest'' is not an ''explicit'' contradiction because the information is presented to us by an in-universe character (Mendicant Bias) who may be mistaken. Now, this was almost certainly not Joe Staten's intent at the time, but it's a reasonable interpretation in a scenario where humans and Forerunners are biologically near-identical (which may still be the case if they were uplifted early humans; the biological connection in the original context could've been very close, we just don't know), same with Truth, Guilty Spark, or the Gravemind alluding to humans as being Forerunners. It only becomes a contradiction after the Forerunner Saga clearly establishes them as distinct species, to the point that them being mistaken for the same one isn't as likely anymore. Nevertheless, I see your point about that sentence and it's been changed. --[[User:Tacitus|Tacitus]] ([[User talk:Tacitus|talk]]) 13:19, December 20, 2022 (EST) | |||
::::::I'm glad that we agree, and also to have this resolved. While I still personally think Contact Harvest contradicts the terminals because of Staten's intention, I suppose it's a matter of [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WatsonianVersusDoylist Watsonian versus Doylist] ideology. And also yeah, I think it's good for neutrality. | |||
::::::Finally, I also want to ask if [[Forerunner#Production_notes]] should be updated. I think actions removing "Potentially" from Contact Harvest's mention and changing/clarifying the part about "During the development of Halo 3, this changed so that humans and Forerunners were suggested to be distinct from one another" should be done. [[User:TNS22|TNS22]] ([[User talk:TNS22|talk]]) 13:57, December 20, 2022 (EST) | |||
:::::::Feel free to update the relevant section of the Forerunner article if you like, using this one as a base yeah. No need to ask permission for stuff like that - usually if they're not being done it's simply because someone's just not got around to it yet lol.[[User:BaconShelf|<span style="color:green;">BaconShelf</span>]] <span style="font-size:90%">([[User:BaconShelf|talk]])</span> 14:00, December 20, 2022 (EST) | |||