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Talk:MJOLNIR Powered Assault Armor/Mark IV: Difference between revisions

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Talk:MJOLNIR Powered Assault Armor/Mark IV (edit)

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First off, the Cole Protocol armor is a piece of concept art. That's it. It wasn't divinely handed down by Bungie. It was painted by an artist with a very loose set of guidelines in order to capture the feel of the book. That said, I still believe its canon. But not for all Spartans. No. You see the Spartans in the book were VERY different from other Spartans with a very different mission profile. They likely had different armor, just as Halo 3's Mk VI armor permutations were made for different jobs. Of course this is conjecture but as I'm about to explain, that explanation is likely the only way that the Cole Protocol version can be counted as canon.
First off, the Cole Protocol armor is a piece of concept art. That's it. It wasn't divinely handed down by Bungie. It was painted by an artist with a very loose set of guidelines in order to capture the feel of the book. That said, I still believe its canon. But not for all Spartans. No. You see the Spartans in the book were VERY different from other Spartans with a very different mission profile. They likely had different armor, just as Halo 3's Mk VI armor permutations were made for different jobs. Of course this is conjecture but as I'm about to explain, that explanation is likely the only way that the Cole Protocol version can be counted as canon.


You see, our current policy on canon clearly marks games as higher canon than books. ([[Halopedia:Canon Policy]] - go there, it's great!) Yet we still hold the Cole Protocol image above Halo Wars. First off, that's incredibly stupid and un-halopedian. Secondly, the Cole Protocol cover has nothing to do with the book's canon, it's ARTWORK. It is separate from the book's information, story, and canonicity (I think you spell it that way?). Many of you people say that we should trust Bungie's book (via Subtank: "Bungie's is slightly higher than Ensemble's"). And to many of those people, I wish to inquire about your mental state. The book came from a (relatively new) author who had access to the Halo Bible. Halo Wars also had access to the bible (via Frankie). The art came from a contractor hired by Tor to paint a Halo picture. Where is Bungie involved? NOWHERE. That's the beauty of my argument. And since when does canon have to do with a book's art rather than its story anyways?
You see, our current policy on canon clearly marks games as higher canon than books. ([[Halopedia:Canon policy]] - go there, it's great!) Yet we still hold the Cole Protocol image above Halo Wars. First off, that's incredibly stupid and un-halopedian. Secondly, the Cole Protocol cover has nothing to do with the book's canon, it's ARTWORK. It is separate from the book's information, story, and canonicity (I think you spell it that way?). Many of you people say that we should trust Bungie's book (via Subtank: "Bungie's is slightly higher than Ensemble's"). And to many of those people, I wish to inquire about your mental state. The book came from a (relatively new) author who had access to the Halo Bible. Halo Wars also had access to the bible (via Frankie). The art came from a contractor hired by Tor to paint a Halo picture. Where is Bungie involved? NOWHERE. That's the beauty of my argument. And since when does canon have to do with a book's art rather than its story anyways?


Yet even though we have this hammered out, for the sake of argument, I'm going to concede to the fact that HW is a third party game, just as the books are third party literature. Yet even thought that theoretically puts them at the same level at BEST, our policy still makes no distinction that a third party game is less than a Bungie game. It groups all games as one. One place higher than literature that is. You see, Subtank had a conversation with me earlier about whether Halo Wars information about a vehicle or the Encyclopedia's contradictory information should be kept. We decided that even if both sets of information were from third party companies, what mattered was that games have always ranked higher than books. Always. Halo is a game first and foremost after all.
Yet even though we have this hammered out, for the sake of argument, I'm going to concede to the fact that HW is a third party game, just as the books are third party literature. Yet even thought that theoretically puts them at the same level at BEST, our policy still makes no distinction that a third party game is less than a Bungie game. It groups all games as one. One place higher than literature that is. You see, Subtank had a conversation with me earlier about whether Halo Wars information about a vehicle or the Encyclopedia's contradictory information should be kept. We decided that even if both sets of information were from third party companies, what mattered was that games have always ranked higher than books. Always. Halo is a game first and foremost after all.
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:::As to Exalted Obliteration, I agree completely that this armor has its own variants. You bring up an amazing set of valid points. And I completely agree that BOTH sets of known armor are canon. (Yes I realized that Legends is only just similar to the Halo Wars version. That we agree on.) However, right now, I'm trying to discuss which of the known armor versions we should have as that first picture. In essence, I'm trying to show which version is more well supported, which I've undoubtedly (I think) proven to be the Halo Wars version.--[[User talk:Nerfherder1428|Nerfherder1428]] 11:55, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
:::As to Exalted Obliteration, I agree completely that this armor has its own variants. You bring up an amazing set of valid points. And I completely agree that BOTH sets of known armor are canon. (Yes I realized that Legends is only just similar to the Halo Wars version. That we agree on.) However, right now, I'm trying to discuss which of the known armor versions we should have as that first picture. In essence, I'm trying to show which version is more well supported, which I've undoubtedly (I think) proven to be the Halo Wars version.--[[User talk:Nerfherder1428|Nerfherder1428]] 11:55, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


::::I would like to point that the [[Halopedia:Canon Policy|Canon Policy]] states Halo Games are the superior canon than other media provided that they are ''produced by Bungie employees directly'', thus explaining why I refer ''"Bungie's is slightly higher than Ensemble's"''. Halo Wars was supervised by Bungie in terms of plot/canon issues/advices on developing the story but the design of the Mark IV was left to the artists' interpretation and not by Bungie. Also, note by the first point of our Canon Policy which states ''Current Bungie Employees are the highest source of Canon. They design, authorize, and sanction every detail about Halo that is revealed to the public''. If we were to apply the reasoning test:
::::I would like to point that the [[Halopedia:Canon policy|Canon policy]] states Halo Games are the superior canon than other media provided that they are ''produced by Bungie employees directly'', thus explaining why I refer ''"Bungie's is slightly higher than Ensemble's"''. Halo Wars was supervised by Bungie in terms of plot/canon issues/advices on developing the story but the design of the Mark IV was left to the artists' interpretation and not by Bungie. Also, note by the first point of our Canon policy which states ''Current Bungie Employees are the highest source of Canon. They design, authorize, and sanction every detail about Halo that is revealed to the public''. If we were to apply the reasoning test:
::::1. The Mark IV in TCP is made by Bungie.
::::1. The Mark IV in TCP is made by Bungie.
::::2. The Mark IV in Halo Wars is made by Ensemble (or, to be more specific, [[Blur Studio]])
::::2. The Mark IV in Halo Wars is made by Ensemble (or, to be more specific, [[Blur Studio]])
::::3. Canon Policy dictates Bungie Employees are highest canon.
::::3. Canon policy dictates Bungie Employees are highest canon.
::::4. Thus, Mark IV in TCP is of higher than Halo Wars.
::::4. Thus, Mark IV in TCP is of higher than Halo Wars.
::::Toodles. :) - <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 12:47, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
::::Toodles. :) - <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 12:47, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
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::::::::Then I'd like to formally redact my statements regarding his employee status. :D Yet even still, our Canon policy points to things falling under Employee canon to be things released in interviews etc outside of commercial products right? Or else the games and Contact Harvest would be in the Employee canon sections. Just because things are made by Bungie, doesn't mean they fall within that section. Again, the games wouldn't have their own separate canon listing if that was the case. So once again, wouldn't the cover count towards literature?--[[User talk:Nerfherder1428|Nerfherder1428]] 23:14, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Then I'd like to formally redact my statements regarding his employee status. :D Yet even still, our Canon policy points to things falling under Employee canon to be things released in interviews etc outside of commercial products right? Or else the games and Contact Harvest would be in the Employee canon sections. Just because things are made by Bungie, doesn't mean they fall within that section. Again, the games wouldn't have their own separate canon listing if that was the case. So once again, wouldn't the cover count towards literature?--[[User talk:Nerfherder1428|Nerfherder1428]] 23:14, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Please refrain from using <code>Capslock</code>. If you wish to stress a word or two, use <code><nowiki><b>WORD</b></nowiki></code>. Also, please perform proper research to support your argument in the near future. Anyway, back to the discussion.
:::::::::Please refrain from using <code>Capslock</code>. If you wish to stress a word or two, use <code><nowiki><b>WORD</b></nowiki></code>. Also, please perform proper research to support your argument in the near future. Anyway, back to the discussion.
:::::::::'''Issue #1''': Canon Policy and Where Ensemble's Game falls: Ensemble's Halo Wars would fall in between #2 and #3 but more towards #2. Note that under point 2 of the Canon Policy states that ''"video games was produced by Bungie employees directly"'' whereas point 3 of the Canon Policy states ''"Some of this media is presented by Bungie Affiliates and thus not direct canon from the studio"''. So, in all, Halo Wars' plot and storyline as they were supervised by Bungie would fall under #2, however, the artistic freedom such as the design of units, vehicles and scenery/landscapes would fall under #3. Never assume the content as whole (Halo Wars is not produced only by Ensemble. They are in charge of the gameplay. In terms of designs, they made a contract with various animation/technical studios such as [[Blur Studio]] - Refer to my ''"Reasoning Test"''). Instead, dissect every details of that content and try to determine which place they fall under.
:::::::::'''Issue #1''': Canon policy and Where Ensemble's Game falls: Ensemble's Halo Wars would fall in between #2 and #3 but more towards #2. Note that under point 2 of the Canon policy states that ''"video games was produced by Bungie employees directly"'' whereas point 3 of the Canon policy states ''"Some of this media is presented by Bungie Affiliates and thus not direct canon from the studio"''. So, in all, Halo Wars' plot and storyline as they were supervised by Bungie would fall under #2, however, the artistic freedom such as the design of units, vehicles and scenery/landscapes would fall under #3. Never assume the content as whole (Halo Wars is not produced only by Ensemble. They are in charge of the gameplay. In terms of designs, they made a contract with various animation/technical studios such as [[Blur Studio]] - Refer to my ''"Reasoning Test"''). Instead, dissect every details of that content and try to determine which place they fall under.
:::::::::'''Issue #2''': Regarding Novels and Authors and where they fall under the Canon Policy: As per above, ''Just because things are made by Bungie, doesn't mean they fall within that section.'' This is not really an issue but Contact Harvest will still fall under #3's '''Halo Literature, Soundtracks, and Other Media''' even if it was written by a Bungie Employee. It is the status of the media/product that matters but not as whole. Elements/Details of the product still matters and it is up to us to analyse and conclude where they fall under... but as always, we don't determine what is canon and what is not without concrete proof/support/evidences. The Canon Policy should only be referred to settle disputes on determining what is canon and what is not. Halo: Contact Harvest, written by Joseph Staten, had no major inconsistencies up to this day, thus being irrelevant to this discussion.
:::::::::'''Issue #2''': Regarding Novels and Authors and where they fall under the Canon policy: As per above, ''Just because things are made by Bungie, doesn't mean they fall within that section.'' This is not really an issue but Contact Harvest will still fall under #3's '''Halo Literature, Soundtracks, and Other Media''' even if it was written by a Bungie Employee. It is the status of the media/product that matters but not as whole. Elements/Details of the product still matters and it is up to us to analyse and conclude where they fall under... but as always, we don't determine what is canon and what is not without concrete proof/support/evidences. The Canon policy should only be referred to settle disputes on determining what is canon and what is not. Halo: Contact Harvest, written by Joseph Staten, had no major inconsistencies up to this day, thus being irrelevant to this discussion.
:::::::::Conclusion: The Canon Policy is still in perfect condition and there is no need to update it. If needed, we would require advice from Bungie/Frankie of 343 Industries. Never consider a product as whole. Dissect every detail of a product. Some details in one product might contradict another detail in another product. Such example would be the ODST's BDU in H2 and H3. Analyse the origin of the product and question ''Who made it? Is it Bungie or is it by someone else'', ''When was it made? Was it before or after the official release?'' and ''Was it supervised by Bungie or did the artist had some freedom?''. Final note: Research!- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 00:03, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Conclusion: The Canon policy is still in perfect condition and there is no need to update it. If needed, we would require advice from Bungie/Frankie of 343 Industries. Never consider a product as whole. Dissect every detail of a product. Some details in one product might contradict another detail in another product. Such example would be the ODST's BDU in H2 and H3. Analyse the origin of the product and question ''Who made it? Is it Bungie or is it by someone else'', ''When was it made? Was it before or after the official release?'' and ''Was it supervised by Bungie or did the artist had some freedom?''. Final note: Research!- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 00:03, November 10, 2009 (UTC)


:::You all bring interesting points, but what concerns me is that no Source has said which one is canon.(If I am wrong please give me a link to the source)[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:ODST Crest.png|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 03:50, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
:::You all bring interesting points, but what concerns me is that no Source has said which one is canon.(If I am wrong please give me a link to the source)[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:ODST Crest.png|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 03:50, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
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:::The Halo Wars variation should be the main image, it has been used more than the others. It's been seen being used by oh lets see 17 (more or less) Spartans in Halo Wars, Legends (Origins, and Babysitter). It should be the main image. Also the McFarlane toyline made a Mark IV toy and it's the Halo Wars variation. The Cole Protocol ONLY APPEARS ON THE COVER OF A BOOK. [[User:EchostreamFanJosh|EchostreamFanJosh]]
:::The Halo Wars variation should be the main image, it has been used more than the others. It's been seen being used by oh lets see 17 (more or less) Spartans in Halo Wars, Legends (Origins, and Babysitter). It should be the main image. Also the McFarlane toyline made a Mark IV toy and it's the Halo Wars variation. The Cole Protocol ONLY APPEARS ON THE COVER OF A BOOK. [[User:EchostreamFanJosh|EchostreamFanJosh]]


::::I would like to remind you of our [[Project:Canon Policy|Canon Policy]] where Bungie is of superior canon than third parties.- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 16:57, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
::::I would like to remind you of our [[Project:Canon policy|Canon policy]] where Bungie is of superior canon than third parties.- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 16:57, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


I beleive that both armour variants are canon. I do not believe however that bungie ART supersedes a Ensemble GAME for 2 simple reasons. First, Halo is a game series correct. If that is a case does it not make sense for the game to be higher ranking. Secondly, Bungie sold the Halo IP to microsoft. This means that Microsoft owns Halo. Microsoft appointed Embesel to make Halo Wars. Halo wars is of equal canon to the bungie games. I understand that this goes against the current canon policie that I am pushing to change. Also Gray team was the Elite does it not make sense that they may be given top notch gear(notices mkVI like helmet) while the other spartans were given lower grade gear. the only part of halo wars i believe to be uncanonical is the spartans shields.  --[[User talk:Sierra259|Sierra259]] 21:29, 19 November 2011 (EST)
I beleive that both armour variants are canon. I do not believe however that bungie ART supersedes a Ensemble GAME for 2 simple reasons. First, Halo is a game series correct. If that is a case does it not make sense for the game to be higher ranking. Secondly, Bungie sold the Halo IP to microsoft. This means that Microsoft owns Halo. Microsoft appointed Embesel to make Halo Wars. Halo wars is of equal canon to the bungie games. I understand that this goes against the current canon policie that I am pushing to change. Also Gray team was the Elite does it not make sense that they may be given top notch gear(notices mkVI like helmet) while the other spartans were given lower grade gear. the only part of halo wars i believe to be uncanonical is the spartans shields.  --[[User talk:Sierra259|Sierra259]] 21:29, 19 November 2011 (EST)
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<s>That, in my opinion, is the best way for the two versions to coexist and be part of the same technological lineage that we see in the series. Hopefully more light on this subject will be shown in the future.</s>
<s>That, in my opinion, is the best way for the two versions to coexist and be part of the same technological lineage that we see in the series. Hopefully more light on this subject will be shown in the future.</s>
--[[User talk:Exalted Obliteration|Exalted Obliteration]] 01:24, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
--[[User talk:Exalted Obliteration|Exalted Obliteration]] 01:24, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
{{Quote|Its good to see the reasoning behind why the TCP image can be made consistent with the Mark V and VI, and it makes sense.|Exalted Obliteration}}
{{Quote|Its good to see the reasoning behind why the TCP image can be made consistent with the Mark V and VI, and it makes sense.|Exalted Obliteration}}
:This quote is sufficient enough to resolve the whole Mark IV canon issue.
:This quote is sufficient enough to resolve the whole Mark IV canon issue.
:As Jugus pointed out, Blur Studios ''"just worked with the material they were given"'' and the materials they had at that time were designs of the Mark V (HCE) and the Mark VI (H3). They were not presented any information about the armour being consistent in design or how it differs in previous models. All they had were two armour designs from two different games but decided to rely heavily on the Mark VI (H3). As per Jugus, ''"The Halo Wars version is so radically different it looks more like the Mark VI than a precursor to the Mk V. In fact, there is hardly any similarity other than the helmet."'' In that sense, the Halo Wars version is, and will always be, an artistically-liberal version of the Mark IV. Halo Wars' version is not a variant of the Mark IV, it is just a different design made by another party. This applies to the Japanese company who did the designs of the Mark IV in [[The Package]]. They are still of inferior canon than Bungie. We do determine what is canon and what is of superior canon without proper source. And as [[Halopedia:Canon Policy]] dictates, Bungie's Mark IV would still and will always be of superior canon than Ensemble's/Blur's.<b>[[User:-Ascension-|<font color="#5D8AA8">外<font color="#9BDDFF">国</font>人</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:-Ascension-|<font color="#5D8AA8">7alk</font>]])</sup></b> 01:43, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
:As Jugus pointed out, Blur Studios ''"just worked with the material they were given"'' and the materials they had at that time were designs of the Mark V (HCE) and the Mark VI (H3). They were not presented any information about the armour being consistent in design or how it differs in previous models. All they had were two armour designs from two different games but decided to rely heavily on the Mark VI (H3). As per Jugus, ''"The Halo Wars version is so radically different it looks more like the Mark VI than a precursor to the Mk V. In fact, there is hardly any similarity other than the helmet."'' In that sense, the Halo Wars version is, and will always be, an artistically-liberal version of the Mark IV. Halo Wars' version is not a variant of the Mark IV, it is just a different design made by another party. This applies to the Japanese company who did the designs of the Mark IV in [[The Package (animated short)|The Package]]. They are still of inferior canon than Bungie. We do determine what is canon and what is of superior canon without proper source. And as [[Halopedia:Canon policy]] dictates, Bungie's Mark IV would still and will always be of superior canon than Ensemble's/Blur's.<b>[[User:-Ascension-|<font color="#5D8AA8">外<font color="#9BDDFF">国</font>人</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:-Ascension-|<font color="#5D8AA8">7alk</font>]])</sup></b> 01:43, December 23, 2009 (UTC)


::[http://www.halowars.com/news/devblog/archive/2009/06/23/What-it-takes-to-make-Halo-Wars-art_2C00_-look-like-Halo_3F00_.aspx This article] states that they were unable to get in contact with Bungie's artists too often. Not only that, but it says that a good portion of the artists hadn't even played Halo before. However, we don't know if 343 or Bungie has accepted the design as canon in the Halo universe. I'm all for the Variant idea, but there is still no definitive answer.--[[User talk:TDSpiral94|TDSpiral94]] 00:43, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
::[http://www.halowars.com/news/devblog/archive/2009/06/23/What-it-takes-to-make-Halo-Wars-art_2C00_-look-like-Halo_3F00_.aspx This article] states that they were unable to get in contact with Bungie's artists too often. Not only that, but it says that a good portion of the artists hadn't even played Halo before. However, we don't know if 343 or Bungie has accepted the design as canon in the Halo universe. I'm all for the Variant idea, but there is still no definitive answer.--[[User talk:TDSpiral94|TDSpiral94]] 00:43, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
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So, with additional elaboration on the development history of the C variant in ''Halo: Reach'', it seems that we - once again - have a contradiction on our hands. The description for the [[MJOLNIR Powered Assault Armor/CQC variant|"CQC" variant]], which is the predecessor to the [[MJOLNIR Powered Assault Armor/C variant|"C" variant]] or CQB, states that this earlier model entered service in 2548. Yet, in Legends, we saw Daisy wearing an obvious CQB variant no less than roughly twenty years earlier. Obviously, the appearance in Legends is artistic license and should be treated as such, but it also means we'll have to remove the CQB info on this page. With the info from 343i about the armor components being extremely modular, we could work out an explanation that the armor seen in Homecoming is some early, unrelated model and its appearance was later incorporated to the CQB variant for some reason. I say we change the info on the page to "unknown variant" and possibly mention its aesthetic similarity to the CQB variant.--[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] ([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]]) 16:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
So, with additional elaboration on the development history of the C variant in ''Halo: Reach'', it seems that we - once again - have a contradiction on our hands. The description for the [[MJOLNIR Powered Assault Armor/CQC variant|"CQC" variant]], which is the predecessor to the [[MJOLNIR Powered Assault Armor/C variant|"C" variant]] or CQB, states that this earlier model entered service in 2548. Yet, in Legends, we saw Daisy wearing an obvious CQB variant no less than roughly twenty years earlier. Obviously, the appearance in Legends is artistic license and should be treated as such, but it also means we'll have to remove the CQB info on this page. With the info from 343i about the armor components being extremely modular, we could work out an explanation that the armor seen in Homecoming is some early, unrelated model and its appearance was later incorporated to the CQB variant for some reason. I say we change the info on the page to "unknown variant" and possibly mention its aesthetic similarity to the CQB variant.--[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] ([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]]) 16:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
:Remember to add the [[Template:Conjecturalization|Conjecture templates]].- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 16:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
:Remember to add the Conjecture templates.- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 16:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
::I'll try to add no baseless conjecture so the templates won't be needed. Most of it is based on facts and I won't claim anything we don't already know. Plus, I'll supplement it with notes. I just dislike how intrusive the templates are. Feel free to add them in case the content seems too speculative. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] ([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]]) 18:36, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
::I'll try to add no baseless conjecture so the templates won't be needed. Most of it is based on facts and I won't claim anything we don't already know. Plus, I'll supplement it with notes. I just dislike how intrusive the templates are. Feel free to add them in case the content seems too speculative. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] ([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]]) 18:36, May 12, 2010 (UTC)


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It's pretty clear now that the Halo Wars ediiton of the Mark IV is clearly the original issued Mark IV. This can be proven that Samuel is seen wearing the armor on the new Fall of Reach cover. So therefore the Halo Wars Mark IV needs to be the main image of the Mark IV page. Anybody who opposes this is obviously an idiot. [[User:EchostreamFanJosh|EchostreamFanJosh]]
It's pretty clear now that the Halo Wars ediiton of the Mark IV is clearly the original issued Mark IV. This can be proven that Samuel is seen wearing the armor on the new Fall of Reach cover. So therefore the Halo Wars Mark IV needs to be the main image of the Mark IV page. Anybody who opposes this is obviously an idiot. [[User:EchostreamFanJosh|EchostreamFanJosh]]


:While I agree with the overall sentiment, we don't know it's Samuel. I always assumed it was John, Fred and Kelly. Sam was taller, and the Spartans on the cover don't seem to be different heights. I suppose, since we can't make out faces or body types, it's impossible to tell. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 11:27, July 5, 2010 (UTC)
:While I agree with the overall sentiment, we don't know it's Samuel. I always assumed it was John, Fred and Kelly. Sam was taller, and the Spartans on the cover don't seem to be different heights. I suppose, since we can't make out faces or body types, it's impossible to tell. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 11:27, July 5, 2010 (UTC)


::@Echo: lolno. Bungie's cover is still superior than 343 Industries'. Bungie remains superior until 343 Industries creates something that Bungie hasn't created; should that happen, 343 Industries will be of superior canon. @Specops306, look closely to the number on the right Spartan. You can make out the number 034, which is Samuel's SPARTAN tag.- [[User:-Ascension-|<span style="font-family:Century Gothic; color:#E32636;">Sketch</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:-Ascension-|<span style="font-family:Century Gothic; color:#E32636;">ist</span>]]</sup> 12:29, July 5, 2010 (UTC)
::@Echo: lolno. Bungie's cover is still superior than 343 Industries'. Bungie remains superior until 343 Industries creates something that Bungie hasn't created; should that happen, 343 Industries will be of superior canon. @Specops306, look closely to the number on the right Spartan. You can make out the number 034, which is Samuel's SPARTAN tag.- [[User:-Ascension-|<span style="font-family:Century Gothic; color:#E32636;">Sketch</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:-Ascension-|<span style="font-family:Century Gothic; color:#E32636;">ist</span>]]</sup> 12:29, July 5, 2010 (UTC)
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:The Reach Armory seems to wrap things up nicely. The Mark V helmet, the one the Master Chief wore in Halo: CE, is an updated version of the original Mark IV helmet, apparently confirming the Halo Wars version as the baseline variant. Even the journal constantly refers to the Mark V-style helmet as the Mark IV helmet, including detailed sketch diagrams. The Grenadier variant states that the [g] helmet was designed from the baseline Mark IV helmet, further adapted for Mark V use - thus accomodating the Cole Protocol, and clarifying that Grey Team (or at least the member depicted on the cover) was wearing the Grenadier variant of the Mark IV. It also states that the [g] chestplate pioneered the use of energy shields, apparently confirming that the Mark IV must have used shields in at least one variant, in at least one stage of development before the Mark V's introduction into service. For those who dislike 343i, this is coming straight from Bungie, the horse's mouth - no chance of non-canonicity here. Some of the Mark IV suits had shields. After that it's just quibbling over statistics and dates.
:The Reach Armory seems to wrap things up nicely. The Mark V helmet, the one the Master Chief wore in Halo: CE, is an updated version of the original Mark IV helmet, apparently confirming the Halo Wars version as the baseline variant. Even the journal constantly refers to the Mark V-style helmet as the Mark IV helmet, including detailed sketch diagrams. The Grenadier variant states that the [g] helmet was designed from the baseline Mark IV helmet, further adapted for Mark V use - thus accomodating the Cole Protocol, and clarifying that Grey Team (or at least the member depicted on the cover) was wearing the Grenadier variant of the Mark IV. It also states that the [g] chestplate pioneered the use of energy shields, apparently confirming that the Mark IV must have used shields in at least one variant, in at least one stage of development before the Mark V's introduction into service. For those who dislike 343i, this is coming straight from Bungie, the horse's mouth - no chance of non-canonicity here. Some of the Mark IV suits had shields. After that it's just quibbling over statistics and dates.


:And If you're going by Halsey's Journal, then I interpreted it differently - that the Mark IV through Mark VII are all one armour system, but with improvements to the basic system modularised on paper, basically rendering the "Mark" a term used by the military, still labouring under the belief that Halsey is modularising her program. She states that she's been introducing improvements onto the Mark IV as she creates them, gradually improving it until the only way to make it better is a total overhaul, inside and out. The only real improvement Halsey stated was meant for the Mark VI over the Mark V was the inclusion of biofoam injector ports, a plasma reactor system, environmental modularity to stop the kind of field upgrades that Noble team were so fond of, and shields - the latter, at least, were incorporated into the Mark V. I assume this means that there is less difference between the Mark IV, V and VI than we ever thought, and that the only differences was shield systems, biofoam injectors, HUD modifications, etc. I don't know what this means for the still hypothetical Mark VII - Halsey claims to have planned energy shield "parasails", the ability to jump from slipspace on its own into realspace without even a SOEIV, and the ability to allow AI interaction and transfer through other parts of the armour - again, the latter was incorporated into the Mark VI, according to Halo 2. All this means that features meant for later models were being incorporated into earlier models - the existing armour systems are being nicely tied together into a single continuous series. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 11:16, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
:And If you're going by Halsey's Journal, then I interpreted it differently - that the Mark IV through Mark VII are all one armour system, but with improvements to the basic system modularised on paper, basically rendering the "Mark" a term used by the military, still labouring under the belief that Halsey is modularising her program. She states that she's been introducing improvements onto the Mark IV as she creates them, gradually improving it until the only way to make it better is a total overhaul, inside and out. The only real improvement Halsey stated was meant for the Mark VI over the Mark V was the inclusion of biofoam injector ports, a plasma reactor system, environmental modularity to stop the kind of field upgrades that Noble team were so fond of, and shields - the latter, at least, were incorporated into the Mark V. I assume this means that there is less difference between the Mark IV, V and VI than we ever thought, and that the only differences was shield systems, biofoam injectors, HUD modifications, etc. I don't know what this means for the still hypothetical Mark VII - Halsey claims to have planned energy shield "parasails", the ability to jump from slipspace on its own into realspace without even a SOEIV, and the ability to allow AI interaction and transfer through other parts of the armour - again, the latter was incorporated into the Mark VI, according to Halo 2. All this means that features meant for later models were being incorporated into earlier models - the existing armour systems are being nicely tied together into a single continuous series. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 11:16, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


::Ahh. You've stated everything I had planned to mention, Specops. For those who might doubt him, he's totally correct. The journal confirms that all the MJOLNIRs are revisions of a progenitor model rather than being separate iterations. The Mark system, which didn't even exist until 2535, was instituted as a means of fiscal nonsense and beaurocratic red tape; Halsey had no intention of honoring it. While she agreed to produce the primary MJOLNIR models on a neat schedule, she vowed to give the SPARTANs the armor they needed as they needed it. This obviously takes into account the ''Cole Protocol'' and ''Halo Wars'' suits, but it also explains the suit from ''The Package''. She mentions that some of the Mark IV suits possessed unsuccessful, prototypical shielding systems; while this ostensibly refers to the Mark IV [G], it might even refer to the SPARTANs' shields in ''Halo Wars'', though I'm still inclined to say it's merely a gameplay mechanic. Those who hate 343 Industries have nothing to say anymore; Bungie themselves, with Eric Nylund's help, have finally resolved the Mark IV debate. Case closed. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|&quot;Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson]] 14:25, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
::Ahh. You've stated everything I had planned to mention, Specops. For those who might doubt him, he's totally correct. The journal confirms that all the MJOLNIRs are revisions of a progenitor model rather than being separate iterations. The Mark system, which didn't even exist until 2535, was instituted as a means of fiscal nonsense and beaurocratic red tape; Halsey had no intention of honoring it. While she agreed to produce the primary MJOLNIR models on a neat schedule, she vowed to give the SPARTANs the armor they needed as they needed it. This obviously takes into account the ''Cole Protocol'' and ''Halo Wars'' suits, but it also explains the suit from ''The Package''. She mentions that some of the Mark IV suits possessed unsuccessful, prototypical shielding systems; while this ostensibly refers to the Mark IV [G], it might even refer to the SPARTANs' shields in ''Halo Wars'', though I'm still inclined to say it's merely a gameplay mechanic. Those who hate 343 Industries have nothing to say anymore; Bungie themselves, with Eric Nylund's help, have finally resolved the Mark IV debate. Case closed. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|&quot;Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson]] 14:25, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
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== Article Cleanup ==
== Article Cleanup ==
I'd like to suggest this article be marked for a good cleanup.  At the very least there seem to be a boatload of grammatical issues (of varying severity), plus scattered direct quotes from canon material which don't appear to be cited properly [[User: ElFroCampeador|ElFroCampeador]] <sup>[[User talk:ElFroCampeador|<font color="red">TALK</font>]]</sup> [[Image:Sergeant-gr1.gif|20px]] 23:54, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest this article be marked for a good cleanup.  At the very least there seem to be a boatload of grammatical issues (of varying severity), plus scattered direct quotes from canon material which don't appear to be cited properly [[User: ElFroCampeador|ElFroCampeador]] <sup>[[User talk:ElFroCampeador|<font color="red">TALK</font>]]</sup> File:Sergeant-gr1.gif|20px]] 23:54, August 18, 2010 (UTC)


:I've cleared up the citation part, if there are any grammatical issues, address them so long as it doesn't change how it was initially presented in official sources. The article already went though a major clean up, so as I see it, it only needs corrections nothing more. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 02:02, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
:I've cleared up the citation part, if there are any grammatical issues, address them so long as it doesn't change how it was initially presented in official sources. The article already went though a major clean up, so as I see it, it only needs corrections nothing more. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 02:02, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
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== Possible canonical explanation for HW and CP Mark IV variants ==
== Possible canonical explanation for HW and CP Mark IV variants ==


I've been doing a little bit of research and I think there is a canonical reason for the Halo Wars and Cole Protocol Mark IV.
:I've been doing a little bit of research and I think there is a canonical reason for the Halo Wars and Cole Protocol Mark IV.
 


The Halo Wars Mark IV is the MJOLNIR PAA. The PAA was rushed into production due to the new threat, the Covenant. The first and only MJOLNIR suit Samuel wears is the "Halo Wars" Mark IV. He is seen wearing the HW armor in two pieces of media, the Fall of Reach re-released book and comic. Since Samuel received this armor right at the beginning of the war it stands to reason that the Halo Wars armor is the MJOLNIR PAA.
:The Halo Wars Mark IV is the MJOLNIR PAA. The PAA was rushed into production due to the new threat, the Covenant. The first and only MJOLNIR suit Samuel wears is the "Halo Wars" Mark IV. He is seen wearing the HW armor in two pieces of media, the Fall of Reach re-released book and comic. Since Samuel received this armor right at the beginning of the war it stands to reason that the Halo Wars armor is the MJOLNIR PAA.


In 2535 the Final Production model is released. During this same year the Battle of the Rubble takes place. The Cole Protocol cover shows a depiction of Grey Team during 2535. This armor is not seen in any media taking place before 2535. Thus the Cole Protocol armor is the Final Production Model.
:In 2535 the Final Production model is released. During this same year the Battle of the Rubble takes place. The Cole Protocol cover shows a depiction of Grey Team during 2535. This armor is not seen in any media taking place before 2535. Thus the Cole Protocol armor is the Final Production Model.


The design of the Final Production Model is carried over to the Mark V version 1. It's confirmed that the armor Noble Team wears (except Jorge) is Mark V but the first version. The armor that the Chief wears a year later is the second version. This is why they both look different. So there's already different versions of the Mark V canonically, so it makes sense the same goes for the Mark IV.
:The design of the Final Production Model is carried over to the Mark V version 1. It's confirmed that the armor Noble Team wears (except Jorge) is Mark V but the first version. The armor that the Chief wears a year later is the second version. This is why they both look different. So there's already different versions of the Mark V canonically, so it makes sense the same goes for the Mark IV.


Unless 343i decides to release pre-2535 media that shows the Cole Protocol styled Mark IV, I feel this theory is the best explanation and may be true. [[User:ADinoSupremacist|ADinoSupremacist]]
:Unless 343i decides to release pre-2535 media that shows the Cole Protocol styled Mark IV, I feel this theory is the best explanation and may be true. [[User:ADinoSupremacist|ADinoSupremacist]]


Interesting theory, ADinoSupremacist.
Interesting theory, ADinoSupremacist.
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If your theory is correct, then why were so many SPARTAN-IIs' consistently wearing and utilizing what is technically an inferior armor configuration? Given that the TCP one is largely a proto-Mark V sans shields, why aren't all of the other SPARTAN-IIs' using it instead of the early, functionally inferior model?--[[User talk:Exalted Obliteration|Exalted Obliteration]] 00:47, 6 April 2012 (EDT)
If your theory is correct, then why were so many SPARTAN-IIs' consistently wearing and utilizing what is technically an inferior armor configuration? Given that the TCP one is largely a proto-Mark V sans shields, why aren't all of the other SPARTAN-IIs' using it instead of the early, functionally inferior model?--[[User talk:Exalted Obliteration|Exalted Obliteration]] 00:47, 6 April 2012 (EDT)


I'm not fully understanding what you're asking. Are you referring to things such as Cal wearing the possible PAA? For all we know that could just be another artistic license that Halo: Legends is filled with. After all the Elites and Brutes had Samurai like armor in that episode. Though it could be possible that not all of the FPMs were made at the same time, they are rather expensive. --[[User talk:ADinoSupremacist|ADinoSupremacist]] 19:33, 6 April 2012 (EDT)
:I'm not fully understanding what you're asking. Are you referring to things such as Cal wearing the possible PAA? For all we know that could just be another artistic license that Halo: Legends is filled with. After all the Elites and Brutes had Samurai like armor in that episode. Though it could be possible that not all of the FPMs were made at the same time, they are rather expensive. --[[User talk:ADinoSupremacist|ADinoSupremacist]] 19:33, 6 April 2012 (EDT)
 
Not quite. The question I was asking was if the iteration used by Grey Team is the standard issue suit, particularly one which could employ numerous attachments and variant components, why is an older, less flexible design used more frequently.
 
In other words, why were the main-line, standard SPARTAN-IIs' not subsequently using suits identical to Grey Team's in the years after 2535 and 2536. That proto-Mark V configuration is functionally superior to the earlier Mark IV suits in every way, so there is no reason for why the non-specialist SPARTAN-IIs' wouldn't be given that structural configuration some time afterward.
 
In regards to the 'Babysitter' episode, that was a mix of artistic license and canonical representations; the hair styles of the characters was an anime flourish, while the armor worn by Cal, the Brutes, and the Elites was in fact canon. The Grunts are to be taken with a grain of salt, along with overall character design style, but some elements were canon. The ruins would actually look that way, and the ceremonial armor worn by the honor guards there would suggest some kind of cultural and religious acknowledgement towards the ruins and its builders.
 
What did the Covenant know about the ruins that the UNSC did not?
 
But back on topic, I find it somewhat strange that the core group of SPARTAN-IIs' were not given that armor structure configuration as their suits to wear until August 27, 2552, rather than primarily relying upon the early-war armor configuration.
 
Which raises another question; what is so good in-universe about the Halo Wars version relative to its successors? Unless there were small structural upgrades made to the suit over time, it should have readily been rendered obsolete by later developments of the Mark IV generation.--[[User talk:Exalted Obliteration|Exalted Obliteration]] 00:45, 7 April 2012 (EDT)
 
:Well, many of permutations of the Mark V are mostly just changes to the outer plating, adding things like differing shoulder pads trading flexibility or protection, or hooks and outlets for combining other equipment, etc. This suggests that the MJOLNIR in general is highly modular outwardly, and a differing physical appearance may not mean the interior likewise differs, or vice versa. With that in mind, it may be that the Mark IV seen being worn by Blue Team may simply appear identical from the 2520s to the 2550s, but really was being upgraded internally throughout all those years, though the outside plating was kept the same based on preferences. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 01:16, 7 April 2012 (EDT)
 
Now that I think about it, that would definitely make sense. The MJOLNIR Project Videos released by 343 last year made that clear, alongside earlier statements and thoroughly solidified by Halsey's Journal. Another thing I noticed about most depictions of the dominant Mark IV configuration is that they consistently fail to point out a few key features of those suits; the pauldrons are mounted separately from the armor below them, while the chest plates are meant to rise and fall with the user's movements. From what I have seen of the armor in "Halo: Fall of Reach: The Covenant", that seems to be the case.
 
It's an understandable oversight, even if it is unnecessary, but in the case of the comic, I can see that being somewhat understandable. The art style does not readily lend itself to such subtle details, and it may even be more than that. My impression is that the large number of moving parts as seen in 2531 etc. may actually be an upgrade to the earlier version. Perhaps the most of the depictions with a seeming lack of the said moving parts is what the first line was like.
 
Any external upgrades to that iteration would probably only really need to be its metallic composition, movement qualities, refractive coatings, magnetic holders, etc., which were probably implemented quickly during the Harvest campaign. Given that this version is apparently quite functional and versatile without major physical changes probably would explain why so many SPARTAN-IIs would use it. It would be definitely be the least expensive suit to employ, since there would only need to be small, incremental, and internal changes made.
 
The infamous TCP/Grey Team version, on the other hand, I recall Mr. O'Connor referring to it as being an offshoot of the initial Mark IV model. The same was said of the Halo Wars iteration. Given how close it is to the original issued suit, it is probably its moderately upgraded direct successor, while the other one would eventually lay the groundwork for the Mark V in 2551-2552.--[[User talk:Exalted Obliteration|Exalted Obliteration]] 19:43, 8 April 2012 (EDT)
 
:Indeed, the former even looks more modular, versus the TCP's compactness. Hadn't thought that could happen, though, the offshoot ending up swallowing the main model! [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 20:01, 9 April 2012 (EDT)


==Gaggle of Mark IV armor images removed: Why?==
==Gaggle of Mark IV armor images removed: Why?==


I couldn't help but notice that a large majority of images of different variants of the MJOLNIR Mark IV armor both from ''Halo Wars'' and from ''Halo Legends'' have been removed, such as [[:File:HW promo mjolnir.png|this first image]] (Scratch that, this may warrant removal), [[:File:Halo Character Spartan Render.jpg|this second image]], [[:File:Halo Legends Spartan-117.png|this third image]], and finally this [[:File:HaloLegends-MasterChief-transparent.png|this fourth and final image]] here. I can sort of understand why we might remove the conceptual images from ''Halo Wars'', but I question the reasons why we removed the images of the armor from Dr. Halsey's journal. So, all in all, could someone please explain to me why some of these images were removed? --[[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 18:40, 6 April 2012 (EDT)Xamikaze330
I couldn't help but notice that a large majority of images of different variants of the MJOLNIR Mark IV armor both from ''Halo Wars'' and from ''Halo Legends'' have been removed, such as [[:File:HW promo mjolnir.png|this first image]] (Scratch that, this may warrant removal), [[:File:Halo Character Spartan Render.jpg|this second image]], [[:File:Halo Legends Spartan-117.png|this third image]], and finally this this fourth and final image here. I can sort of understand why we might remove the conceptual images from ''Halo Wars'', but I question the reasons why we removed the images of the armor from Dr. Halsey's journal. So, all in all, could someone please explain to me why some of these images were removed? --[[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 18:40, 6 April 2012 (EDT)Xamikaze330


:Huh. Those images are actually high quality, and illustrate important appearances. I don't know why they'd be removed. I manually restored the last image before I found this comment, but I'd be interested to hear why they were removed in the first place before restoring the others. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 18:48, 6 April 2012 (EDT)
:Huh. Those images are actually high quality, and illustrate important appearances. I don't know why they'd be removed. I manually restored the last image before I found this comment, but I'd be interested to hear why they were removed in the first place before restoring the others. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 18:48, 6 April 2012 (EDT)


Ask [[User:Subtank|Subs]], since she's the one who removed them. Maybe because she was moving them all to [[:Category:Images of MJOLNIR Mark IV|here]]. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 18:53, 6 April 2012 (EDT)
Ask [[User:Subtank|Subs]], since she's the one who removed them. Maybe because she was moving them all to [[:Category:Images of MJOLNIR Mark IV|here]]. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 18:53, 6 April 2012 (EDT)
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:There is a link to the image category in the article (see Trivia section). I suggest reading the article first rather than jumping straight to the image gallery section. ;)
:There is a link to the image category in the article (see Trivia section). I suggest reading the article first rather than jumping straight to the image gallery section. ;)
:As for why, it's simply because we don't need to stuff all related images into the article, just the most relevant ones. This is also the reason behind why the gallery section of the Halo 4 article was shortened. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 21:09, 6 April 2012 (EDT)
:As for why, it's simply because we don't need to stuff all related images into the article, just the most relevant ones. This is also the reason behind why the gallery section of the Halo 4 article was shortened. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 21:09, 6 April 2012 (EDT)
::Thank you for taking the time to give some answers. I understand better now than I did before, and I am satisfied by the changes. I rest my case. --[[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 22:08, 6 April 2012 (EDT)Xamikaze330
== Mark IV  ==
I took another spin with ''Reach''<nowiki />'s armour gallery and I noticed something interesting with my Mark V configuration. The armour description describes the helmet as such:
{{Article quote|The Mk. V helmet is essentially the Mk. IV upgraded to function with MJOLNIR’s new shield system.}}
So, I was wondering if it would be appropriate to put images of ''Reach''<nowiki />'s MJOLNIR Mk.V in this article if we are to follow every word of this description. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  11:09, 21 October 2012 (EDT)
:If we follow every word of the description, I see no problem with putting ''Reach''<nowiki />'s MJOLNIR Mk.V images in the article.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 11:27, 21 October 2012 (EDT)
== Variations ==
Seeing as how FuD uses the package design, I think that's canonical confirmation that the appearance of that version of mk IV is canonical. Therefore, I think it's appropriate to list the different versions of the armor we have seen so far in the "variants" section of the article, instead of the trivia section. Can this be done? http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 19:30, 4 November 2012 (EST)
:The Mark IV appearance, in terms of design, has been inconsistent throughout the entire franchise, to the extent that ''"all external design/aesthetics are irrelevant"'' as suggested by Frankie. So, to put it bluntly, no. Also, can you please upload your image to this wiki, in case the image is removed from Imageshack.— <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  20:31, 4 November 2012 (EST)
:: No more inconsistent than MK 5 or 6. The amount of variations we see in those versions are a lot larger. Babysitter, Halo wars, the cover of the reprint of fall of reach, and so on all use the same external design, and "The Package" and FuD use another.
::It'd be an assumption to say one design is the base, but it's perfectly objective to say that there have been a variety of external designs seen, and simply list them along with the canonically explained versions.
::Oh, and what image?http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 17:44, 5 November 2012 (EST)
:::The blunt "no" was in response of your second sentence of your comment "listing in the variants section". This suggestion has been [http://www.halopedia.org/index.php?title=MJOLNIR_Powered_Assault_Armor/Mark_IV&oldid=908779 done before]. Because of the frequent inconsistencies in the Mark IV design throughout the franchise, it is a safer and better approach to just list them via gallery and trivia sections since it is unclear why there's so many variations of the armour.
:::And I am referring to your "Imageshack" signature image. — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  20:26, 5 November 2012 (EST)
::::May I ask what's wrong with the way it is in the link to the older version? It's a lot more straightfoward in the differences in the armor types, whereas how it is now has the whole article purely canonical, and then squeezes all the stuff about the visual design into the trivia and notes section. I'll do the signature tommorow, if I remember.http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 21:20, 5 November 2012 (EST)
:::::I would think that the overhaul was done because there are too many variations of the Mark IV in recent media and that to provide a description of each variation (to the tiniest of detail) would not be the best way to show how one variation is different from another. To put them into a gallery and adding notes to each gallery image seems to be the best way: sometimes it's better to leave the task to the readers/visitors for them to compare the images and see what notes is attached to each image. — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  21:50, 5 November 2012 (EST)
== Mark IV Armor Comparisons between ''Halo 4: Forward Unto Dawn'' and ''Halo Legends: The Package'' ==
I don't know if this should be added to the article's trivia section or if anyone else noticed, but I did however note one or maybe two changes from the MJOLNIR Mark IV in ''Halo Legends: The Package'' and the armor in ''Halo 4: Forward Unto Dawn''. One minor distinction is that the armor in H4FUD has some kind of blue light right underneath John-117's stenciled serial numbers on the left side of his breastplate. I did cross check and found this minor detail is ''not'' present in the MJOLNIR Mark IV armor seen in ''The Package''. I wasn't sure if anyone else noticed that besides me, but in case you didn't, now you know. Do any of you think this should be noted somewhere? --[[User:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] ([[User talk:Xamikaze330|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Xamikaze330|contribs]]) 13:26, 1 December 2012 (EST)Xamikaze330
:It has been, in the notes section. They resemble the lights used on the Mark VI and V to project shields, but this Mark IV clearly has none. It must be just a light, then. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 13:25, 2 December 2012 (EST)
::Hey, I just had a thought. I was wondering, which one came first? In note 3, it said that eighteen years had elapsed between the web series and the short. First off, I would like to know the source for the supposed eighteen years elapsed. Secondly, to reiterate, which one came first? ''Forward Unto Dawn'' or ''The Package''? --'''''[[User:Xamikaze330|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Halo;">Xamikaze330</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Xamikaze330|<font color="Blue">Transmission</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Xamikaze330|<font color="Green">Commencing</font>]]''''']</small> 12:47, 29 July 2013 (EDT)Xamikaze330
:::I suggest looking closer to the in-universe dates of both media. ''Forward unto Dawn'' webseries was set in 2526 while ''Halo: Legends''<nowiki />'s ''The Package'' took place in 2544. Simple math would make it a span of 18 years between the two. — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  12:54, 29 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Oh, well then, that makes sense. Guess that answers both my questions. Thanks. --'''''[[User:Xamikaze330|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Halo;">Xamikaze330</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Xamikaze330|<font color="Blue">Transmission</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Xamikaze330|<font color="Green">Commencing</font>]]''''']</small> 12:58, 29 July 2013 (EDT)Xamikaze330
== "Shielding lights"? ==
In [[MJOLNIR_Powered_Assault_Armor/Mark_IV#cite_note-24|this note]], it stated that the lights on the armor indicate energy shielding technology. Source on this so-called "shielding lights"? — [[User:Hacame|<span style="color:#6699FF; font-family:Futura; font-size:14px; font-weight:bold;">Ha</span>]][[User talk:Hacame|<span style="color:#6699FF; font-family:Futura; font-size:14px; font-weight:bold;">came</span>]] 03:50, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:I've never understood where the association came from. So far as I know, nothing in the games, books or animated stuff has ever hinted that the lights are linked to energy shield generation. Why would the emitters need to even be visible? -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 08:19, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::It comes from the gameplay. I don't know if they've ever been called "emitters" in the canon, or by an actual source, nor do I know if they actually emit the shield, but they are definitely tied to the shields. I believe in Halo 3, when your shields went down the lights turned off. In Reach it's more obvious as they actually flash when your shields are down. One of the best places to see this is the eearly Reach episodes of RvB, in the past they had always popped or disabled the shields to remove the shield effects but when they did so in Reach it caused the flashing. So yeah, it is connected to the shields in some way.--[[User:Soul reaper|Soul reaper]] ([[User talk:Soul reaper|talk]]) 11:21, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:In ''The Fall of Reach'', when John first receives his new Mark V, he notices a new addition is lights on it. Note that Elites' armor also contains emitters. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 13:09, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::You mean this sentence? ''"The fusion pack was half again as large, and tiny luminous slits glowed near the articulation points."'' I think those are the MJOLNIR's power supply control unit (PSCU) indicators. These indicators would indicate the stress pattern on the power distribution for the energy shielding; the indicators would start blinking to indicate that the PSCU is struggling to balance the power distribution as the shielding absorbs damage. Also, even the [[SPI]] armors have these lights. — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  14:08, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
Huh, never noticed them in the games. Neat. — [[User:Hacame|<span style="color:#6699FF; font-family:Futura; font-size:14px; font-weight:bold;">Ha</span>]][[User talk:Hacame|<span style="color:#6699FF; font-family:Futura; font-size:14px; font-weight:bold;">came</span>]] 06:24, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
In hindsight opened shield emitters don't seem like a good idea at all, couldn't that cause heating issues? --[[User:SpartanS36|SpartanS36]] ([[User talk:SpartanS36|talk]]) 20:47, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
So, are they shielding lights or power indicators? — [[User:Hacame|<span style="color:#6699FF; font-family:Futura; font-size:14px; font-weight:bold;">Ha</span>]][[User talk:Hacame|<span style="color:#6699FF; font-family:Futura; font-size:14px; font-weight:bold;">came</span>]] 01:50, 4 August 2013 (EDT)
==Infobox image change==
Seeing as this is one of the more sensitive articles. I thought I should ask before I do any changes.
The Infobox seems a little weird to have seeing as we have plenty images of the actual armor. And the armor in the image is more a schematic where there was changes Halsey made to it.
So can we change the image?
<gallery>
File:Mark_IV_schematic.jpg|Current Infobox image
File:MarkIV render.png|Proposed image(that render is even used in the Blur cutscenes)
File:Mjolnir MkIV.png|I do not suggest this image though as its a Halo Wars Work in progress image. Before anyone suggests it. (the design is different to the one used)
</gallery>
So it looks more like the other pages like Mark V or Mark VI? I mean plenty canon show the base Mark IV to look something like that like that. Even the Fall of Reach Animation uses the body of it(with a different undersuit yes but still same exact armor) --[[User:CIA391|CIA391]]''<sup>[[User talk:CIA391|(talk)]] 23:23, 18 January 2016 (GMT)</sup>
:The change was made when there was still more of a debate on whether the ''Halo Wars'' version was ''the'' definitive Mark IV. By now it seems like it is, so I'm not against changing the image. However, I'd prefer it if we could find one that shows the whole suit. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 00:34, 19 January 2016 (EST)
==Types of helmets==
Okay so who can actually get through the bad art to tell what these helmets are.
<gallery>
File:Mark_IV_Operator.png|Operator?
File:Mark IV Scout-like.png|Scout/Operator again?
File:Damascus Materials Testing Facility Helmets.png|Pretty confident that's Mark VI on the far right.
</gallery>
[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 15:25, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:Correct on all counts. The first is an Operator with B5D-O/Optics suite, the second is the Scout in its ''Reach'' look (with the visor underlining seam gold too for some reason). Halsey's holding what appears to be an EVA, John accidentally smashes it, then she hands him the Mark VI helmet that turns into a Mark IV. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 15:37, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::(It's just like the armor-changing Zealot in Escalation) Well that's good enough for me to say that Operator and Scout (which means Recon too) started off as Mark IV variants.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 15:51, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I was personally weary calling them the variants I thought they were seeing as they were
:::*A) Bad art.
:::*B) No official statement. 
:::I mean they could be called something totally different. But I am cool if you guys think that.
:::Also in regards to Recon. I say not to add that in as even though it was made with Recon. I mean research might of started. But the actual creation didnt happen till prior to the fall of Reach.--[[User:CIA391|CIA391]]''<sup>[[User talk:CIA391|(talk)]] 20:51, 20 January 2016 (GMT)
I think we should be careful on this subject. If there are explicit dates that are in conflict (Sam's CQB and Kelly's Air Assault), then we should point out that these are designs that later inspired these armor variants. The same goes for the Mark VI-like Mark IVs, I don't really like the way it's said. A section for "Mark IV developmental helmets/armors" might be necessary. It should explain the reason of these armors' existence, based on Grim's explanations (see below). And then, and only then, should we mention that this or that design later inspired the Mark VI, the CQB, the Air Assault, etc.
Note also that [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5j3_6Mbs4A the physical appearance of Mjolnir armors means very little]. I've also seen that in one of Frankie's post on HBO, but I don't have it. So this fits with what Grim said. For example, the appearance of Sam's CQB inspired the eventual CQB, but it was not a specific prototype. It was just a Mark IV developmental helmet. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 03:52, 21 January 2016 (EST)
==Grim's comments==
There are many things that Grim said on this subject. I'd like to copy them here, both for the sake of the debate and for 'source' purposes. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 03:52, 21 January 2016 (EST)
'''Grim:'''
"Fictionally: You realize that lots of tech is prototyped YEARS in advance, right?
Practically: Sometimes you make decisions based on the need to make relateable connections. Every once in a while that might not jive with random scattered details that were "preestablished." It's not remotely egregious enough to not be able to enjoy the whole piece because of it lol. Embrace the details when they line up (which they usually do), and don't fret the ones that don't necessarily do so exactly how you would want it to (as well as assume there is always some sort of reason for why it was done that way)."[https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/db05ce78845f4120b062c50816008e5d/topics/about-that-fall-of-reach-animated-series-trailer/e114975f-ddcc-4109-bf72-e4d8efc29ec5/posts?page=1#post6 (Source)]
'''Grim:'''
"Nothing has changed about the CQB variant of the Mjolnir armor system. Samuel is utilizing a developmental helmet permutation that shares visual cues with the eventual CQB. This kind of cross-germination of physical shape and design between all Mjolnir platforms was pervasive in the early development of Mjolnir at the Materials Group facilities." [https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/db05ce78845f4120b062c50816008e5d/topics/about-that-fall-of-reach-animated-series-trailer/e114975f-ddcc-4109-bf72-e4d8efc29ec5/posts?page=2#post37 (Source)]
'''Grim:'''
"I know that in the perfect romanticized world of canonical hypersensitivity, everything would always fit, would never change once established, and would be disconnected from all environmental factors save for fictional purity.
I also know that it isn't reality. Also, while you might not like some of those "outside influences" meddling in your fictional details, the reality is that WITHOUT an incredible effort from all sorts of different sides of the equation, including marketing, we wouldn't even have a franchise to argue about.
Also, you hate marketing? How are you enjoying Hunt the Truth?" [https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/db05ce78845f4120b062c50816008e5d/topics/about-that-fall-of-reach-animated-series-trailer/e114975f-ddcc-4109-bf72-e4d8efc29ec5/posts?page=2#post40 (Source)]
'''Grim:'''
"I mean, Mjolnir in many ways was CONSTANTLY in a state of development. Also, developmental does not necessarily mean "totally brand new idea that we have no idea if it will work or not." I spent over a decade working in the motorsport industry in various capacities. Whether we were running a Viper GTS-R, Zonda GR, BMW M3-GT, are a myriad of other platforms, there was always some sort of development bits and bobs being fitted and tested. Some for performance, some for safety, some for reliability, etc." [https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/db05ce78845f4120b062c50816008e5d/topics/about-that-fall-of-reach-animated-series-trailer/e114975f-ddcc-4109-bf72-e4d8efc29ec5/posts?page=3#post49 (Source)]
==Argus and Centurion==
While I am going to go through everything again once I get home in a week. To be 100% certain on what is what. I would like to bring to attention that like Sam's CQB-like helmet, the following helmets.
<gallery>
File:Mark IV Centurion.png|Centurion-like
File:Mark IV Argus.png|Argus-like
</gallery>
Could be early design models. And not actually part of the Argus and Centurion variant. I argue more for the Argus helmet as that is a lot more of a departure to its actual variant, but say both as we didnt get a name for any variants used in the animation directly bar the fact it was Mark IV. Saying they are Argus and Centurion is more speculation, when it was proven that due to Sam's CQB-like variant being a design model. Its possible for the said suits to also be design models. -[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 15:55, 5 October 2016 (EDT)
== Mark IV energy shields in Halo Wars ==
As far as I know, MJOLNIR didn't implement energy shielding until the Mark V. However, in Halo Wars, Red Team have shields, despite using Mark IV. Is there any canon explanation for this? They don't appear to use the Grenadier variant either.
[[User:Jebcubed|<span style="color: blue">'''Jeb'''<sup>'''3'''</sup></span>]][[User talk:Jebcubed|<span style="color: orange"><sub>'''Talk at me here'''</sub></span>]] 16:21, October 15, 2019 (EDT)
:This has always been a gameplay concession, it's a pretty old debate at this point. It's not worth mentioning on the page except in a production notes sense.[[User:BaconShelf|BaconShelf]] ([[User talk:BaconShelf|talk]]) 03:31, October 16, 2019 (EDT)
::Alright. Just didn't know if 343 ever addressed it. Thanks! [[User:Jebcubed|<span style="color: blue">'''Jeb'''<sup>'''3'''</sup></span>]][[User talk:Jebcubed|<span style="color: orange"><sub>'''Talk at me here'''</sub></span>]] 07:00, October 16, 2019 (EDT)
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