Editing Talk:UNSC Gorgon

==Jumping the Gun?==

Unless there's a second reference I missed, I don't think there is evidence enough to justify calling this ship a ''Gorgon''-class heavy destroyer. The text as I read it on ''Evolutions'', page 447 indicates Cole was the first to command a heavy-destroyer-class vessel armed with a MAC. All we can canonically take from this is it's a heavy destroyer and that the first of the heavy destroyers to be equipped with a MAC was the UNSC ''Gorgon''. I see nothing implying the ''Gorgon'' was the first heavy destroyer nor the first of its class. It could be that there were many heavy destroyers and that the ''Gorgon'' was the first to be brought into drydock and overhauled with a MAC and that vessel was assigned to Cole. I'm not saying the UNSC ''Gorgon'' cannot be a ''Gorgon''-class destroyer, only that the text of the novel is ambiguous and that perhaps it shouldn't be stated so definitively in this article. - [[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 22:50, 30 June 2013 (EDT)

:[[UNSC_Gorgon#cite_note-3|The article's note]] provides this: ''"Although the name of the ship's class is not mentioned, the UNSC Gorgon is stated to be the first of its class. Naval classifications take the name for the ship series after the name of the first ship, thus making ships built with the same design members of the Gorgon class."'' Chimes nicely with the Infinity-class.— <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  06:44, 2 July 2013 (EDT)

Yes, but the actual article content (despite the note) as well as the infobox to the right of the page is informing readers that the ship is of the ''Gorgon''-class. If anything, it should be a trivia note that it's not known if this is the implication, but that it may be.

The actual wording from the story is "the first heavy-destroyer-class vessel armed with a magnetic accelerator cannon (MAC), the UNSC ''Gorgon''." It's the first one ''armed'' with a MAC. That's very different from saying it's talking about a ''Gorgon''-class vessel. In this case, "class" is used like saying something is of the cruiser-class, light-frigate-class or the carrier-class. It's referring to the classification of the vessel type, not the specific ship name of the first of the line (which I agree the ''Infinity''-class implies the UNSC ''Infinity'' is the first, and that the UNSC ''Halcyon'' was the first ''Halcyon''-class cruiser. The UNSC ''Halcyon'' was also of the cruiser-class, but that's again how that usage of 'class' can change. What we need to recognize is what's being referred to in the Cole story. - [[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 07:00, 2 July 2013 (EDT)

:I'm slightly confused... From that page, the UNSC Gorgon is a heavy-destroyer-class vessel of ??-class, the first one of ??-class to be armed with a MAC. According to modern naval classification, the name for the ship series is based on the first ship. Ergo, UNSC Gorgon is no longer of ??-class, its classifcation has been "rebranded" as Gorgon-class heavy destroyer. So, what has jumped the gun? — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  07:24, 2 July 2013 (EDT)

Maybe see it this way: Assume the ''Gorgon'' is already an existing ship and happens to be a heavy destroyer. Before they outfitted the UNSC ''Gorgon'' with a MAC, all of the UNSC's heavy destroyer vessels did not have MACs. In this case, ''Gorgon'' was the first to be mounted with one.

In Halo (as with any actual navy) there's two separate meanings using the term 'class'. Example: The ''In Amber Clad'' and the ''Forward Unto Dawn'' are both light frigate-class vessels, as opposed to, say, a heavy frigate-class vessel, but the first ship is of the ''Stalwart''-class and the second ship is of the ''Charon''-class. These emphasize the two meanings of 'class'. 

What I'm saying is that the Cole story wording is not clear on which meaning is being implied. I'm only cautioning that where the meaning is unknown with certainty that it not be stated in the main text as certain, but that it just be relegated to a note. - [[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 08:05, 2 July 2013 (EDT)
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 The actual wording from the story is "the first heavy-destroyer-class vessel armed with a magnetic accelerator cannon (MAC), the UNSC ''Gorgon''." It's the first one ''armed'' with a MAC. That's very different from saying it's talking about a ''Gorgon''-class vessel. In this case, "class" is used like saying something is of the cruiser-class, light-frigate-class or the carrier-class. It's referring to the classification of the vessel type, not the specific ship name of the first of the line (which I agree the ''Infinity''-class implies the UNSC ''Infinity'' is the first, and that the UNSC ''Halcyon'' was the first ''Halcyon''-class cruiser. The UNSC ''Halcyon'' was also of the cruiser-class, but that's again how that usage of 'class' can change. What we need to recognize is what's being referred to in the Cole story. - [[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 07:00, 2 July 2013 (EDT)
-:I'm slightly confused... From that page, the UNSC Gorgon is a heavy-destroyer-class vessel of ??-class, the first one of ??-class to be armed with a MAC. According to modern naval classification, the name for the ship series is based on the first ship. Ergo, UNSC Gorgon is no longer of ??-class, its classification has been "rebranded" as Gorgon-class heavy destroyer. So, what has jumped the gun? — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  07:24, 2 July 2013 (EDT)
+:I'm slightly confused... From that page, the UNSC Gorgon is a heavy-destroyer-class vessel of ??-class, the first one of ??-class to be armed with a MAC. According to modern naval classification, the name for the ship series is based on the first ship. Ergo, UNSC Gorgon is no longer of ??-class, its classifcation has been "rebranded" as Gorgon-class heavy destroyer. So, what has jumped the gun? — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  07:24, 2 July 2013 (EDT)
 Maybe see it this way: Assume the ''Gorgon'' is already an existing ship and happens to be a heavy destroyer. Before they outfitted the UNSC ''Gorgon'' with a MAC, all of the UNSC's heavy destroyer vessels did not have MACs. In this case, ''Gorgon'' was the first to be mounted with one.
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 What I'm saying is that the Cole story wording is not clear on which meaning is being implied. I'm only cautioning that where the meaning is unknown with certainty that it not be stated in the main text as certain, but that it just be relegated to a note. - [[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 08:05, 2 July 2013 (EDT)
-:Honestly, I still don't see any issue (yet?). Let's create a scenario: UNSC Gorgon is, let's say for namesake, an Enterprise-class heavy-destroyer, the first of the Enterprise-class to be equipped with a MAC. Because of its favourable design, the navy decides to adopt UNSC Gorgon and make it its own class, thus creating UNSC Gorgon. Any Enterprise-class that follows this design is rebranded as a Gorgon-class heavy-destroyer while those without stays as Enterprise-class. This is what that paragraph in ''Evolutions'' seems to indicate to me (in addition to the information I've been informed about naval classification for ship series based on the first ship da da da...). Apologies for repeating myself. Really want to understand what's going on with this article. :/ — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  10:00, 3 July 2013 (EDT)
-::I agree with your reasoning. And 343i does adopt the stance that the first named ship of a class is that class name, so the first ''Halcyon''-class cruiser was UNSC ''Halcyon'', etc. I guess what I'm getting at is it's not clear in this case if the UNSC ''Gorgon'' is the first of its own class or if it's simply a ship of an existing class that's the first to be outfitted with a MAC, yet remains of its former class. Until that's clear, the article text is making a presumption, is it not? Just trying to keep things accurate and non-speculative. - [[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 11:25, 5 July 2013 (EDT)
-:::Just checked the page. From what I've (personally) understood, it simply states that the ''Gorgon'' was the first heavy-destroyer-class vessel armed with a MAC; the word "class" being merely related to "heavy-destroyer". It doesn't necessarily imply that it's a ''new'' class of heavy-destroyer. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 16:55, 5 July 2013 (EDT)
-::The issue now is just with the label "''Gorgon''-class heavy destroyer". What we can agree we know unambiguously is it's a heavy destroyer and that the first destroyer outfitted with a MAC is the UNSC ''Gorgon''. Using the title "''Gorgon''-class" is what's still uncertain. That's the part that's still speculation. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 17:09, 5 July 2013 (EDT)
-:::That it is. I have to admit I was somewhat at a loss as to your actual point until now - mainly because for some reason I had assumed that the title "''Gorgon''-class heavy destroyer" originated in the story. Apparently not. I believe it would be the best solution to simply rename the page to "UNSC heavy destroyer" and make the necessary adjustments based on the story's ambiguity; that is, remove the assumption that the ''Gorgon'' was the first ship of its class and simply state the fact that it was the first heavy destroyer to be equipped with a MAC. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 23:17, 5 July 2013 (EDT)