Editing Talk:SPARTAN-II program

{{Archived}}

==Class-II==
Although Halopedia has decided to remain largely ambiguous about the canonicity of the Class-II SPARTAN-IIs, I feel that we may have to look into the matter again.

#"Kelly had always been the fastest in their class."<ref group="C2">Halo: Evolutions - page 348</ref> This is something John-117 thinks. He doesn't know of the SPARTAN-III program, therefore suggesting "class II".
#Although Halsey's funding was largely redirected to S-III, evidence suggests that when Alpha company was destroyed in 2537, she received enough funding for a class-II. This is shown by Yasmine Zaman being kidnapped for a SPARTAN program at age 6 and dying at age 14 in 2545, during augmentation procedures.<ref group="C2">i love bees</ref><ref group="C2">Halo: Ghosts of Onyx</ref>
##Keep in mind that when Kurt-051 thinks that there will only be one class of SPARTAN-II, this is several years ''before'' their conscription.
#The "Personnel Intel reports" refer to Jorge-052 as a member of "the class of '25". If there was only one class of S-IIs to successfully be trained, why didn't they just call him a SPARTAN-II?<ref group="C2">[http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=personnel&cid=24524 Bungie.net Intel on Jorge-052]</ref>
#Although Bungie originally designated "i love bees" as non-canon, they changed their minds later. They then said that they decided to have a canon expanded universe, and directly referred to ILB as canon. Keep in mind that this is the ''same'' speech that confirmed the novels as canon.
##Furthermore, the "Personnel Intel" and "Palace Hotel" suggestions are directly from Bungie.

===calculation===
28 SPARTAN-IIs are said to be at Reach - three of whom are at Gamma station. Excluding the secret "Black team", there are 33 SPARTAN-IIs officially surviving the augmentation process and remaining S-IIs.

*From these 33, we remove "Sam", "Sheila"; "Solomon"; "Arthur"; "Cal" and "Randall" who are dead. That makes 27 at Reach.
*Then, we subtract Jorge and Kurt, who were kidnapped. That's 25.
*Maria retired. That's 24.
*Mike; Adriana and Jai of Gray team were not at Reach.
*Red team members "Douglas"; "Jerome" and "Alice" have been MIA since 2531. That makes 18 S-IIs ''officially'' available for Reach, and 15 officially ''on'' Reach - I don't know about "Keiichi"; "Daisy"; "Joseph" and "Ralph". Therefore; if Class-II exists, at least 13 SPARTAN-IIs must be class-II.

Please comment [[#discussion|here]].-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''' 15:02, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

===Sources===
<references group="C2"/>

===Discussion===

Just a side note, I don't think the B.net page with the information on the Reach characters is intended to be an excerpt from the CAA factbook. The factbook's in its own separate section and I doubt the colonial government would have files on individual Spartans like Jorge. As seen [http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?cid=24530 here], the information on the Reach "characters" page is likely intended to be from a military performance report, not the factbook which seems more like a civilian document. As for Class-II, the evidence seems solid. It's not 100% sure until they say it directly, but since ILB has been declared canon at least on some level, the existence of Class-II would make sense. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 15:04, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

:Sorry about that CAA thing - I just noticed when you pointed it out. Anyway, we ''still'' have a lot of people who say that it's non-canon. Just look at the class-II section in the archive. I just felt that I should point out instances where it appears to be a confirmation.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''' 15:07, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

::When meeting each other, the generic multiplayer Spartans in ''Halo Wars'' occasionally say, "Another 2525 graduate, huh?". Like with Jorge's performance report, why say that unless there's another class? The original S-IIs ''did'' believe more Spartans were on the way, which was why Mendez left, which shows that they at least ''thought'' a second class existed. As for the number of S-IIs at Reach: Joseph, Daisy, and Ralph were reinstated after being retrieved; later, Daisy and Ralph died in the Harvest Campaign. However, as noted in Ralph's article, he was discharged after later augmentations. Scratch two more from the ''Autumn'''s contingent, ostensibly giving us 13 available Spartans. As many have theorized, Maria was almost certainly the one who was wounded beyond recovery; however, whether this is the true story or a cover for an ONI experiment *coughSPARTAN-2.1cough* is as yet unkown. Here's a counter argument: if some of the Spartans in Red Team during the Fall of Reach were indeed replacements from Class II, why wouldn't the others make any note of it? Keep in mind, however, that the re-relase of ''TFoR'' should finally resolve the numbers discrepancy, but don't get your hopes up for anything on the class of 2536. One more thing: ''Nassau Station'' - Nicole's stage from ''DoA 4'' - was shown in the last issue of ''Uprising'', so Class II could, hypothetically, experience a similar fate. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|&quot;Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson]] 17:32, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

:::Perhaps. I just hope that the class of '45 and the extra SPARTANs be recognised.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''' 17:39, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


Hey, just wanted to contribute to this discussion, I have some replies to your 'Class II' blurb, Forerunner.  For your first point I would like to suggest that John-117 is not suggesting a Class II with his statement.  He is simply referencing that they were in a class together, noting that they were part of the same group.  For example, if a school opens in the fall of 2009 and you graduate as the smartest member of your class in the spring of 2010 and the school closes in the summer of 2010, you are still the smartest member of your class despite the fact that there have been no subsequent classes at all.  To describe themselves as a class puts the Spartan's in a group and differentiates them from the rest of their fellow service men and women in the UNSC.  To your second point, about Yasmine being from class II, do we know that for certain?  The inauguration of Beta Company of Spartan III's was in 2537, the same year she was abducted, and she died in 2545, which is the earliest known date of Beta Company SIII being active.(Source is the date in the letter from LTCR. Kurt Ambrose to SCPO Franklin Mendez) Beta company could have finished been augmented and then in the feild in 2545, which is 6 years after their inauguration, lining up with the training time of Alpha Company SIII. To your third point, when CNL. Holland refers to Jorge as a graduate of the class of '25 remember that he also commands SIII's as the rest of the unit.  Thus he would have knowledge of the Spartan III program. Perhaps to him a Spartan is a Spartan, regardless if they are SII or SIII and in order to distinguish them in his report, he distinguishes them from the year they 'graduated' from their class.  Hope that all makes sense,
Cheers,  [[User talk:Rimnek 015|Rimnek 015]] 05:31, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

I haven't read the whole discussion, but in case it helps, a while ago I summarized what I know about the Class Two issue [[User:Andrew Nagy/Class II|here]]. --[[User talk:Andrew Nagy|Andrew Nagy]] 23:08, 1 February 2011 (EST)

== 6 years of age source ==

Okay, sorry to bug anyone, but I was kind of wondering how do we know that all 75 spartans are 6, I mean, there must be some 5 and 7 year olds in the mix, so I was wondering what the 6 years of age source was, please reply, thank you. ([[User talk:Jamesgg521|Jamesgg521]] 01:28, August 17, 2010 (UTC))

:2511 seems to be used as the birthyear for all - it really should be "c. 2511". Fall of Reach refers to them as six in 2517, and they are referred to as all being 14 in 2525 just before augmentations (First Strike). This is likely just an average age - obviously some are older than others and at least one was bound to be 7 at the beginning. -- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 01:34, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
:It is stated in the Fall of Reach that all chosen SPARTAN-II's were taken from a very select group of age, and gene specific group of children, to fit Dr. Halsey's plan for them.  And they are all stated as being 6 years old in Chapter 3 of the Fall of Reach. [[User talk:VadersFist666|VadersFist666]] 01:36, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

::I recall that a couple were listed as being ''slightly'' younger or older. [[User:Darthkenobi0|Darthkenobi0]][[User talk:Darthkenobi0|(talk)]] 01:43, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

== Able to be infected? ==

Johnson was a Spartan-I, and his bio-augmentations rendered him immune to the flood, but if the Spartan-IIs recieved the same or better augmentations, why wasn't John-117 immune to the flood infection as well,as on page 323 of ''The Flood'' it states the infection form had already shoved the penetrator in when Cortan zapped it. Why were John's superiorly augmentated genes able to be mutated but not Johnson's? The differences and similarities between John and Johnson's augmented charictaristics would logically make John's neurological system to appear to have recieved "irreparrable damage" as well as Johnson's. --[[User talk:Turbogruntman117|Turbogruntman117]] 14:51, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

:His SPARTAN-I augmentations did not make him immune from the Flood; the so-called Flood-proof Boren Syndrome is simply a cover-up by ONI to hide off actual information about the SPARTAN-I. Every human is susceptible to being a Flood host, even SPARTANs. Why Johnson is not infected in Halo: Combat Evolved can be explained in Halo Graphic Novel; in the story, we can see that Johnson shrugged off the Infection Form, thus saved from transforming into a Flood form.- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 14:58, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
:
:So you are saying that everyone and everything else that did become flood infected did so because thay did'nt do enough 'shrugging'?I think the truth is in the boren syndrome, perhaps its life threatening, possibally terminal, a reason the infection forms passed him up but he would still be considered a threat, that made him a target for the combat forms.
:"they passed me up like I was undercooked spinach in turkey dinner"- Sgt Johnson, Halo First Strike. Realisticaly the infection forms would come at u like the face huggers from Aliens cept these came at u by the hundreds[[User talk:DARKSTORM99|DARKSTORM99]] 18:28, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

::[[Halo_Graphic_Novel_Pg122#Boren.27s_Syndrome_Hoax|Yes]]. This makes everything you know redundant and false.- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 18:31, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

== Number of Spartans in FOR/FS and the Rest of the Universe ==

Hello all. With the current buzz about Halo: Reach it got me thinking about the story of Reach that we know so far, and got me thinking about some discrepancies in the number of Spartans II’s present on Reach during Reach’s fall. I originally jumped on the ‘Number of Spartan II’s is messed up’ bandwagon when I considered a machinima depicting the Beta team of Spartans defending the generators. I wanted to make it as canon as possible and so wanted to make sure I got the number of Spartans down pat. Having recently read through the relevant sections of the books, I did some math and thought I could enlighten you as to my results.

So when I added up all of the Spartans on the list provided in the article that made it through augmentation, I got 36 Spartans total, not that far off the mark of what FOR and FS state, which is 33.

7 Spartans are KIA pre-FOR: Daisy-023, Sam-034, Solomon-069, Arthur-079, Cal-141, Ralph 303 and Sheila
1 Spartan is Ret/WIA pre-FOR: Maria-062
3 Spartans are MIA pre-FOR: Kurt-051, Jorge-052 and Randall

Therefore 11 Spartans are KIA/WIA/MIA before the Fall of Reach leaving 25 Spartans alive for Reach, Close to the FOR statement of 28, but off of the FS insinuation of 30

3 Spartans are on a mission too far to be recalled pre-FOR: Jai-006, Adriana-111 and Mike (Gray Team)
3 Spartans are possibly on board the Spirit of Fire pre-FOR: Douglas-042, Jerome-092 and Alice 130 (Halo Wars-Red Team)
4 Spartans are in an unknown location pre-FOR: Black One, Black Two, Black Three and Victor-101 (Black Team)

(This is where it starts to get hairy!)
Therefore;
22 Spartans are available to be on Reach if only Gray team is missing but HW-Red Team and Black Team are present.
19 Spartans are available to be on Reach if Gray Team and HW-Red Team are missing but Black Team is present.
18 Spartans are available to be on Reach if Gray Team and Black Team are missing but HW-Red Team is present.
15 Spartans are available to be on Reach if Gray team, HW-Red Team and Black Team are all missing.

Moving on to the Fall of Reach

3 Spartans Deploy to Gamma Station: Linda-058, John-117 and James (Blue Team)

Therefore Red team has;

19 Spartans if only Gray team is missing but HW-Red Team and Black Team are present.
16 Spartans if Gray Team and HW-Red Team are missing but Black Team is present.
15 Spartans if Gray Team and Black Team are missing but HW-Red Team is present.
12 if Gray team, HW-Red Team and Black Team are all missing.

4 Spartans are KIA during the drop to the surface: Malcolm-059 and 3 others

Therefore the number of Spartans that survive the drop are;
15 Spartans if only Gray team is missing but HW-Red Team and Black Team are present.
12 Spartans if Gray Team and HW-Red Team are missing but Black Team is present.
11 Spartans if Gray Team and Black Team are missing but HW-Red Team is present.
8 Spartans if Gray team, HW-Red Team and Black Team are all missing.

Red team is split up;

3 Spartans form Team Alpha: Joshua-029, Kelly-087 and Fred-104
3 Spartans form Team Gamma: Li-008, Anton-044 and Grace-093
6 Spartans form Team Delta: Vinh-030, Isaac-039, Will-043 and 3 others

Therefore Team Beta is composed of;
3 Spartans if only Gray team is missing but HW-Red Team and Black Team are present.
0 Spartans if Gray Team and HW-Red Team are missing but Black Team is present.
-1 Spartan if Gray Team and Black Team are missing but HW-Red Team is present.
-4 Spartans if Gray team, HW-Red Team and Black Team are all missing.

I think according to the information that we have available here; it is most likely that Black Team and HW-Red Team were present during the Fall of Reach.
However there is still room for Speculation;

If FOR is right and there are 25 Spartans not including Gray team, then there are 3 more Spartans that need to be accounted for/named. If this is the case then it would push the number of Spartans that survived Augmentation to 39. It would also mean that Beta Team would have 6 members.

If FS is right and there are 30 Spartans not including Gray team, then there would be 8 more Spartans that need to be accounted for/named. If this is the case then it would push the number of Spartans that survived Augmentation to 44. This would also mean that Beta Team would have 11 members.

I think of the two possible scenarios, the 25 Spartans mentioned in FOR is probably the most accurate. This also works if you take into account 30 deaths during Augmentation and 6 Disabled: Rene-005, Kirk-018, Soren-066, Cassandra-075 and Fhajad-084. This adds up to a total of 74 Spartans, leaving room for one more. I think also that it was more likely that more Spartans were crippled than were killed, so some of the Spartan’s in the ‘died during Augmentation’ category were actually misapplied and did not die but were crippled and fall into the disabled category.

Some questions I hope that would be answered are:

-What is the official number of Spartan II’s on Reach participating in Dr. Halsey’s Mission? Which Canon Source is correct, the canon compilation by fans, FOR or FS?

-Was Black Team present on Reach when it fell?

-Was the Halo-Wars Red Team on Reach when it fell?

-If Black Team/and or the HW-Red Team were not present, on Reach, who was to fill their spots?

-Are Black Team/and or HW-Red Team actually Canon?

-What is the total number of Spartan II’s? How many were crippled by the Augmentation? How many were killed by it? sdsHow Many ‘Graduated’?

Thats all for now, Cheers,
[[User talk:Rimnek 015|Rimnek 015]] 06:50, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


:I don't have any of the comics, but from memory reading the article I think Black Team was excluded from the official roster, declared "dead" during augmentation and reassigned and reequipped separately from the rest of the Spartan-II's. Both Black Team and the original Red Team are canon, as much as some people would like to ignore them, though some of the aesthetic additions are not - shields, for example. I doubt Red Team would have been on Reach - they were left drifting in space thousands of lightyears from human space, too far for a retrieval force to find them. As for the official "canon" number of Spartans in total, who survived augmentation, and survived until 2552 - the numbers are so contradictory that I find myself hard pressed to consider the original figures still canon. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 08:08, September 2, 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Just occured to me while reading, the list of S-IIs is missing [[Unnamed Spartan (Harvest)]] And Yes I know his existance is disputed, but he is canon. [[User talk:SomethingDifferent|SomethingDifferent]] 11:09, September 9, 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I haven't made a detailed comparison with your list, but in case it helps, I tried to make a similar list a while ago [[User:Andrew Nagy/List of Spartan-IIs|here]], somewhat hampered by not having gone through every story (in particular Blood Line and Reach). I don't remember why I had Black Team at Reach, though, since you'd think their knowledge of the Forerunners and Flood would've got through to Cortana and made some kind of difference in Halo 1, same as with the Halo Wars crew. --[[User talk:Andrew Nagy|Andrew Nagy]] 23:18, 1 February 2011 (EST)

== James' Designation ==

The latest Halo Waypoint video '''[http://halo.xbox.com/en-us/intel/featured/video/defiant-to-the-end/f2595044-7e26-4928-a24b-8e1a2db3ce45 Defiant to the End]''', which discusses the defiant maps and their relation to the fiction, gives James' SPARTAN tag as 005, however the tag already belongs to Rene. I was wondering how do we approach this. Do we switch it around and give James the tag and leave Rene's blank or should it be left as it? [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 15:07, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

I would say not to change it yet until this is figured out[[#@lof@n1234]]-Forgive My English 15:09, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

::Looking at it now, if it is in fact official, it means that the license plate egg in ODST is in fact, canon. Which would mean that Rene's tag is actually Rene-081. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 15:18, 18 March 2011 (EDT)
 
So looks like this a retcon what says shes 081?[[#@lof@n1234]]-Forgive My English 15:20, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

::The [[License Plate Eggs]] as found in Halo 3: ODST. the Halo Encyclopedia seemed to had retcon the license plates, however given the absolute blunder that book was it's possible that the tags in there are also an error. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 15:28, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

I agree[[#@lof@n1234]]-Forgive My English 15:30, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

:The video in question explicitly identifies James as James-''005'', which is consistent with the license plate Easter egg. The video should certainly take precedence over the ''Encyclopedia''. We just need to make a note about the discrepancy on James' and René's respective articles. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|&quot;Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson]] 16:18, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

::Wasnt Rene given that designation first?[[#@lof@n1234]]-Forgive My English 16:49, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

:::No. ''ODST'' - and thus the license plate Easter eggs, in which James' "-005" tag first appeared - was released before the ''Encyclopedia''. Regardless, the ''Waypoint'' video explicitly identifies James as James-''005''. Newer, explicit canon overrides older material from a sloppy reference work. It seems that 343i has canonized the Easter egg as James' official tag. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|&quot;Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson]] 17:30, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

::::Per Braidenvl, it appears that 343i has acknowledged that the error made in the ''Encyclopaedia'' and supported the H3:R Easter Egg. As such, the two articles should be renamed to reflect this.— <span style="font-size:120%; font-family:Palatino Linotype; font-style:italic;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 17:37, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

::I'd just like to point out that the tag detail wasn't sloppily made for the Encyclopedia - 343i was making the encyclopædia at the same time as ODST and would not have been aware of the easter egg.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 18:55, 18 March 2011 (EDT)
:::<span class="plainlinks">[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png [citation needed<nowiki>]</nowiki>]</span> — <span style="font-size:120%; font-family:Palatino Linotype; font-style:italic;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 19:01, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

::::So it would be alright to change the tags? Just want to be sure before I did anything. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 22:01, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

== Nicole and Class-II confirmed Canon ==

So as you may know, I got a message from Evil Otto saying that Nicole is canon, but her appearance in DoA4 is non canon. Also a Bungie.net user by the name of "Spartan 100" was able to get 343i to say the same thing. http://halo.xbox.com/forums/general/f/10/p/5486/48766.aspx#48766
I want to discuss how many potential Class-II there are.
Here is what I think:
150 Class-I Candidates
75 Conscripted

Now notice that even though 75 are conscripted, it is "random." You have 117, which is nowhere near #75.
Now I suggest, that Class-II just added onto the count.
So it started from:
151-458. That is if though Nicole was the last candidate on the list.
Not including Janisary, Nicole and Yasmine, there is a pool of 305 candidates (308 total)

Also it could be possible that Halsey never knew the existance of Class-II, just like she never knew of S-IIIs. 
Now this part is just pure theory but I believe that Class-II may have been funded by private corporations (like Robocop.) Private corps did develop MJOLNIR suits, so why not fund Class-II? [[user:EchostreamFanJosh|EchostreamFanJosh]]

:Note that Candland is only a UI artist and, previous users said, his words cannot be taken as actual fact since he has contradicted much in the past. Vociferous, who is part of the team in charge of maintaining canon, provided the following:
{{Article Quote|She is based on a "real" and properly defined Spartan, but the appearance in the DOA game, for obvious reasons, is not canonical. That Spartan COULD be featured elsewhere, but there are no current plans.}}
:This does support Candland's comment but also points out that she is ''based on a "real" and properly defined'' Spartan. Also note that he refers "that Spartan" instead of Nicole herself. This puts Nicole as being canon, in the sense that she is an alternate version of another Spartan, and not canon, in the sense that she does not exist in the Halo Universe. As such, to conclude, Nicole-458 is not canon in the Halo Universe.— <span style="font-size:120%; font-family:Palatino Linotype; font-style:italic;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 08:14, 27 April 2011 (EDT)

::I guess it's open for debate. If Vociferous says she is based on a real and properly defined Spartan, I think it's reasonable to conclude that "properly defined Spartan" is called Nicole-458; if this canon character that Nicole is based on was entirely different, there would be no reason for Voc to say she's based on a canon Spartan; he could've just outright dismissed everything about her as non-canon. Even though the events of DOA4 are obviously non-canon, and the canonicity of some of her character details like liking halo-halo and anime are debatable, I don't think we can dismiss the character herself being entirely non-canon anymore. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 08:28, 27 April 2011 (EDT)

:::Perhaps this would be more along the lines of Alternate Universe concept (ala [[wikipedia:The_One_(film)|The One]]), where Nicole-458 is the same individual in another universe. To put it simply, Mister Chief is Master Chief. That is what I understand from Vociferous' comment. Also, the only reason why I dismiss her being non-canon is simply Vociferous' use of ''"that Spartan"'' in his comment. Why "that Spartan"? Typing "the" is easier and faster than "that".
:::Hopefully my comments make some sense. :| — <span style="font-size:120%; font-family:Palatino Linotype; font-style:italic;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 08:41, 27 April 2011 (EDT)

::::To put it simply, I view it as how some of the characters in ''[[Odd One Out]]'' are canon, like John, Keyes and Cortana, but their appearance in the episode is obviously not. Nicole's canonicity is a little more elusive since she hasn't appeared previously in actual canon material unlike the characters in ''Odd One Out'', but I guess Vociferous' comment is up to interpretation. Maybe someone who has an account on the Waypoint forums could ask for further clarification. However, from the way I see it, I think what we ''can'' safely assume to be canon regarding Nicole are only the basic details, like her name, Spartan tag and possibly her birthday and such. Removing the basic things (there are very few details to begin with) would make her a different character altogether and there would be no point for Vociferous to claim she was based on a canon Spartan. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 08:51, 27 April 2011 (EDT)
:::::Totally forgotten about Odd One Out, which would be the best example for this discussion. :/
:::::But anyway, yes, those details are along the lines of his comment. :) — <span style="font-size:120%; font-family:Palatino Linotype; font-style:italic;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 09:01, 27 April 2011 (EDT)
I agree. Odd One Out featured several canon characters making a non-canon appearance. This is what sparked my interest in looking into this issue about Nicole. Of course we all know that 1337 is pure non-canon so nobody should even address the issue on him. Now because of this there is a huge damn "debate" on the existence of Class-II. Class-II I guess is now "more" canon. Of course you can come up with several theories on why Halsey didn't train Class-II. It could be possible that [[Agnes]] worked on Class-II. Or it could be possible that Class-II is funded by a private organization (future Wal-mart lol.) As far as Agnes goes, it's never stated whether she's working on S-IIIs or Class-II. But honestly I will have to go with Class-II. It seems Kurt is the Halsey of the S-IIIs and Mendez just stayed the same. [[user:EchostreamFanJosh|EchostreamFanJosh]]

== Final Count of S-IIs ==

Spartans on Reach

Jorge was apart of Noble Team on Reach.

John, Linda and James were above Reach.
James would die and so would Linda (but she was later revived)

In the First Strike reprint, Fred commanded 22 Spartans. 6 were wounded immediately and 4 died from jumping out of the Pelican. 
Malcom is one of the Spartans that died from the jump.

Here are all the Spartans that survived the jump

Alpha
Fred
Kelly 
Joshua

Beta
Beta Red Actual
Red-15
9 other Spartans

Gamma
Li
Anton
Grace

Delta
Vinh
Isaac
William
3 Unknown

Now a error is that Fred commanded 21 as stated in the First Strike reprint. But 4 died immediately. So that means that there were actually 27 Spartans under Fred's command.

Combining all these numbers, there were a total of 31 Spartan-IIs that participated in the Fall of Reach.


Various

Ralph and Maria were both discharged. It is believed that Maria is the Spartan Halsey mentioned who was too injured to return to active duty. Ralph would later rejoin the UNSC. He would die later at Harvest but wasn't a "Spartan" at the time.

Kurt would be reassigned to train the Spartan-IIIs but would die after Reach.

This brings the total number of Spartans in this category to 2.


MIA

Jai, Adrianna, and Mike are of Team Grey (Gray). They are possibly MIA.

4 Spartans (one named Victor) make up Team Black. They could be KIA but it is never shown or stated.

The Spirit of Fire's Spartans (Alice, Douglas, and Jerome) MIA. Though it should be noted, that they are members of Red Team.
In the Fall of Reach, there are 3 members of Red Team that were apart of Beta Red but where not under Fred's command. Could those three be these three? But due to it being speculation, it will not be counted.

Keichi was last seen on Harvest.

Randall is possibly truly MIA.

Joseph escaped from ONI after augmentations but was soon caught afterwords. His fate is uknown.

Combing these numbers from this category, there were a total of 13

KIA

Daisy, Ralph, and 1 unidentified Spartan died on Harvest. It could be possible Keichi may be the unidentified but he will not be counted as the individual.

Cal died during a assassination mission.

Samuel died early in the war.

Shiela died protecting Halsey.

Arthur and Solomon died trying to rescue Halsey.

2 Spartans commited suicide after seeing their flash clones.

Adding up the Spartans of this category, there were a total of 10 Spartans that died before the Fall of Reach.


TOTAL CLASS-I SPARTAN-IIs

Adding up the numbers from both categories, there must have been a total of 54 Class-I Spartan-IIs that survived the augmentations and were fit for combat. If I have miscounted or left out any information please let me know.

Now I did not count Team Omega as they could have been made up of Daisy, Keichi, John (who was seen on Harvest) and 2 other Spartans.

Now because of the rehab that some of the washouts may have recieved or healed, it would be possible that some of the unknown Spartans could have been some of the rehabilitated. This is most likely due to the fact that there is such a high number of Spartans now. Though it could be possible Beta Red was Class-II S-IIs as they are canon.[[user:EchostreamFanJosh|EchostreamFanJosh]]

:No. Beta Red was a team made by Fred by putting everyone with a team position between 4 and 20 into another unit - they're no simply some other unit. While they could be Class-II, I'd advise you follow my method of counting the dead before Reach and anyone else who wasn't there - you get the number of class-Is.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 03:07, 11 May 2011 (EDT)

::As I've mentioned [[Talk:Fhajad-084|here]] and [[Talk:Team Black|here]], Halsey had the washouts' bodies placed in cryo in the hope that they could be revived later. Linda was resuscitated nearly a month after her gruesome death on ''Gamma Station'', so it isn't much of a stretch to think that ONI could bring them back from the dead.

::It is possible that those who were killed later received similar treatment. However, this certainly wouldn't help the two escapees who committed suicide - they used their sidearms, so I'd imagine that they brained themselves - Samuel or Solomon, who were both vaporized, or Arthur, who was übersplattered. Halsey ''saw'' Sheila die, and Miridem was likely overrun before her body could be recovered. These deaths are confirmed in the August 27, 2552 entry of Halsey's journal: ''"But so many were absent - Sam, Kurt, Arthur, Sheila, Solomon..."'' Daisy, Cal, and - if he were brought back into the program - Ralph could have been resuscitated, as they all suffered comparatively "soft" deaths. For the sake of this analysis, however, I will assume that they were not revived.

::Halsey also hoped that those crippled by the procedures could rehabilitated and enter active service, particularly Kirk and René, who apparently stood a better chance than the rest. We know that this did not happen to Fhajad, Cassandra, or Soren, but it is possible that some of the others were "repaired".

::If we eliminate Fhajad, Cassandra, and Soren, nine crippled candidates could have been rehabilitated. Eliminating Black team per my reasoning here [[Talk:Team Black|here]], twenty-six dead washouts would be available for resuscitation.

::Now, let's eliminate the Spartans who were not part of Red Team during the Fall of Reach, assuming that none of those who were killed after the augmentations were resuscitated: the two suicides, Samuel, Ralph, Daisy, the original Red Team, Kurt, Randall, Sheila, Solomon, Arthur, Cal, Maria, Gray Team, Black Team, Jorge, John, Linda, and James. That's twenty-six Spartans who were ''not'' part of Fred's unit. The Adjunct section in the 2010 version of ''First Strike'' claims that there were twenty-two Spartans on Red Team; this number is reiterated in ''Defiant to the End''. Together, the Adjunct and the video provide the most recent official count of the Spartans on Red Team. Thus, there were twenty-two Spartans who were in Red Team and twenty-six who weren't, living or dead. This leads to a total of forty-eight separate Spartans.

::Subtraction shows that only seven members of Red Team were graduates; the other fifteen would have been either rehabilitated cripples or resuscitated washouts. They certainly weren't from a later class, as the original members would have noticed immediately and it would have been mentioned in ''First Strike''. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 10:44, 11 May 2011 (EDT)

:::Absencd of evidence is not evidence of absence.  At least parts of Class-II were ready for service in 2545 - the others aren't going to remain surprised seven years later.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 12:22, 11 May 2011 (EDT)

Totally off topic, but I just read your post, so listen to that again, "the others aren't going to remain surprised '''seven''' years later."  OMG uberslap! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  16:49, 11 May 2011 (EDT)!

==Jorge KIA?==
Should Jorge really be listed as "confirmed KIA"? There's no way that they could confirm him as Killed In Action unless they ''see'' the body. It's entirely possible that the hangar bay he was in sectioned itself off when the ship was slip-spaced apart (or even that the Corvette survived entirely,) and Jorge is alive in an unknown location in part of a ship. [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 04:40, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
:Nope. The ''Essential Visual Guide'' confirms that Jorge definitely died, and both the ''Long Night of Solace'' and ''Ardent Prayer'' were "completely obliterated". That should bring an end to this needless debate. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 05:00, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
::I wouldn't call it a "needless" debate, as I'm sure the "Essential Visual Guide" isn't 100% accurate. Regardless, I think that his status should be changed to "Assumed KIA," as there is no body to confirm he was KIA. [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 06:54, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
:::The visual guide, like any source, is likely not 100% accurate, but it is treated as factual unless there's a superior source that contradicts it. What reason do you have to assume that the confirmation of Jorge's death is ''not'' accurate? So far, every assertion that Jorge might be alive has been purely speculative with no facts to back it up. Assuming he's alive is a massive stretch even by the game's own logic - Kat states 700 people died in the accident whose circumstances the slipspace bomb was recreating. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 07:09, 5 September 2011 (EDT)

:::The ''Long Night of Solace'' fulfilled that very role; both were torn apart by the slipspace opening. Is it not possible that explosive compression and the destabilisation of the vessel's equipment (the drive is near the fusion core, remember) as the cause of deaths on both the normal and slipspace-dwelling halves? I still feel that a hole in slipspace wouldn't incinerate a vessel into fragments- while high-energy conditions could have effected the parts of the ship pulled into slipspace, the ''Ardent Prayer'' was totally contained and, based on our understanding of the drive, survived intact. We know of other drive failures that have plagued UNSC ships; they appear to have resulted in maintenance crews being thrown, unprotected, into slipspace. Personally, I believe that Jorge was killed not upon the drive's activation, but after he ended up right in front of a Covenant fleet. Perhaps we could look into the events to finally come to a conclusion.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 14:06, 5 September 2011 (EDT)  

Actually, I think his status should be changed to MIA ^.^ Vegerot goes RAWR! [[File:Icon-Vegito2.gif]] [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  11:20, 5 September 2011 (EDT)!!!!!!!!


Holy ^%*$!!!  I spent 10 minuets typing out a reply to this, but then the website stopped functioning!  *sigh* just to sum up what I said.  Even if he did survive, there would be a hundred other factors that would kill him.  Vegerot goes RAWR! [[File:Icon-Vegito2.gif]] [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  16:47, 5 September 2011 (EDT)!!!!!

:"Even if he did survive, there would be a hundred other factors that would kill him." How do you figure? More specifically, what hundred factors? It's likely that if the Corvette survived, he could easily take a Seraph or Banshee to escape the rubble. Most of the crew of the ''Ardent Prayer'' were killed in the initial assault. Plus, he's a ''Spartan.'' If the Corvette was in-tact it would still have atmosphere, his suit is sealed, and a ship that he could hijack would also have air. The UNSC would pick up his IFF, and would very likely hold fire to wait and see whatever the ship he commandeered did, and when he didn't attack they would very likely allow him to land. 

:I'm really not seeing the factors that would kill him if he has survived. Regardless there is no confirmation of his death (no body,) and so it should be listed as MIA. [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 18:43, 5 September 2011 (EDT)

== Unknown SPARTAN II ==

I'm reading first strike and i found a spartan "Red-21" and i have no idea who they are, ive looked through the fallen spartans at reach and none have "Red-21" assigned to them. [[User talk:SPARTAN-225|SPARTAN-225]] 00:35, 8 June 2011 (EDT)

:Because named SPARTANs only appear as main characters or deaths. We know none of the Red team S-IIs who were on Reach save for seven or eight.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 08:48, 8 June 2011 (EDT)

:Should i make a page for him? cause i'm guessing he could have been part of one of the 11 spartans in team beta. [[User talk:SPARTAN-225|SPARTAN-225]] 16:23, 9 June 2011 (EDT)

::The page that first mentions Beta tells us who is in it, tag-wise. If it starts with R-21, that would suggest that this person is the team leader and therefore Beta-Red-Actual.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 06:38, 9 June 2011 (EDT)
@@ Line 19: / Line 19: @@
 *Mike; Adriana and Jai of Gray team were not at Reach.
 *Red team members "Douglas"; "Jerome" and "Alice" have been MIA since 2531. That makes 18 S-IIs ''officially'' available for Reach, and 15 officially ''on'' Reach - I don't know about "Keiichi"; "Daisy"; "Joseph" and "Ralph". Therefore; if Class-II exists, at least 13 SPARTAN-IIs must be class-II.
-Also apparently 2 killed themselves around 2525
 Please comment [[#discussion|here]].-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''' 15:02, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
-==Numbers==
-"Only 33 survived the procedures without physiological deformities, of whom two would commit suicide in the following weeks upon encountering their flash clones"
-"By August 27, 2552, 25 of the 28 remaining Spartan-IIs assigned to NAVSPECWEAP,[17][18][19][20][21] except Gray Team, had been recalled to Reach, some from combat,[17] to receive new orders for Operation: RED FLAG, "
-These two quotes from the article seem to contradict, because surely the 33 includes Red Team and Randall, whereas surely the 28 includes neither Red Team nor Randall, meaning that the "28" should be at most 27?
 ===Sources===
@@ Line 148: / Line 142: @@
-:I don't have any of the comics, but from memory reading the article I think Black Team was excluded from the official roster, declared "dead" during augmentation and reassigned and reequipped separately from the rest of the Spartan-II's. Both Black Team and the original Red Team are canon, as much as some people would like to ignore them, though some of the aesthetic additions are not - shields, for example. I doubt Red Team would have been on Reach - they were left drifting in space thousands of lightyears from human space, too far for a retrieval force to find them. As for the official "canon" number of Spartans in total, who survived augmentation, and survived until 2552 - the numbers are so contradictory that I find myself hard pressed to consider the original figures still canon. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 08:08, September 2, 2010 (UTC)<br />
+:I don't have any of the comics, but from memory reading the article I think Black Team was excluded from the official roster, declared "dead" during augmentation and reassigned and reequipped separately from the rest of the Spartan-II's. Both Black Team and the original Red Team are canon, as much as some people would like to ignore them, though some of the aesthetic additions are not - shields, for example. I doubt Red Team would have been on Reach - they were left drifting in space thousands of lightyears from human space, too far for a retrieval force to find them. As for the official "canon" number of Spartans in total, who survived augmentation, and survived until 2552 - the numbers are so contradictory that I find myself hard pressed to consider the original figures still canon. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 08:08, September 2, 2010 (UTC)<br />
 <br />
-:Just occured to me while reading, the list of S-IIs is missing [[Unidentified Spartan-II|Unnamed Spartan (Harvest)]] And Yes I know his existance is disputed, but he is canon. [[User talk:SomethingDifferent|SomethingDifferent]] 11:09, September 9, 2010 (UTC)<br />
+:Just occured to me while reading, the list of S-IIs is missing [[Unnamed Spartan (Harvest)]] And Yes I know his existance is disputed, but he is canon. [[User talk:SomethingDifferent|SomethingDifferent]] 11:09, September 9, 2010 (UTC)<br />
 <br />
 :I haven't made a detailed comparison with your list, but in case it helps, I tried to make a similar list a while ago [[User:Andrew Nagy/List of Spartan-IIs|here]], somewhat hampered by not having gone through every story (in particular Blood Line and Reach). I don't remember why I had Black Team at Reach, though, since you'd think their knowledge of the Forerunners and Flood would've got through to Cortana and made some kind of difference in Halo 1, same as with the Halo Wars crew. --[[User talk:Andrew Nagy|Andrew Nagy]] 23:18, 1 February 2011 (EST)
@@ Line 199: / Line 193: @@
 :Note that Candland is only a UI artist and, previous users said, his words cannot be taken as actual fact since he has contradicted much in the past. Vociferous, who is part of the team in charge of maintaining canon, provided the following:
-{{Article quote|She is based on a "real" and properly defined Spartan, but the appearance in the DOA game, for obvious reasons, is not canonical. That Spartan COULD be featured elsewhere, but there are no current plans.}}
+{{Article Quote|She is based on a "real" and properly defined Spartan, but the appearance in the DOA game, for obvious reasons, is not canonical. That Spartan COULD be featured elsewhere, but there are no current plans.}}
 :This does support Candland's comment but also points out that she is ''based on a "real" and properly defined'' Spartan. Also note that he refers "that Spartan" instead of Nicole herself. This puts Nicole as being canon, in the sense that she is an alternate version of another Spartan, and not canon, in the sense that she does not exist in the Halo Universe. As such, to conclude, Nicole-458 is not canon in the Halo Universe.— <span style="font-size:120%; font-family:Palatino Linotype; font-style:italic;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 08:14, 27 April 2011 (EDT)
@@ Line 320: / Line 314: @@
 Totally off topic, but I just read your post, so listen to that again, "the others aren't going to remain surprised '''seven''' years later."  OMG uberslap! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  16:49, 11 May 2011 (EDT)!
-::Also keep in mind that 3 of the 4 members of Black Team are still unidentified, and could very well be rehabilitated Spartans, like Kirk or Rene. They could even have been Spartans like Malcolm, that died on Reach. Also, more Spartans of Red Team could have been Graduates, as Spartans like Cal, Solomon or Arthur could have been resuscicated Spartans.--[[User talk:Thijsbos|Thijsbos]] 04:31, 17 October 2011 (EDT)
 ==Jorge KIA?==
@@ Line 327: / Line 320: @@
 ::I wouldn't call it a "needless" debate, as I'm sure the "Essential Visual Guide" isn't 100% accurate. Regardless, I think that his status should be changed to "Assumed KIA," as there is no body to confirm he was KIA. [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 06:54, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
 :::The visual guide, like any source, is likely not 100% accurate, but it is treated as factual unless there's a superior source that contradicts it. What reason do you have to assume that the confirmation of Jorge's death is ''not'' accurate? So far, every assertion that Jorge might be alive has been purely speculative with no facts to back it up. Assuming he's alive is a massive stretch even by the game's own logic - Kat states 700 people died in the accident whose circumstances the slipspace bomb was recreating. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 07:09, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
 :::The ''Long Night of Solace'' fulfilled that very role; both were torn apart by the slipspace opening. Is it not possible that explosive compression and the destabilisation of the vessel's equipment (the drive is near the fusion core, remember) as the cause of deaths on both the normal and slipspace-dwelling halves? I still feel that a hole in slipspace wouldn't incinerate a vessel into fragments- while high-energy conditions could have effected the parts of the ship pulled into slipspace, the ''Ardent Prayer'' was totally contained and, based on our understanding of the drive, survived intact. We know of other drive failures that have plagued UNSC ships; they appear to have resulted in maintenance crews being thrown, unprotected, into slipspace. Personally, I believe that Jorge was killed not upon the drive's activation, but after he ended up right in front of a Covenant fleet. Perhaps we could look into the events to finally come to a conclusion.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 14:06, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
-Actually, I think his status should be changed to MIA ^.^ Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  11:20, 5 September 2011 (EDT)!!!!!!!!
+Actually, I think his status should be changed to MIA ^.^ Vegerot goes RAWR! [[File:Icon-Vegito2.gif]] [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  11:20, 5 September 2011 (EDT)!!!!!!!!
-Holy ^%*$!!!  I spent 10 minuets typing out a reply to this, but then the website stopped functioning!  *sigh* just to sum up what I said.  Even if he did survive, there would be a hundred other factors that would kill him.  Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  16:47, 5 September 2011 (EDT)!!!!!
+Holy ^%*$!!!  I spent 10 minuets typing out a reply to this, but then the website stopped functioning!  *sigh* just to sum up what I said.  Even if he did survive, there would be a hundred other factors that would kill him.  Vegerot goes RAWR! [[File:Icon-Vegito2.gif]] [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  16:47, 5 September 2011 (EDT)!!!!!
 :"Even if he did survive, there would be a hundred other factors that would kill him." How do you figure? More specifically, what hundred factors? It's likely that if the Corvette survived, he could easily take a Seraph or Banshee to escape the rubble. Most of the crew of the ''Ardent Prayer'' were killed in the initial assault. Plus, he's a ''Spartan.'' If the Corvette was in-tact it would still have atmosphere, his suit is sealed, and a ship that he could hijack would also have air. The UNSC would pick up his IFF, and would very likely hold fire to wait and see whatever the ship he commandeered did, and when he didn't attack they would very likely allow him to land.
 :I'm really not seeing the factors that would kill him if he has survived. Regardless there is no confirmation of his death (no body,) and so it should be listed as MIA. [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 18:43, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
-st of all, he should be listed as MIA anyway.  Second.  I was not aware of the fact that the Corvette would have survived.  If it did then what was the point, besides for only temporarily removing it?  Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  18:54, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
-:I'm only speculating that the Corvette survived, but I feel that it's well founded. The plan was always to use the Corvette as a means to safely get the slipspace drive close to the ''Long Night of Solace.'' Why would it gun one of it's own ships down? Then the drive would be activated, and in such a close proximity to the slipspace blast, it would destroy the Supercarrier by transporting a large section of it off. There was no actual explosion. The ''Ardent Prayer'' was in the center of this jump, and for all intents and purposes the ship was intact. I only assume that as it was not in the "fringe" of the slipspace field, it was transported to the unknown location, with the abducted sections of the ''Long Night of Solace.'' [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 19:30, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
-Remember what Kat said at the beginning of the operation? Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  19:47, 5 September 2011 (EDT)!!
-:Yes, I remember exactly what she said. That's what happened to the ''Long Night of Solace,'' the ship was sectioned off by the slipspace field. The way I imagine it is as the New Mombasa Slipspace Incident. The ''In Amber Clad'' was able to "piggyback" off the slipspace field emitted from the ''Solemn Penance ''. Buildings and vehicles caught in the field were also transported. All of the objects were brought to Installation 05 unharmed, minus buildings that would have been partially enveloped in the field. The way I see it, the ''Ardent Prayer'' was small enough that it was completely contained in the slipspace field, and was transported as is. [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 20:31, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
-::Remember that the ''Solemn Penance'''s slipspace drive was properly mounted to a ship that was maintaining all the systems required to generate a stable slipspace field, while the drive on the ''Ardent Prayer'' was mounted nowhere. There was no quantum field or the millions of calculations necessary to maintain the field. Given the foreign physics of slipspace, it's entirely likely that the drive effectively functioned as a "bomb", shearing all matter around it into pieces.
-::I once again defer to the ''Visual Guide'', which not only makes it very clear that Jorge was killed, but also describes the activation of the drive as "detonation" and confirms that the ''Ardent Prayer'' and ''Long Night of Solace'' were "completely obliterated". I don't think this should leave much room for interpretation. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 03:29, 6 September 2011 (EDT)
-:::Yes, and that proper mounting allowed the ''Solemn Penance'' to make a jump intact. The same cannot be said for the surrounding architecture of New Mombasa. While there was an "explosion" it was one that simply took objects from the slipspace field and transported them elsewhere. When we see the ''Ardent Prayer'' "explode," we see a large slipspace field being emitted, and a section of the ''Long Night of Solace'' missing where the field had been. All matter inside the field is gone. Had the FTL drive operated like a "bomb," there would have been debris scattered everywhere, and the sections of the ''Long Night of Solace'' left in space would have been vaporized, rather than being left in place, sans the effected sections. The absolute ''fact'' that the fate of the ''Ardent Prayer'' and all contained objects, individuals, and technology inside the slipspace field is unknown neither confirms nor denies total destruction or partial damage. The alleged death of Jorge is also therefore unconfirmed, and therefore he cannot rightly be listed as confirmed KIA. At best, he can be ''assumed'' KIA.
-:::You defer to the ''Visual Guide,'' yet again I mention that it is a supplementary guide, and is more than susceptible to fallacy. Having the event placed in heavy speculation - as is happening here - would raise more questions than answers, and may affect the sales of the book. However the nature of the event leaves more than enough room for healthy speculation, and leaves room for 343i to go back and label it as "UNSC/ONI speculation," and reveal the actual fate of the ''Ardent Prayer'' and Jorge, should they decide to do so and regardless of any contradiction to the "pre-established" notion that both were destroyed in the slipspace jump. I defer - as example of this - to the manual and likely the walkthrough guide to Halo: Combat Evolved. John-117 was stated as being the "last of his kind," the last Spartan in the UNSC. We quickly learned that this was not the case, and the canon has changed drastically to establish the contrary. [[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 13:43, 6 September 2011 (EDT)
-::::Healthy speculation is always welcomed in Halopedia as long as they are kept in the talk pages <sup>(though this is not always the case...)</sup>. However, it should be noted that if an official source has indeed provide an information about a subject, we should publish that information as it is without further elaboration unless it requires some detailed explanation. If there is a contradiction between sources, then the more authoritative sources shall prevail over other sources. As it is right now, there is no official sources that states that Jorge survived the detonation, thus it is established that there is no contradiction/discrepancy ''for now'', hence the information provided by the ''Visual Guide'' shall stay in the article as a fact. As Jugus said, ''"I don't think this should leave much room for interpretation."'' The statement regarding John as the last Spartan provided by HCE manual has been trumped by newer sources several times, hence would be considered as a retcon and holds nothing to this discussion. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 14:57, 6 September 2011 (EDT)
-Jugas said: "''While there was an "'''explosion'''" it was one that simply took objects from the slipspace field and transported them elsewhere.''"  Just a slight correction, technically it was an implosion, not an explosion.  Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  19:22, 6 September 2011 (EDT)
-True, that some things like this have content that are not canon, but that's only if something on a higher level contradicts that.  There is nothing that's on a higher level which explicitly states that Jorge survived, so he didn't.  Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  19:51, 6 September 2011 (EDT)!!!
-Disregarding Subtank's edit, I believe you understood my point now.  Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  22:55, 6 September 2011 (EDT)!
-:Until there is a body for the UNSC to identify as Jorge, it should read that he is MIA, and assumed KIA during Operation Uppercut. No body means that his status as KIA cannot possibly be ''confirmed.''--[[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 22:17, 7 May 2012 (EDT)
-::Of course it can't be confirmed, but that doesn't get rid of the fact that we have various sources stating he '''''is''''' KIA. Making the article to read he is MIA and assumed KIA contradicts previously established canon. The article will not be changed to read that way.-- '''''[[User:Spartacus|<span style="color: olivedrab; font-family: Bradley Hand ITC; font-size: 12pt;">'''Col. Spartacus'''</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Spartacus|<font color="Black">'''Talk Page'''</font>]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/Spartacus|<font color="Black">Contributions</font>]]''</sub> 22:47, 7 May 2012 (EDT)
-:::Not really, as all of those "confirmed KIA's" operate off the assumption that he is KIA. Imagine if there had been no Epilogue cutscene to Halo 3. Up until the release of Halo 4, John-117 would have then been listed as KIA, especially since we see his "memorial." Thus far the only source stating that Jorge is KIA is the Essentials Guide, yes? This site has a list of several mistakes that the Essentials Guide has made, not to mention that it is basically the "Halo Encyclopedia v2." Even with the Bungie commentary, their statements on Jorge's status are very ambiguous - indicating that they didn't even have a plot designed for him. Going off that alone, his fate is very ambiguous, having neither death nor survival planned out. Also, I've been exploring several canon parallels that lend favor to his survival, of which I can outline here.--[[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 22:54, 7 May 2012 (EDT)
-:::To add to this, I just don't see why we can list some Spartans that disappear in actually violent explosions as assumed KIA, yet we can't do this with Jorge just because a supplementary guide says he's dead.--[[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 22:59, 7 May 2012 (EDT)
-::::Yes, we can. The Guide is an official canon document supported by 343 Industries. What they say is canon goes, unless it contradicts previously established canon. Does Jorge's status contradict previously established canon? Nope, no source evr stated anything differently. The mistakes in the Guide are listed on it's page here. Do you see Jorge's status as KIA on the list of mistakes? Nope, since no one has stated that Jorge's status in it is a mistake, we must take it as such and accept it as canon. You're ignoring canon.-- '''''[[User:Spartacus|<span style="color: olivedrab; font-family: Bradley Hand ITC; font-size: 12pt;">'''Col. Spartacus'''</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Spartacus|<font color="Black">'''Talk Page'''</font>]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/Spartacus|<font color="Black">Contributions</font>]]''</sub> 23:07, 7 May 2012 (EDT)
-:::::Ignoring canon by recognizing a possibility for survival? The increasing hostility to the theory of that possibility confuses the hell out of me. The page and guide can say what they want, but until there is a body or a far more official statement of his status, I will pursue the theory. Keep in mind that technically ''Glasslands'' is canon. So are Spartans able to punch elderly women without completely liquifying their skulls, now? I applaud and appreciate that nothing can be put on this site without the most strenuous canonical filters, but in instances like this I think assumption takes too great a hold.--[[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 23:11, 7 May 2012 (EDT)
-::::::Excuse me, but how the hell does ''Glasslands'' have anything to do with this? As Subtank said above: ''It should be noted that if an official source has indeed provide an information about a subject, we should publish that information as it is without further elaboration unless it requires some detailed explanation. If there is a contradiction between sources, then the more authoritative sources shall prevail over other sources. As it is right now, there is no official sources that states that Jorge survived the detonation, thus it is established that there is no contradiction/discrepancy ''for now'', hence the information provided by the ''Visual Guide'' shall stay in the article as a fact. As Jugus said, ''"I don't think this should leave much room for interpretation."''-- '''''[[User:Spartacus|<span style="color: olivedrab; font-family: Bradley Hand ITC; font-size: 12pt;">'''Col. Spartacus'''</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Spartacus|<font color="Black">'''Talk Page'''</font>]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/Spartacus|<font color="Black">Contributions</font>]]''</sub> 23:19, 7 May 2012 (EDT)
-:It's moderately relevant because ''Glasslands'' is a source of canon. Yet that source of canon seriously downplays the enhanced strength of Spartans. So is that canon, now? The Essential Guide says that Jorge is dead, but does it outline how? Was the ''Ardent Prayer'' destroyed? Was he teleported into a sun? There is no explanation, therefore though it's "canon," it's basically an assumption. For instance, take Isaac-039. He and Vinh-030 disappeared on Reach in an explosion, never to be seen again. Is there any canon founding that they might be alive? Or that they might be dead? It's a complete unknown, likely death, but they're listed as "Assumed KIA." So where's the line?--[[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 23:27, 7 May 2012 (EDT)
-::Regarding "So are Spartans able to punch elderly women without completely liquifying their skulls, now?" Well, compared to SPARTAN-IIs, SPARTAN-IIIs only received chemical enhancements and not surgical. Their physical strength, of which has not been displayed or described, ''might'' not reach to the level of a SPARTAN-II. Another explanation ''could'' be that she held back most of her strength. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  07:06, 8 May 2012 (EDT)
-:::Chemical Enhancements that did near the same thing as the Spartan II project. Specifically, drug 88005-MX77 increased their muscle density, allowing them greater strength as the Spartan II's, and drug 8942-LQ99 hardened their bones to make them virtually "unbreakable." These drugs mimic and achieve the same end as the Carbide Ceramic Ossification, Catalytic Thyroid Implant and Muscular Enhancement Injections of the Spartan II project. As for the explanation that she "held back," this is completely countered by the description that the punch was so hard it shook the Spartan's arm up to her elbow.--[[User talk:Ocean Soul|Ocean Soul]] 18:31, 8 May 2012 (EDT)
-::::Guess Halsey is really hard-headed... :P — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  18:40, 8 May 2012 (EDT)
 == Unknown SPARTAN II ==
@@ Line 384: / Line 341: @@
 ::The page that first mentions Beta tells us who is in it, tag-wise. If it starts with R-21, that would suggest that this person is the team leader and therefore Beta-Red-Actual.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 06:38, 9 June 2011 (EDT)
-== Can't we all just be friends? ==
-Discuss this ridiculous edit war here.  Maybe if we can form consensus on this, Sub will unprotect the page, I have changes I want to make. Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  20:48, 22 January 2012 (EST)!
-The Spartan II listed as Kelly in the gallery for Ghosts of Onyx is actually Kurt S052, and proven within the source. He has chosen to don the armor of the Spartan III's which he held command over.
-== All S-IIs should have Fall of Reach appearances ==
-Since all the S-IIs (Class-I) were of the 75 children abducted, it should be then that they have a indirect mention in The Fall of Reach. For example, Osman was one of 14 (or 12?) washouts. It should be then that she has a indirect mention in the Fall of Reach since she was one of the washouts. [[User talk:ADinoSupremacist|ADinoSupremacist]]
-:No, they shouldn't. Check your talk page and see this.-- ''<span style="color:Aqua; font-weight:bold; font-family:Arial">AP</span>[[User:Spartacus|<span style="color:Aqua; font-weight:bold; font-family:Arial">RIL</span>]][[User talk:Spartacus|<font color="Cyan">'''FO'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Spartacus|<font color="Cyan">O</font>]][[Special:Emailuser/Spartacus|<font color="Cyan">'''LS'''</font>]]'' 15:52, 1 April 2012 (EDT)
-Perhaps we should change the "indirect mention" tag to read "alluded to" or something like that instead. Because stuff like this happens again, it should be made more clear that "indirect mention" means more than just "we're guessing they were around here at this time", rather an actual reference. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 16:02, 1 April 2012 (EDT)
-:I agree. An appearance, however indirect, should constitute more than just a mention of a given group of people or objects. For example, in ''Glasslands'', when Dr. Halsey mentions meeting a team of Spartans previously unknown to her on Reach, it's an clearly allusion to NOBLE Team. Despite this, it doesn't really qualify as an appearance of every individual member of the team, as they aren't mentioned by name or described in any way. The same is true to the SPARTAN-IIs: ''The Fall of Reach'' mentions them as a group several times, but it's ultimately pointless to list this as an appearance of every one of them, especially given how most of them hadn't even been thought up at the time the book was written. Similarly, we're not listing [[Antonio Silva]] or most of the characters unique to ''The Flood'' as appearing in ''Halo: Combat Evolved'', even though they were on the ''Pillar of Autumn'' and Installation 04 at the time. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 00:46, 2 April 2012 (EDT)
-== All from Outer Colonies? ==
-A number of sources say that every SII was taken from families in the Outer Colonies. Jorge however is from Reach, an Inner Colony. Is he the exception to the this rule or am I missing something?--[[User talk:Soul reaper|Soul reaper]] 05:08, 11 June 2012 (EDT)
-== Capitalization of "Program" ==
-I don't think the "program" part has ever been capitalized in the novels. It's consistently rendered as the "SPARTAN-II program"; same with the S-IIIs. Think this is just another leftover of our old habit of capitalizing everything. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 01:48, 27 January 2014 (EST)
-:I agree. The capitalization doesn't come to mind as something that was ever officially done. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 02:07, 27 January 2014 (EST)
-::''Mortal Dictata'' brought the same thought to my mind. Now I wonder just how many of our article titles are unnecessarily capitalized. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our vengeance is at hand.'''''</span>]]  ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 11:54, 27 January 2014 (EST)
-== Old/New Spartans ==
-I present you folk with this image.
-<gallery>
-File:Spartan-II canidates.png
-</gallery>
-There is 6 Spartans(plus Joseph-122 and John-117) in this that actually dont have pages. Six that at the time this was happening Halsey was talking about having her 75 candidates. So these 6 made it to training and are part of the 75 inducted Spartans. Though if they survived augmentations is unknown. <br>
-Spartan-116, Spartan-121, Spartan-118, Spartan-123, Spartan-119, Spartan-124]
-<br>
-If there is enough support of the matter. It may be an idea to add them to the list of Spartans.- [[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 23:10, 17 September 2015 (GMT)
-:Good find, may as well add them to the list with an unknown status given we don't know if they passed the augmentations or not. As far as articles are concerned, I think we would need more information to warrant creating pages for them.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 19:50, 17 September 2015 (EDT)
-==Animation Retcon==
-Ok let me put this here then. And see if anyone supports the edit or not.
-In act 2 of the animation. It is said clearly by Deja that 27 candidates died from Augmentations. While this contradicts the original 30 spartans thing. Let me remind you that it was John thinking it. And not a direct statement from someone who was going the augmentations. So really depending on the situation. Maybe the other Spartans didn't hear or know that 3 Spartans had died till after the Augmentations.
-This goes on to support that 3 Spartans died during training that is also shown in the animation. Which brings the total to 30 spartans dead by augmentations. This isn't something that breaks the lore after all just changes the numbers a lil. Seeing as what I said brings forth the reason that the original number could of been a mistake on Johns part.- [[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 18:13, 1 November 2015 (GMT)
-:How would they be able to hide three Spartans dying from John and the other trainees? The Spartans were extremely tight-knit for all that time so it's not something they could really cover up. And fellow trainees dying isn't really something John would forget about just like that either. The Halsey journal also makes a mention on September 27, 2520 that the program received its first casualty - who was an instructor - only then, and makes no mention of trainees dying before or after. It doesn't explicitly disprove the notion, of course, but it's a little odd Halsey would fail to mention the trainee casualties if they were there canonically. To me it makes much more sense to treat the training-era fatalities as another quirk of the adaptation, just like Linda and Fred being part of Blue Team since day one (and countless others). --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 13:39, 1 November 2015 (EST)
-::I agree with Jugus. Also note that it states that the 27 fatalities represent 36% of the candidates, which only works if all 75 underwent the procedures.--[[User:Rusty-112|<span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:13pt;color:blue;">''' Rusty'''</span><span style="font-size:13pt;color:red;">'''-'''</span><span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:13pt;color:blue;">'''112'''</span>]] [[Halopedia:Administrators|<span style="color:red; font-family:Arial">'''''Admin'''''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Rusty-112|<font color="blue">'''comm'''</font>]]</sup> 14:56, 1 November 2015 (EST)
-:::Guys, I recently watched the Spanish version of TFOR and there's a mention of "78" candidates instead of "75". --[[User:Dr Mutran|They&#39;re coming. They&#39;re hungry.]] ([[User talk:Dr Mutran|talk]]) 15:12, 1 November 2015 (EST)
-::::That number directly contradicts all previously established sources, which all said there were 75 candidates conscripted. It should be treated as an error. Our policy when it comes to things like this is quite clear.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 16:28, 1 November 2015 (EST)
-== Results Section? ==
-I'm not entirely sure whether this was supposed to have consistency or not, but shouldn't this section be renamed to "Performance" like the Spartan III sections? More can be added other than just CQC. -[[User:Kal825B|Kal825B]] ([[User talk:Kal825B|talk]]) 15:22, 30 October 2016 (EDT)
-==Successfully augmented split==
-I am gonna propose we split up the [https://www.halopedia.org/SPARTAN-II_program#Successfully_augmented successfully augmented] section in Class 1 into two sections.
-. A section of those we know 100% passed augs without any question. Aka a "Successfully augmented" section like it is already. This would have folks like John-117, Sam-034 so on.
-. A section in which we list those who are seen after Rehabilitation starts in 2526. So spartans like Keiichi-047, Jorge-052, Black team, so on.
-The reason for this is to be a lot more accurate in who we know actually passed augmentations at the start, and who we are not certain are in the og 33 list of Spartans.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 11:50, March 14, 2019 (EDT)
-== Unnamed SPARTAN-IIs ==
-There are SPARTAN-IIs in First Strike that are just redshirts, appropriately part of Red Team (I listed them on another site).
-It includes 3 in Red Delta, and 6 in Beta (originally 11, changed in later edition), and those who died in the pelican crash.
-Should this be mentioned in this article?
-[[User:Enough Redshirts|Enough Redshirts]] ([[User talk:Enough Redshirts|talk]]) 03:03, March 17, 2019 (EDT)