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| {{Archived|multi=Archives<br />[[/Archive 1|1]] • [[/Archive 2|2]]}} | | {{Archived}} |
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| == S-312's superior == | | == S-312's superior == |
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| ... needs to be revised on two counts. Firstly, the introduction as well as the opening quote needs to be reverted to its previous revision. The current quote would fit nicely in the "Death" section whereas the previous section fits nicely with his overall personality (or what's left of it to the player's imagination). The introduction should be the most condensed paragraph about the subject and its job should be to introduce the subject to readers. There is no need of an overview/summary of his biography/characterisation in the introduction. | | ... needs to be revised on two counts. Firstly, the introduction as well as the opening quote needs to be reverted to its previous revision. The current quote would fit nicely in the "Death" section whereas the previous section fits nicely with his overall personality (or what's left of it to the player's imagination). The introduction should be the most condensed paragraph about the subject and its job should be to introduce the subject to readers. There is no need of an overview/summary of his biography/characterisation in the introduction. |
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| Secondly, this image needs to be altered: Noble Six should be in his default configuration. We've already discussed about this years ago. On the subject of "what we've agreed years ago", it should be noted that we've also agreed that his birth date provided in GameInformer is [[Talk:SPARTAN-B312/Archive_1#Date_of_Birth|likely to be an error made by the editor]]. | | Secondly, [[:File:Noble_Six_Arrives.png|this image needs to be altered]]: Noble Six should be in his default configuration. We've already discussed about this years ago. On the subject of "what we've agreed years ago", it should be noted that we've also agreed that his birth date provided in GameInformer is [[Talk:SPARTAN-B312/Archive_1#Date_of_Birth|likely to be an error made by the editor]]. |
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| Oh, congrats Tuckers on becoming an administrator. All those red buttons!! — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 09:35, 15 July 2013 (EDT) | | Oh, congrats Tuckers on becoming an administrator. All those red buttons!! — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 09:35, 15 July 2013 (EDT) |
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| :: I'll try and figure out what my userpage is (still new to wiki stuff) and I'll upload some of the better ones. I think I already have some from your list. I would like to ask what should be represented in the Noble Six's article. Since 343i (and Bungie before them) only considers Noble Six to be male from a canonical standpoint within the fiction and that female Six is only a gameplay option for players, is it appropriate to have female Six pics in the character article of only on a Halo Reach Video Game type of page that includes info like Theater and Forge? - [[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 22:59, 19 July 2013 (EDT) | | :: I'll try and figure out what my userpage is (still new to wiki stuff) and I'll upload some of the better ones. I think I already have some from your list. I would like to ask what should be represented in the Noble Six's article. Since 343i (and Bungie before them) only considers Noble Six to be male from a canonical standpoint within the fiction and that female Six is only a gameplay option for players, is it appropriate to have female Six pics in the character article of only on a Halo Reach Video Game type of page that includes info like Theater and Forge? - [[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 22:59, 19 July 2013 (EDT) |
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| :Figured it out faster than I thought. Pics up for your review/inclusion on my UserWiki:ScaleMaster117]]. - [[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 23:34, 19 July 2013 (EDT) | | :Figured it out faster than I thought. Pics up for your review/inclusion on my [[UserWiki:ScaleMaster117]]. - [[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 23:34, 19 July 2013 (EDT) |
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| Thanks! I review them all. But I don't understand your question. What do you mean by "a Halo Reach Video Game type of page"? [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 14:27, 20 July 2013 (EDT) | | Thanks! I review them all. But I don't understand your question. What do you mean by "a Halo Reach Video Game type of page"? [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 14:27, 20 July 2013 (EDT) |
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| :Sorry, that was a bit messed up...it was late. :P What I meant was, should any reference to a female Noble Six even be in the Noble Six fictional character article (since Six is fictionally male according to 343i)? I would think the reference to a gameplay option to play Six as a female would be relegated to a Halopedia article about the Halo: Reach video game itself where it would mention other game options like Forge or Theater Mode. I'm uncertain why a female Six would be represented in the fictional article. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 14:33, 20 July 2013 (EDT) | | :Sorry, that was a bit messed up...it was late. :P What I meant was, should any reference to a female Noble Six even be in the Noble Six fictional character article (since Six is fictionally male according to 343i)? I would think the reference to a gameplay option to play Six as a female would be relegated to a Halopedia article about the Halo: Reach video game itself where it would mention other game options like Forge or Theater Mode. I'm uncertain why a female Six would be represented in the fictional article. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 14:33, 20 July 2013 (EDT) |
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| Do we have any source that states Six is canonically male? Not merely referring to Six as "he" or "him", since that can be done with gender-neutral characters, but actually listing their gender as male? The assumption here had been that Six has no canon gender, and therefore could be represented either way in their biography. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 14:52, 20 July 2013 (EDT) | | Do we have any source that states Six is canonically male? Not merely referring to Six as "he" or "him", since that can be done with gender-neutral characters, but actually listing their gender as male? The assumption here had been that Six has no canon gender, and therefore could be represented either way. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 14:52, 20 July 2013 (EDT) |
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| :All I can say is I learned this during discussions with 343i in the production of the ''Halo: The Essential Visual Guide'' and that knowledge was used in my review passes to ensure that the pronoun "she" didn't end up in any of the text referring to Noble Six. "He" is used a couple of times in that entry you'll note. If 343i uses Noble Six in any future endeavors fictionally, B312 will not be female. - [[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 15:14, 20 July 2013 (EDT)
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| Ah. In that case, I'd much rather prefer continuing to show both genders in the images, but I shall add a note pointing out that Six was specified as male in the writing of the Visual Guide. To balance out both options. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 15:42, 20 July 2013 (EDT)
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| ::You also should revert the height and weight, as Bungie stated there is no canon form of Noble Six. --[[User:DC Ambrose|DC Ambrose]] ([[User talk:DC Ambrose|talk]]) 19:55, 25 September 2013 (EDT)
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| == I say ==
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| Remove height and weight all together. It doesn't make sense for two reasons:
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| # Noble Six can be either gender, while this mass assessment makes sense for He-Six it does not fit for She-Six because,
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| # She-Six is exactly the same size as Kat, who is 6'08 and weighs 220. Oh, and . . .
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| # Bungie said there is no canon form of Noble Six.
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| Yes, I know I said 2, but the more the merrier.
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| :I don't recall anyone from Bungie ''ever'' saying that. Even if they did, their intentions don't matter if 343 Industries wants to take a different approach. If you want to hear straight from the man who provided figures for the ''EVG'', talk to [[User:ScaleMaster117|Stephen Loftus]]. He'll tell you that both Bungie and 343i consider Noble Six to be canonically male, as mentioned in the above section; the ability to play as a female Spartan is a gameplay mechanic. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our vengeance is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 20:34, 25 September 2013 (EDT)
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| ::No. There is no 'canon' Noble Six. Period. --[[User:DC Ambrose|DC Ambrose]] ([[User talk:DC Ambrose|talk]]) 20:52, 25 September 2013 (EDT)
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| :::Kindly provide a source to back up your statement. Until then, cease edit warring. [[User:Auguststorm1945|Auguststorm1945]] ([[User talk:Auguststorm1945|talk]]) 21:03, 25 September 2013 (EDT)
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| ::DC, there is a difference between gameplay mechanics and non-canon. In ''Halo 3'', when and where the Arbiter appears depends on whether you're playing solo or cooperative campaign, but neither would be canonically incorrect. Conversely, in ''Halo: Combat Evolved'', there are clearly two Spartans visible in cooperative play, and yet you wouldn't say that there were two Spartans present on Alpha Halo. But in ''Halo: Reach'', the fact that Noble Six's role to the plot is actually the pivotal point of the campaign, then you can't say that he/she is non-canon. Because if you're going to confuse gameplay mechanics and non-canon, then you could very well say that no one actually delivered Cortana to Captain Keyes at the end of ''Halo: Reach'', therefore the events of all games that came after (chronologically) did not happen. Which, of course, is ridiculous. Sona 21:09, 25 September 2013 (EDT)
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| ::::You've both misinterpreted my meaning in that there is no canon Noble Six. There's no canon ''identity'' '''of''' Noble Six. It is whatever the player presents him or her as. Noble Six is you in other words. --[[User:DC Ambrose|DC Ambrose]] ([[User talk:DC Ambrose|talk]]) 21:36, 25 September 2013 (EDT)
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| DC, you need to provide a source for your claim that "Bungie said there is no canon form of Noble Six." Until you can provide that, the Essential Visual Guide is our best source, and to be taken as correct. I have to ask though, what is your the alternative to having Six have an identity, either male or female, '''in-universe'''? That Spartan-B312 is intersex, and has both genders or no gender? That Noble-Six is a gender-neutral robot? Yes, in-game Six can be either gender, but campaign gameplay can be non-canon. You can take vacations and skip areas that canonically, the Master Chief had to fight through. Hell, the Master Chief can die... repeatedly. Just because something can happen in-game doesn't mean it's canon.--[[File:Emblem 1.jpg|20px|bottom]][[User:Rusty-112|<span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:13pt;color:blue;">''' Rusty'''</span><span style="font-size:13pt;color:red;">'''-'''</span><span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:13pt;color:blue;">'''112'''</span>]] [[Halopedia:Administrators|<span style="color:red; font-family:Arial">'''''Admin'''''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Rusty-112|<font color="blue">'''comm'''</font>]]</sup> 22:05, 25 September 2013 (EDT)
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| :DC, [[Stephen Loftus]] himself has confirmed (on this very page) that Noble Six is canonically male.
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| :''"... 343i (and Bungie before them) only considers Noble Six to be male from a canonical standpoint within the fiction... female Six is only a gameplay option for players."''
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| :''"... Six is fictionally male according to 343i."''
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| :''"If 343i uses Noble Six in any future endeavors fictionally, B312 will not be female."''
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| :He is not only our closest link to (and a frequent collaborator with) 343 Industries, but he is also one of the most esteemed members of the entire ''Halo'' community. Again, if you want to hear straight from the source, [[User Talk:ScaleMaster117|ask him about it]]. The point stands that Six is male, 6' 9" tall, and weighs 239 pounds. Regardless, you have been warned time and again about making these nonconstructive edits. Making a well-reasoned argument on the talk page is just fine, but shameless edit warring is not tolerated. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our vengeance is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 23:36, 25 September 2013 (EDT)
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| ::[[http://halo.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=personnel&cid=24527|On the contrary.]] --[[Special:Contributions/151.141.113.192|151.141.113.192]] 00:26, 26 September 2013 (EDT)
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| :::His gender is classified ''in-universe''. That doesn't prevent 343i from establishing him as male in an out-of-universe reference book. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our vengeance is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 00:39, 26 September 2013 (EDT)
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| ::::In my personal opinion, it is idiotic to write a wiki from an in-universe perspective while using out-of-universe references. =/ A little hypocritical if you ask me. I'd pick one or the other then stick with it. Would prevent confusion, like edit warring, and the debate going on right now. --[[User:DC Ambrose|DC Ambrose]] ([[User talk:DC Ambrose|talk]]) 01:42, 26 September 2013 (EDT)
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| :::::You're making it sound like we shouldn't use reference books like the Visual Guide. Not getting the logic from that.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 01:54, 26 September 2013 (EDT)
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| :::::Your (or anyone's) personal opinion is not what should be reflected in the article. An article should present every bit of information that has been released by official parties of the franchise, be it contradictory or not. It is our task to inspect, criticise and construe these information critically by noting them using section(s), reference notes, etc. Our responsibilities as editors are simply just that, editors. We can only present what is canon and what is not through the availability of official sources, and not through fan theories, headcanon, or personal opinion. — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 06:56, 26 September 2013 (EDT)
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| :::DC Ambrose, I answered your query to me in your message board, but for the benefit of folks here, I'll reiterate some of what I said. The Bungie link above is one of the oldest pieces of information on Noble Team. It has been expanded upon since even the game shipped (and mostly by 343i now). When reviewing the Visual Guide, 343i's stance was that Six was fictionally male. The height and weight in the Guide was deliberate, as was the masculine pronoun use in his entry. I'm not sure his gender is "classified in-universe" though. Since he's considered male in the fiction, any interaction he'd had with troopers, civilians, and Noble Team would not throw his gender into doubt because of his build, voice, etc. What I think would be fine to mention in an article (perhaps one on Halo: Reach, the game, is to mention that a gameplay choice was for players to be able to choose the gender for Six when they played the game. That should be distinct from how he's viewed fictionally. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 07:44, 26 September 2013 (EDT)
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| ::::Done. The in-universe parts of the article have been changed refer to Six as male, while all references to the female incarnation have been moved to the production notes and trivia section. As far as his gender being "classified in-universe", I was referring to the NOBLE Team performance reports listing the Spartan's gender as "redacted". However, like you said those reports are ''really'' old; retconning such a minor piece of them is hardly out of the question. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our vengeance is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 09:36, 26 September 2013 (EDT)
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| ''"In my personal opinion, it is idiotic to write a wiki from an in-universe perspective while using out-of-universe references. =/ A little hypocritical if you ask me. I'd pick one or the other then stick with it. Would prevent confusion, like edit warring, and the debate going on right now."''
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| That's why the in-universe and real-world parts of the article are listed separately. I suggest you take a look at the current revision. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our vengeance is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 10:39, 26 September 2013 (EDT)
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| == Never witnessed a glassing ==
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| Shouldn't the part about never witnessing a glassing be in the Trivia section, as Kat never gave Six a chance to answer? [[User:Tyler-B312|Tyler-B312]] ([[User talk:Tyler-B312|talk]]) 10:33, 6 September 2015 (EDT)
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| :Six nodded and Kat responded: "Me too." [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 15:31, 6 September 2015 (EDT)
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| ::His head wasn't on screen, all you could see at the time was an elbow. [[User:Tyler-B312|Tyler-B312]] ([[User talk:Tyler-B312|talk]]) 18:29, 7 September 2015 (EDT)
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| :He still probably nodded offscreen. If the line hadn't been truthful, Kat would've responded with something like: "It's mine" instead or "Me too". [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 21:09, 7 September 2015 (EDT)
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| ::Said by someone who apparently has a reputation for not paying attention to things around her, who is also in the middle of a glassing at the time. With his lack of a reply, there's no proof she was accurate or mistaken (he was shuffling around before, during and a bit after the question). [[User:Tyler-B312|Tyler-B312]] ([[User talk:Tyler-B312|talk]]) 12:54, 9 September 2015 (EDT)
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| Good chance he concurred if she responded with "Me too" [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] ([[User talk:Alertfiend|talk]]) 21:28, 7 September 2015 (EDT)
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| :Equal chance miss 'situational awareness' wasn't paying attention and assumed he nodded (see aforementioned shuffling). [[User:Tyler-B312|Tyler-B312]] ([[User talk:Tyler-B312|talk]]) 12:54, 9 September 2015 (EDT)
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| Invoking [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor Occam's Razor], the simplest answer is "Six concurred so Kat said 'Me too'", not "Kat completely ignored Six and so her line about Six was basically with no context or good reason for including it and forces the listener to ignore her when she could've just said something different". Therefore, we go with the former. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 14:03, 9 September 2015 (EDT)
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| == Noble Six is whatever gender you played as ==
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| Apologies if I format this incorrectly, I am not a wiki editor. It amuses me to no end that Halopedia refuses to correct the misinformation that Noble Six is male. Former Bungie employees and Reach developers including myself [[Christian Allen]], [[Marcus Lehto]], [[Jaime Griesemer]], [[Vic DeLeon]], [[Isaac Hannaford]], and current 343i Community Writer [[Alex Wakeford]] all agreed that Noble Six's gender is not canonically set, and the [[Halo Encyclopedia (2022)]] specifically and purposely does not state Six's gender. Noble Six is whatever gender you played Noble Six as. -Christian Allen
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| https://twitter.com/Serellan/status/1624115311057465345?s=20
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| https://twitter.com/Serellan/status/1623869777252093953?s=20
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| https://twitter.com/Isaac_Hannaford/status/1624294040610164737?s=20
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| https://twitter.com/haruspis/status/1624175374404911105?s=20
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| :Speaking for the [[Halopedia]] staff here. We appreciate that you have reached out, and we ultimately agree that it ''appears'' 343 Industries' current stance is likely that Noble Six's gender is not canonically set. However, this has not been officially stated and we cannot ignore official canon in which Noble Six is directly stated to be male. We do not believe that sources in which Noble Six's gender is omitted supersede the authority of the sources in which Noble Six's gender is explicitly identified. Simply put, we do not believe that an omission is the same as a retcon. For reference, our canon policy can be found [https://www.halopedia.org/Halopedia:Canon_policy here].
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| :343 Industries (and official lore created under their watch) has identified Noble Six's gender on several occasions, including those listed below.
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| :*Page 130 of ''[[Halo: The Essential Visual Guide]]'' (2011)
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| :*Page 82 of ''[[Halo: New Blood]]'' (2015)
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| :*[https://twitter.com/Halo/status/1035311842833260545 This] tweet from the official ''Halo'' Twitter account (2018)
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| :*[https://twitter.com/Halo/status/1164900347619364865 This] tweet from the official ''Halo'' Twitter account (2019)
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| :Alex Wakeford's tweet, which you mention, does convince us that 343 Industries has likely revised their stance on Noble Six's gender in recent years, but we don't find it to be quite authoritative enough to override much more definitive lore. Still, an alternative but equally valid way to view Alex's tweet is that they won't say Noble Six's gender going forward, but they also won't necessarily retcon what was said previously.
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| :If 343 Industries makes a more authoritative statement on the matter, we'd be excited to change our documentation of Noble Six to reflect this. To this end, we will be reaching out to some of our contacts to see if we can get a definitive public statement. A member of our community has also already prepared an updated draft of Noble Six's article in the event that 343 Industries does make a statement. - [[User:TheArb1ter117|<span style="color:purple;">TheArb1ter117</span>]] <span style="font-size:90%">([[User:TheArb1ter117|talk]])</span> 22:44, February 16, 2023 (EST)
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| ''[[Halo: New Blood]]'' identifies him as male.--[[User:WarGrowlmon18|WarGrowlmon18]] ([[User talk:WarGrowlmon18|talk]]) 20:16, February 16, 2023 (EST)
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| The author of Halo: New Blood, Matt Forbeck, has agreed that Jun could have misspoken or have been purposely misdirecting. I will follow up on my end as well, obviously as someone who was on the initial team that designed Six, I am passionate about their canon not being retconned. https://twitter.com/mforbeck/status/1626413254594420736?s=20 -Christian Allen (apologies for messing up any formatting here)
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| :No worries! And that is good to know. We'll be sure to include the quote from Matt Forbeck when we update Noble Six's article. We have reached out to our contacts and are now awaiting a response. We understand the desire to preserve canon! - [[User:TheArb1ter117|<span style="color:purple;">TheArb1ter117</span>]] <span style="font-size:90%">([[User:TheArb1ter117|talk]])</span> 23:18, February 16, 2023 (EST)
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| ::Just to reiterate: We do care about doing this right! We have actually been discussing this behind the scenes as a team for a good while, especially after we saw the discussions on Twitter. We aren't taking this lightly!-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 00:01, February 17, 2023 (EST)
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| == "Your file mentioned this." ==
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| I am not sure if it should be mentioned or not, but if you stare at Carter-A259, he might say "Your file mentioned this."
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| I am not someone to comment, but it probably means that SPARTAN-B312 used to stare at people for a long time, which may be disturbing, as other characters get annoyed, even Carter himself. So, should it come in the article? I require advice, so, could you please kindly guide me? [[User:ErikaWilliams|Erika]] ([[User talk:ErikaWilliams|talk]]) 08:08, September 6, 2024 (EDT)
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| I'm in no way a professional, but to me that sounds like something that would go in the trivia section. Make sure to put that it's an in-game line, so it isn't officially canon. But in SPARTAN-B312's defense, maybe Six just gets really lost in thought, or maybe Six is just an odd human. [[User:Spartan Chin|Spartan Chin]] ([[User talk:Spartan Chin|talk]]) 08:48, September 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| It's not really unique though. With the Chief or ODSTs or Noble-Six if you stare at or shoot or harass allies they say all kinds of strange things...it's an amusing minor addition to the flavor of the game but in my opinion not really worthy of calling out unless you're planning to add that kind of triviality everywhere throughout this wiki. Noble-Six certainly isn't especially singled out in this kind of behavior. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 09:28, September 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| That makes sense. Thanks ScaleMaster117! [[User:Spartan Chin|Spartan Chin]] ([[User talk:Spartan Chin|talk]]) 12:19, September 20, 2024 (EDT)
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