Editing Talk:Proto-Gravemind
From Halopedia, the Halo wiki
The edit can be undone. Please check the comparison below to verify that this is what you want to do, and then publish the changes below to finish undoing the edit.
| Latest revision | Your text | ||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
Does anyone have a picture of the ones that pilot pelicans in Halo 2?--[[User:Leckgolo434|prophit of war]] 22:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC) | Does anyone have a picture of the ones that pilot pelicans in Halo 2?--[[User:Leckgolo434|prophit of war]] 22:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC) | ||
Brain Forms can't fly. | Brain Forms can't fly. | ||
== Brain ability to control technology == | == Brain ability to control technology == | ||
| Line 25: | Line 21: | ||
By crashing ships instead of landing has the benefits of being able to approach at full speed and make removal of the infected ship more difficult. This makes it much more difficult for any quick-minded defenders to repulse or destroy. | By crashing ships instead of landing has the benefits of being able to approach at full speed and make removal of the infected ship more difficult. This makes it much more difficult for any quick-minded defenders to repulse or destroy. | ||
== nomenclature == | == nomenclature == | ||
You know, where exactly does the term ''Brain Form'' come from anyway? I was always under the assumption that it was called a ''Commander Form''. I forgot where i got that term, but I never saw Brain form until i saw it on an old fansite. '''<tt>[[user:Dude984|<font color=green>Dude984</font>]]</tt>''' <sup><nowiki>[</nowiki>[[user talk:Dude984|Communications]]<nowiki>]</nowiki>-<nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/Dude984|Contributions]]<nowiki>]</nowiki></sup> | You know, where exactly does the term ''Brain Form'' come from anyway? I was always under the assumption that it was called a ''Commander Form''. I forgot where i got that term, but I never saw Brain form until i saw it on an old fansite. '''<tt>[[user:Dude984|<font color=green>Dude984</font>]]</tt>''' <sup><nowiki>[</nowiki>[[user talk:Dude984|Communications]]<nowiki>]</nowiki>-<nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/Dude984|Contributions]]<nowiki>]</nowiki></sup>[[Image:Dude avatar copy.gif|25px]] 02:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC) | ||
:I don't know for sure, but most of this comes from HBO. --<b>[[User:Dragonclaws|<font color="000000">Dragon<font color="FF0000">c</font>laws</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Dragonclaws|<font color="000000">talk</font>]])</sup></b> 02:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC) | :I don't know for sure, but most of this comes from HBO. --<b>[[User:Dragonclaws|<font color="000000">Dragon<font color="FF0000">c</font>laws</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Dragonclaws|<font color="000000">talk</font>]])</sup></b> 02:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC) | ||
| Line 39: | Line 33: | ||
No, it isn't intelligent enough to be considered a Gravemind. Also, in the Terminals, the forerunners refer to it as The thing controlling them. I believe any GRaveminds have generic minds andknow what all the others have known, which owuld explain why they are so knowledgable. | No, it isn't intelligent enough to be considered a Gravemind. Also, in the Terminals, the forerunners refer to it as The thing controlling them. I believe any GRaveminds have generic minds andknow what all the others have known, which owuld explain why they are so knowledgable. | ||
==Proto-Gravemind== | ==Proto-Gravemind== | ||
| Line 55: | Line 47: | ||
==I Think we should Re-Rename back to Brain Form | ==I Think we should Re-Rename back to Brain Form== | ||
I Think we should Re-Rename back to Brain Form because Not many Users agree with the changer's dicision. | I Think we should Re-Rename back to Brain Form because Not many Users agree with the changer's dicision. | ||
===For=== | ===For=== | ||
| Line 61: | Line 53: | ||
{{Support}}I too agree with the descision to rename it to Brain Form, as the Gravemind on Delta Halo most likely existed during the events of Halo 1.[[User:XVArchonVx|XVArchonVx]] 22:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC) | {{Support}}I too agree with the descision to rename it to Brain Form, as the Gravemind on Delta Halo most likely existed during the events of Halo 1.[[User:XVArchonVx|XVArchonVx]] 22:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC) | ||
<s>{{Support}}HEL YES! --[[User:72.15.94.59|72.15.94.59]] 22:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)</s> | <s>{{Support}}HEL YES! --[[User:72.15.94.59|72.15.94.59]] 22:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)</s> | ||
:Only registered users may vote. <span title="I am not an employee of Wikia.">Çya</span>, [[ | :Only registered users may vote. <span title="I am not an employee of Wikia.">Çya</span>, [[w:c:halo:User:Mouse among men|<font color="black">M</font>]][[w:c:halo:User talk:Mouse among men|<font color="black">ø</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Mouse among men|<font color="black">u</font>]][[w:c:halo:Halopedia:Parasite of Halopedia|<font color="black">s</font>]][[w:c:halo:User:Mouse among men/Sandbox|<font color="black">e</font>]] 02:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC) | ||
{{Support}} The Proto-Gravemind might not be a Brain Form, it might be a stage AFTER the Brain Form.--[[User:A Grunts Savior|The Demonic Idiot]] 01:30, 29 December 2007 (UTC) | {{Support}} The Proto-Gravemind might not be a Brain Form, it might be a stage AFTER the Brain Form.--[[User:A Grunts Savior|The Demonic Idiot]] 01:30, 29 December 2007 (UTC) | ||
{{Support}} Protos may be made of multiple brain forms, we have no clear evidence that a Proto-Gravemind is the exact same as a Brain Form. [[User:Spartan 112|Spartan 112]] 15:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC) | {{Support}} Protos may be made of multiple brain forms, we have no clear evidence that a Proto-Gravemind is the exact same as a Brain Form. [[User:Spartan 112|Spartan 112]] 15:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC) | ||
::My main problem with the name brain form is that its never mentioned in Halo games, novels, comics, etc. Its not mentioned ''Anywhere''. The Beastarium, which mentions species not seen in the games like the Engineers and Precursors, doesn't mention "Brain Form" anywhere. And its Bungie's definitive source on '''all''' halo species. --[[User:EliteSpartan|'''<font color="Green">Elite</font>''']][[User talk:EliteSpartan|'''<font color="Green">Spartan</font>''']] | ::My main problem with the name brain form is that its never mentioned in Halo games, novels, comics, etc. Its not mentioned ''Anywhere''. The Beastarium, which mentions species not seen in the games like the Engineers and Precursors, doesn't mention "Brain Form" anywhere. And its Bungie's definitive source on '''all''' halo species. --[[User:EliteSpartan|'''<font color="Green">Elite</font>''']][[User talk:EliteSpartan|'''<font color="Green">Spartan</font>''']][[Image:MVP achievement.gif|30px]] 17:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC) | ||
{{Support}} Their is no evidence that the proto-gravemind and brain form are the same. And I remember Brain form | {{Support}} Their is no evidence that the proto-gravemind and brain form are the same. And I remember Brain form | ||
| Line 80: | Line 70: | ||
===Against=== | ===Against=== | ||
{{Oppose}}What does halo 1 have anything to do with a gravemind in halo 2 and 3?--''' | {{Oppose}}What does halo 1 have anything to do with a gravemind in halo 2 and 3?--'''[[Halopedia:UNSC of Halopedia/Council|<font color="DarkOrange">General</font>]]''' '''[[User:Ryanngreenday|<font color="DarkOrange">Running</font>]]''' '''[[User talk:Ryanngreenday|<font color="DarkOrange">Riot</font>]] [[User:Ryanngreenday/Me|<font color="red">R</font>]][[User:Ryanngreenday/Time line of Ryan|<font color="red">y</font>]][[User:Ryanngreenday/USER BOX|<font color="red">a</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Ryanngreenday|<font color="red">n</font>]]'''[[Image:'s_emblem.jpg|15px]] 22:49, 3 November 2007 (UTC) | ||
{{Oppose}}Can't be done. Brain form is a made up fan name. Proto-Gravemind is the name given by bungie. --[[User:EliteSpartan|<b><span style="color: Green">EliteSpartan</span></b>]] | {{Oppose}}Can't be done. Brain form is a made up fan name. Proto-Gravemind is the name given by bungie. --[[User:EliteSpartan|<b><span style="color: Green">EliteSpartan</span></b>]][[Image:Killing Spree Medal.gif|30px]] <sup>[[User talk:EliteSpartan|<b><span style="color: Black">My Talk</span></b>]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/EliteSpartan|<b><font color=black>My Contribs</font></b>]]</sub>[[Image:Sergeant.jpg|30px]][[Image:GDI.jpg|30px]] November 5 2007 | ||
::It is never said that THIS was a proto-gravemind, only that "a Gravemind is formed when a Proto-Graveming reaches critical mass" annd not "A proto-gravemind is a brainform, go screw up all of our fan's lives", retard . | ::It is never said that THIS was a proto-gravemind, only that "a Gravemind is formed when a Proto-Graveming reaches critical mass" annd not "A proto-gravemind is a brainform, go screw up all of our fan's lives", retard . | ||
:::The beastarium(which has the info on ALL halo species) never even mentions a "Brain Form". All evidence points to this creature being a proto-gravemind. Calm down stuff gets renamed all the time its not a big deal.--[[User:EliteSpartan|'''<font color="Green">EliteSpartan</font>''']] | :::The beastarium(which has the info on ALL halo species) never even mentions a "Brain Form". All evidence points to this creature being a proto-gravemind. Calm down stuff gets renamed all the time its not a big deal.--[[User:EliteSpartan|'''<font color="Green">EliteSpartan</font>''']] [[Image:Sergeant-gr3.gif|25px]] <sup>[[User talk:EliteSpartan|'''<font color="Black">My Talk</font>''']]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/EliteSpartan|'''<font color="Black">My Contribs</font>''']]</sub>[[Image:Cavalier achievement.gif|30px]] 21:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC) | ||
::Evidence? "Protogravemind" only said once! I don't even count Bestiaruim (the DVD spelling) or any books as canon unless mentioned or noted in the games. The books are not by Bungie, just by some guy in Washington (My home state). I should just ask them, It's about an hour drive from my house anyways. {{unsigned|71.112.156.166}} | ::Evidence? "Protogravemind" only said once! I don't even count Bestiaruim (the DVD spelling) or any books as canon unless mentioned or noted in the games. The books are not by Bungie, just by some guy in Washington (My home state). I should just ask them, It's about an hour drive from my house anyways. {{unsigned|71.112.156.166}} | ||
{{Oppose}}The Beastiarium came bundled with Halo 3, which is canon, so I would say to trust the Beastiarium. According to [[Halopedia:Canon Policy]], the Beastiarium ranks as "Other Media", so unless Bungie, an affialiate, the novels, or the games say otherwise, trust it. <span title="I am not an employee of Wikia.">Çya</span>, [[w:c:halo:User:Mouse among men|<font color="black">M</font>]][[w:c:halo:User talk:Mouse among men|<font color="black">ø</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Mouse among men|<font color="black">u</font>]][[w:c:halo:Halopedia:Parasite of Halopedia|<font color="black">s</font>]][[w:c:halo:User:Mouse among men/Sandbox|<font color="black">e</font>]] 18:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
{{Oppose}}The Beastiarium came bundled with Halo 3, which is canon, so I would say to trust the Beastiarium. According to [[Halopedia:Canon | |||
{{Oppose}}Yeah, I'm pretty sure it ''is'' Bungie, or at least approved by Bungie. ''That'' book was included in the game. The writers ''do'' see the Halo Bible. Contact Harvest was even written by the ''Bungie'' guy who cowrote the games. And please don't hassle them. --<b>[[User:Dragonclaws|<font color="#4D56B1">Dragon<font color="#F28500">c</font>laws</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Dragonclaws|<font color="#4D56B1">talk</font>]])</sup></b> 18:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC) | {{Oppose}}Yeah, I'm pretty sure it ''is'' Bungie, or at least approved by Bungie. ''That'' book was included in the game. The writers ''do'' see the Halo Bible. Contact Harvest was even written by the ''Bungie'' guy who cowrote the games. And please don't hassle them. --<b>[[User:Dragonclaws|<font color="#4D56B1">Dragon<font color="#F28500">c</font>laws</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Dragonclaws|<font color="#4D56B1">talk</font>]])</sup></b> 18:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC) | ||
| Line 99: | Line 87: | ||
{{Oppose}} Official names FTW!!! '''[[User:Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="red">Guesty</font>]]-[[User talk:Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="blue">Persony</font>]]-[[Special:Contributions/Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="green">Thingy</font>]]''' 07:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC) | {{Oppose}} Official names FTW!!! '''[[User:Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="red">Guesty</font>]]-[[User talk:Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="blue">Persony</font>]]-[[Special:Contributions/Guesty-Persony-Thingy|<font color="green">Thingy</font>]]''' 07:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC) | ||
{{Oppose}} Agreed. Official names take precedence over fan names. [[User:Calgar|'''Rima 'Lacusee''']] | {{Oppose}} Agreed. Official names take precedence over fan names. [[User:Calgar|'''Rima 'Lacusee''']] [[Image:MinorElite5.jpg|24px]] <sup>|[[User talk:Calgar|Talk]]|Minor Domo of the [[Halopedia:Covenant of Halopedia|Covenant]]|</sup> 10:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC) | ||
{{Oppose}} Sorry boys, it needs to stay Proto-Gravemind. It's like calling the Chief John instead of John-117 --[[w:c:godzilla:User:Lordofmonsterisland|<font color="green">The Lord of Monster Island</font>]] <sup>[[w:c:unhalo:User:Lordofmonsterisland|<font color=#660099>The Lord of Grunts</font>]]</sup> <sub>[[w:c:halo:User:Lordofmonsterisland|<font color=#FFCC00>SPARTAN-012 James</font>]]</sub> <sup>[[w:c:halofanon:User:Lordofmonsterisland|<font color=#00FF00>MCPO James Davis</font>]]</sup> <sub>[[User talk:Lordofmonsterisland|<font color=#33FFFF>I here your cries</font>]]</sub> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Lordofmonsterisland|<font color=#CC3333>May your works be honorable</font>]]</sup> 20:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
{{Oppose}} | {{Oppose}} I agree with the above [[Honor Guard Reborn]] | ||
==Setting the name issue straight== | ==Setting the name issue straight== | ||
| Line 109: | Line 98: | ||
:My reaction: | :My reaction: | ||
:#Paragraph breaks are awesome and help to combat what I call the "TL;DR Effect". I did read your comment, but had I not read it via the Diff, I might not have read it at all due to the sheer size. | :#Paragraph breaks are awesome and help to combat what I call the "TL;DR Effect". I did read your comment, but had I not read it via the [[Help:Diff|Diff]], I might not have read it at all due to the sheer size. | ||
:#Both forms are created using the same method. Merge a bunch of infected bodies and you've got the beginnings of your so-called "[[Brain Form|Pilot Form]]". Merge a bunch of infected bodies and you're [[Proto-Gravemind|well on your way]] to making [[Gravemind|gravy]]. | :#Both forms are created using the same method. Merge a bunch of infected bodies and you've got the beginnings of your so-called "[[Brain Form|Pilot Form]]". Merge a bunch of infected bodies and you're [[Proto-Gravemind|well on your way]] to making [[Gravemind|gravy]]. | ||
:#"Flood Captain" could well be a prototypical name, or could have been derived from Captain Keyes' contribution to the form. Hell, it could refer to Keyes himself -- the form might not have been named a Flood Captain but instead a [[Flood]] [[Captain Keyes|Captain]]. | :#"Flood Captain" could well be a prototypical name, or could have been derived from Captain Keyes' contribution to the form. Hell, it could refer to Keyes himself -- the form might not have been named a [[Flood Captain]] but instead a [[Flood]] [[Captain Keyes|Captain]]. | ||
:#A Proto-Gravemind could easily be a delegation mechanism. It may be possible that once a main Gravemind has formed, Proto-Graveminds will continue to be instructed, but only to deal with narrow tasks, under the Gravemind's leadership. The Gravemind has compared himself to a computer network before (in the [[Terminals]], when he tells [[Mendicant Bias]] that "you need only look at your own [[Wikipedia:Network topology|[network] topology]]" to see the similarities), and he may very well act like one. Specifically, he could be a [[Wikipedia:Network topology#Star|star network]], with each individual Flood form acting as a [[Wikipedia:Node (networking)|node]], and Proto-Graveminds acting as hubs. | :#A Proto-Gravemind could easily be a delegation mechanism. It may be possible that once a main Gravemind has formed, Proto-Graveminds will continue to be instructed, but only to deal with narrow tasks, under the Gravemind's leadership. The Gravemind has compared himself to a computer network before (in the [[Terminals]], when he tells [[Mendicant Bias]] that "you need only look at your own [[Wikipedia:Network topology|[network] topology]]" to see the similarities), and he may very well act like one. Specifically, he could be a [[Wikipedia:Network topology#Star|star network]], with each individual Flood form acting as a [[Wikipedia:Node (networking)|node]], and Proto-Graveminds acting as hubs. | ||
:#*Say he needs to command a group of five Flood forms. He ''may'' do this by sending five sets of commands to one Form, who relays it to the others. This is actually how the Internet works -- you don't send your data to Halopedia; you send it to one computer, which relays it to another, which relays it to another, ..., which relays it to Halopedia. | :#*Say he needs to command a group of five Flood forms. He ''may'' do this by sending five sets of commands to one Form, who relays it to the others. This is actually how the Internet works -- you don't send your data to Halopedia; you send it to one computer, which relays it to another, which relays it to another, ..., which relays it to Halopedia. | ||
:#*Now say he needs to pilot fifty ships. So he has his Combat Forms construct fifty Proto-Graveminds. Then, he relays general commands to the Proto-Graveminds, which act as [[Wikipedia:network hub|network hub]]s, simplifying the Gravemind's operations by lightening the load, so to speak. He gives a general command to the Proto-Gravemind, and the uncooked gravy decides how best to execute that command given its immediate surroundings and the available Flood forms within those surroundings. | :#*Now say he needs to pilot fifty ships. So he has his Combat Forms construct fifty Proto-Graveminds. Then, he relays general commands to the Proto-Graveminds, which act as [[Wikipedia:network hub|network hub]]s, simplifying the Gravemind's operations by lightening the load, so to speak. He gives a general command to the Proto-Gravemind, and the uncooked gravy decides how best to execute that command given its immediate surroundings and the available Flood forms within those surroundings. | ||
:#Given such a setup, subordinate Proto-Graveminds wouldn't want to increase in mass because there's already enough gravy to go around. All Flood forms have a linked mind, the Gravemind's mind... so if two Graveminds were to be formed "within range" of each other, their minds would likely be linked. Do you really think that an egotistical -- and likely narcissistic -- being who hates being outsmarted and obviously doesn't work with others would [[Wikipedia:Dissociative identity disorder|get along with itself]]? Neither do I. | :#Given such a setup, subordinate Proto-Graveminds wouldn't want to increase in mass because there's already enough gravy to go around. All Flood forms have a linked mind, the Gravemind's mind... so if two Graveminds were to be formed "within range" of each other, their minds would likely be linked. Do you really think that an egotistical -- and likely narcissistic -- being who hates being outsmarted and obviously doesn't work with others would [[Wikipedia:Dissociative identity disorder|get along with itself]]? Neither do I. | ||
:So my basic argument, then, is that Brain Forms and Proto-Graveminds are formed the same way, the Gravemind is like the center of a Star network, Proto-Graveminds act like hubs when there's already a Gravemind, and subordinate Proto-Graveminds limit their growth so as to prevent the Gravemind from being affected by multiple personality disorder. <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><b> | :So my basic argument, then, is that Brain Forms and Proto-Graveminds are formed the same way, the Gravemind is like the center of a Star network, Proto-Graveminds act like hubs when there's already a Gravemind, and subordinate Proto-Graveminds limit their growth so as to prevent the Gravemind from being affected by multiple personality disorder. <span style="background:#AADDAA;display:inline-block;height:16px;padding-right:4px;line-height:1em;position:relative;top:-3px;-moz-border-radius:0 50% 50%"><b>[[Image:DavidJCobb_Emblem.svg|16px]] [[User:DavidJCobb|<span style="color:#000;position:relative;top:.15em">DavidJCobb </span>]]</b></span> 22:15, September 2, 2009 (UTC) | ||
:Haha, Mr. Cobb, I do believe I'd have to agree with the majority of your analysis. And sorry about the paragraph breaks. I wasn't really thinking about formatting at the time. | |||
: | :Anyways, I COMPLETELY agree with what you said about the Flood Captain name. It makes much more sense in the context of Keyes' inclusion in the blob. I had thought there probably was a connection but decided to at least mention it at the end of my rant for some closure. | ||
:And | :I also completely agree that Proto-Graveminds work as relays under one Gravemind. Makes sense to me. I wasn't arguing THAT particular point I guess. And I am completely aware of Gravemind's self-described likeness to a computer network. I also think you made an excellent (and amusing) argument about the limitations on proto-gravemind growth. No, it certainly doesn't seem like Gravemind would want any more of himself around. :D | ||
: | :But why is the hunk of flesh in Halo Wars so darn large? That thing stretched for quite a ways. It seems the most logical answer would be that its job was probably to receive commands straight from Gravemind across the depths of space and broadcast it to other subordinate hubs. But would those hubs be named Proto-Graveminds as well? | ||
: | :I guess I just don't agree that just because he uses these sacks of rotten flesh to broadcast his commands, that they can all be labeled as Proto-Graveminds. The EU also mentions that Gravemind can broadcast through individual combat forms (or Tank Forms as seen in H3). Yet we don't call THEM ProtoGraveminds! These combat forms can also blob together to grow in size and cognitive thought like the protograveminds in question. In fact, they have EVERY ability a protogravemind has. | ||
:Every flood form has the potential to become or add to one of these hubs. They can transfer information as they are anyways. So is there a certain mass that determines when a few lumped combat forms become a "proto-gravemind"? Is it when they start resembling a moldy sack of potatoes? | |||
:It seems the most likely answer is that, like the argument you gave concerning Captain Keyes, the name "Proto-Gravemind" listed in the brochure could be a very generic term that refers to any lump of flood with the ability to act as a node...which essentially, is any lump of flood. The term could cover separate Forms of flood, maybe even the imagined Pilot Form! Haha. So clearly now, because I am so easily confused, what defines a Proto-Gravemind from say... a Pure Form, another lump of calcium and biomass that has been observed in-game to act as a sort of hub? | |||
:I guess the only clearcut difference I could see is the size and possibly cognitive ability. But again I bring the question to you about how on earth the giant thing in Halo Wars has more like characteristics with Keyes bloated sack than THAT has with any other flood hub/form. Maybe they're grouped together because they look sack-like? Haha. They both serve a delegate purpose, true, but at least the Halo Wars thing had defensive tentacles and coordinated the whole planet's forces. That thing truly earned the "Proto-Gravemind" moniker. CE's blob never twitched. | |||
:All in all the brochure never mentioned how big or small a Proto-Gravemind had to be or even its purpose beyond coordination, so in all fairness, i concede that you've made a very reasonable point. Hope to hear your reply soon.--[[User talk:Nerfherder1428|Nerfherder1428]] 02:25, September 10, 2009 (UTC) | |||