Editing Talk:Operation: RED FLAG

== Covenant Vessel ==
The Data Drop (specifically 3-4) doesn't specifically specify that the Covenant Vessel taken for Phase 1 must be a CAS / CSO. The Class is only mentioned as a possible location for a covenant hierarch for phase 3. If there isn't any objections, I'd consider the specification of a particular class for Phase 1 to be unnecessary and unaccurate for the article. [[User:Yaptapthedestroyer|Yaptapthedestroyer]] ([[User talk:Yaptapthedestroyer|talk]]) 21:53, February 8, 2023 (EST)

== Marines ==
[[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  16:46, 6 March 2011 (EST): Don't you think it's odd that it was not mentioned until Halo: The Flood that the UNSC had a whole army of Orbital Drop Shock Troopers also on board, with even a Major on board?

:Well, at that point the ODSTs barely existed in the canon. We had a few lines in The Fall of Reach that they were special forces, and John beating three to death, but very little description of what they actually ''did'', and no reason to assume they would be involved with something like RED FLAG. The one thing we knew, that ODSTs '''didn't''' like Spartans at all, made this even less likely. The Flood was our real introduction to the cream of the Marine Corps crop. We really have Deitz to thank for fleshing out the ODSTs, from which they have become a staple of the franchise - has there been a Halo game since 1 that ''hasn't'' had Helljumpers in some shape or form? No. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 23:11, 6 March 2011 (EST)

::I'd also like to point out that there is nothing in ''Fall of Reach'' that outright says that ODSTs were to assist the SPARTANs, who traditionally considered Marines to be weak links in combat. Additionally, in ''First Strike'', the UNSC Security Committee believed that RED FLAG was as good as failed when they learned that most of the SPARTAN-IIs were left behind on Reach when the ''Autumn'' jumped out. I'd also like to take the time to point out that John-117 was not yet Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy, and Sergeant Johnson wasn't a Sergeant Major, like the infobox says. -- [[User talk:SFH|SFH]] 23:24, 6 March 2011 (EST)

:: [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  16:09, 7 March 2011 (EST): I already think I know. The Marines were to help out with the SPARTANs operations. But for the most part stay the hell out of their way for most of the Operation. They would only play a big role at two parts. 
:1. If all the SPARTAN-IIs were eliminated than the Orbital Drop Shock Troopers would take over.
:2. Once the Covenant home-world was located, they would assist in the raid and kidnapping of the Covenant leaders.

There was no indication of it in the canon that they were involved that I can find. I kept editing the page to reflect this but Vegerot kept editing it back. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 19:43, 7 March 2011 (EST)

[[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  19:56, 7 March 2011 (EST): The evidence is clear, the fact that they are on the ship. What I said above with the 2 facts, THAT is speculation, but it is not speculation that ONI does everything for a purpose, so they did not put a whole army of Marines on board because they could. Especially because they needed every trooper fighting for humanity's survival!

:No, I mean there is no evidence or menton they were there '''AT ALL''' for RED FLAG. The only time they are seen is in ''The Flood'' at that is because they were aboard evacuating from Reach, but they weren't on beforehand in the briefing for the op. Just because it seems like they would have a purpose doesn't mean they were there, otherwise ONI would have mentioned them. They are not mentioned, therefore it's just speculation. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 17:05, 8 March 2011 (EST)

[[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  17:14, 8 March 2011 (EST): They weren't at the meeting because they were already briefed. and Besides, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

:Firstly, please put your signature at the end of the comment, not at the start. Secondly, speculation cannot become fact without concrete evidence.— <span style="font-size:120%; font-family:Palatino Linotype; font-style:italic;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 17:16, 8 March 2011 (EST)

Thank you Subtank! So until we see concrete evidence we must assume that they are on there for a purpose, instead of speculating crazy reason why they might be aboard! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  17:25, 8 March 2011 (EST)!

:However, my comment also counter what you're proposing; they might be there for a purpose but not for the purposes of RED FLAG. Therefore, it is more of supporting what Tuckerscreator had said before.— <span style="font-size:120%; font-family:Palatino Linotype; font-style:italic;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 17:30, 8 March 2011 (EST)

Exactly. Vegerot, it's not absence of evidence, what you're using is "[http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ignorant.html Appeal to ignorance]", i.e. "if there is no proof they weren't there, then they were there." That's a fallacy, and goes against the policy for information on this wiki. What there ''isn't'' is proof that there were involved at all. You might as well say that Elites were involved too. The burden of proof is on you, the one making the extraordinary claim. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 17:36, 8 March 2011 (EST)

:But how could they transfer a whole army on there?! We know that there were pilots on there though. [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  17:45, 8 March 2011 (EST)!!

They got on afterward. There was an evacuation, you know. Some Marines might have been present for crew purposes but otherwise RED FLAG was intended to be an all-Spartan mission. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 17:51, 8 March 2011 (EST)

As I understand it, battalions are led by Colonels, not Majors, and companies by Captains not Lieutenants. So obviously part of the original chain of command was missing, possibly through fighting on Reach. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 18:44, 8 March 2011 (EST)

O.K. But just out of curiosity, does Major Silva outrank Master Chief SPARTAN-117? [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  19:16, 8 March 2011 (EST)!
:Yes. [[Master Chief Petty Officer]] is a [[non-commissioned officer]], while a [[Major]] is a [[commissioned officer]]. -- [[User talk:SFH|SFH]] 19:33, 8 March 2011 (EST)

::There's two trains of thought when considering Special Operations formations such as Battalions, Regiments/Groups, etc. One, it's just a normally organized unit along the same lines as the Infantry branch; or two, it's a smaller, more centralized, overarching organization consisting of a dozen or so elite teams. The ODST's throughout it's history in the ''Halo'' universe have fallen into both. Throughout history, battalions and larger formations have been lead by soldiers and Marines with lower ranks than normally required. A CO may be killed, put out of action, reassigned, etc. and the XO or a transfer (normally lower ranking) takes his or her place. This may be the case when one ascends, but isn't promoted to the proper rank for that unit size. However, as the ''Helljumpers'' of the 105th ShockDiv sometimes drop their "shock infantry" role and become direct action/reconnaissance/intelligence personnel, their battalions may be more akin to modern-day MARSOC organization where a battalion of Recon Marines numbers at approximately 250. A Major would certainly be a more useful asset than a Lieutenant Colonel in this situation. Then again, the Marine Corps prides itself on a de-centralized command mentality where everyone down to the Corporal level can successfully lead Marines. {{User:CommanderTony/Sig|March 9th, 2011}}
:::And just to add the last bit of fuel to the fire before I end this debate:
{{Quote|'''Why was it on there in the first place? RED FLAG operational requirements only stated that the Pillar of Autumn's Spartan detachment were to be involved in combat deployments. Sure, the cruiser's shipboard Marine contingent would have provided support, but there's nothing in canon to suggest otherwise. So, remind me again why ya'll had a pointless three-day debate when you could simply refer to canon.'''|My boast on Tuckerscreator's userboard}}
:::I think we're done here. :) {{User:CommanderTony/Sig|March 9th, 2011}}

== Halo 5 Limited Edition ==

The limited edition for ''Halo 5'' (as does Fred's and Kelly's Waypoint articles) refers to the operation as a mission to defend Reach's ODP generators. While we know the operation's original goals, is it possible that with the Fall of Reach that RED FLAG became an operation to defend the ODP generators instead? --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 19:47, 7 March 2016 (EST)

:I'd say it became the Spartans' de facto objective (in addition to the main, official objective). If I remember correctly, John made a deal with Keyes aboard the ''Autumn'', saying that they would still try to board a Covenant ship if possible. More generally, I'd say RED FLAG was supposed to be an operation part of the Fall of Reach. According to the data drops, Reach had to be sacrificed, and the Spartans were supposed to steal one of the Covenant fleet's capital ship. So RED FLAG-related events, both official and non-official, should be more integrated within the "Fall of Reach" article as a whole. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 07:52, 8 March 2016 (EST)

::The ''Autumn'' just about to jump out of the Epsilon Eridani system, though, before the final invasion started. I took it that Parangosky and Stanforth scuttled the original plan for RED FLAG (ie. board a ship at Reach) after the ''LNoS'' was taken out, and intended for Keyes not to stick around in Epsilon Eridani any longer. I suppose the defense of the generators can be understood as a new objective that was introduced mid-mission if the limited edition cards say so. RED FLAG was probably considered to have begun when the ''Autumn'' departed and anything from then on was part of the operation. It's a bit hard to draw the line as to where the operation ended or if the actions on Halo were also part of it (since the ''Autumn'' was involved), but I guess we'll just stick with what we're given— i.e. the Reach ground op being considered part of RED FLAG. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 12:20, 8 March 2016 (EST)