Editing Talk:Office of Naval Intelligence
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The real life one? What does it mean? --[[User:JohnSpartan117|JohnSpartan117]] 04:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC) | The real life one? What does it mean? --[[User:JohnSpartan117|JohnSpartan117]] 04:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC) | ||
:"Always Vigillant" -[[User:ED|ED]] 19:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC) | :"Always Vigillant" -[[User:ED|ED]] 19:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC) | ||
== Sources == | == Sources == | ||
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If that is its formal name, why don't we call it that?--[[User:The All-knowing Sith'ari|The All-knowing Sith'ari]] 20:39, 29 October 2008 (UTC) | If that is its formal name, why don't we call it that?--[[User:The All-knowing Sith'ari|The All-knowing Sith'ari]] 20:39, 29 October 2008 (UTC) | ||
:Well, that name has only been mentioned once. It seems to be implied that it's the formal name, but the general populace and military personnel (high-ranking or not) refer to it as "ONI". --[[User:UNSC Trooper|<font color="darkblue">UNSC Trooper</font>]] | :Well, that name has only been mentioned once. It seems to be implied that it's the formal name, but the general populace and military personnel (high-ranking or not) refer to it as "ONI". --[[User:UNSC Trooper|<font color="darkblue">UNSC Trooper</font>]] [[Image:unsctrooper_small.jpg|14px]] <sup>[[User talk:UNSC Trooper|<font color="green">Talk</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/UNSC Trooper|<font color="green">My Work</font>]]</sub> 16:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC) | ||
::Maybe ONI is only part of the UNSC Military Intelligence Division, and we've only heard that name once because of the Navy-bias that seems to exist in Halo. | ::Maybe ONI is only part of the UNSC Military Intelligence Division, and we've only heard that name once because of the Navy-bias that seems to exist in Halo. | ||
:::The Fall of Reach mentions [[Michael Stanforth]] being the head of "Section Three" of the UNSC Military Intelligence Division. It could indeed be referring to another "Section Three", as ONI Section Three's executive officer has never been named, but I'm not entirely sure. --[[User:UNSC Trooper|<font color="darkblue">UNSC Trooper</font>]] | :::The Fall of Reach mentions [[Michael Stanforth]] being the head of "Section Three" of the UNSC Military Intelligence Division. It could indeed be referring to another "Section Three", as ONI Section Three's executive officer has never been named, but I'm not entirely sure. --[[User:UNSC Trooper|<font color="darkblue">UNSC Trooper</font>]] [[Image:unsctrooper_small.jpg|14px]] <sup>[[User talk:UNSC Trooper|<font color="green">Talk</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/UNSC Trooper|<font color="green">My Work</font>]]</sub> 20:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC) | ||
::::Perhaps ONI is a section of the UNSC Military Intelligence Division (or at least subordinate to it, given that it's part of the Navy), and the UNSCMID has numbered sections, similar to the British practice of MI5 and MI6 (MI stands for Military Intelligence).--[[User:The All-knowing Sith'ari|The All-knowing Sith'ari]] 22:19, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | ::::Perhaps ONI is a section of the UNSC Military Intelligence Division (or at least subordinate to it, given that it's part of the Navy), and the UNSCMID has numbered sections, similar to the British practice of MI5 and MI6 (MI stands for Military Intelligence).--[[User:The All-knowing Sith'ari|The All-knowing Sith'ari]] 22:19, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | ||
== | == team black == | ||
shouldn't team black be somewhere under units? | shouldn't team black be somewhere under units? | ||
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Wouldn't Section 1 be considered logistics? [[User talk:EpsilonIndi|EpsilonIndi]] 17:53, 4 June 2011 (EDT) | Wouldn't Section 1 be considered logistics? [[User talk:EpsilonIndi|EpsilonIndi]] 17:53, 4 June 2011 (EDT) | ||
== | ==Antagonists== | ||
Is the ONI the "bad guys" after the Covenant and the Flood? In ''The Mona Lisa'', John Smith is an ONI officer who tested the Flood infection on human prisoners, and he obviously worked against Lopez and her squad. In ''Glasslands'', ONI attempts to help a group of Elites to start an insurrection against Thel 'Vadam, the very Elite who symbolizes the alliance between the humans and the Sangheili, which helped the humans defeat the Covenant Empire. And to some extent, they are [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonster Complete Monsters], abducting children from their parents, training them and then letting the majority of them to die. Sure, there are some good ONI characters: Veronica Dare, Catherine Halsey, Connor Brien... but then there's also James Ackerson, Aaron Gibson, John Smith, etc. | |||
:I | |||
: | The way the ONI gives out propaganda can be considered immoral. Look at the [[Office of Naval Intelligence Directive 930|ONI Directive 930]]. Numerous Spartans sacrificed themselves, for nothing. Issac-039 and Vinh-030 sacrificed themselves to save Dr Halsey and other Spartans, but they wouldn't get any recognition, because they are MIA. People assumed they just gone missing. No one would know they ''died'' to save Halsey. Just some food for thoughts. —[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:silver;">S331</span>]] [[File:Bubbleshieldhud.svg|14px]]<sub>([[User talk:Spartan331|When I played Halo: CE]], [[Special:Contributions/Spartan331|we didn't have any fancy-shmancy armor abilities...]])</sub> 03:01, 12 September 2011 (EDT) | ||
:The only antagonists among ONI are Section III. Section I and II have jobs that are vital to humanity's survival - Section I is essentially espionage and counter-espionage, which is an absolute necessity in a post-war universe where Insurrectionists with UNSC secrets could sell them to Brutes or Jackals. Section II may deal with propaganda, but that in itself does not a villain make - the Allies pumped a constant stream of it during World War II, and most countries continue to. The modern US Military cooperates with Hollywood productions because depicting their personnel and machines is good advertising. After Top Gun, recruitment figures for the Navy jumped. They also have very good reasons not to let people know that Spartans can be killed. During World War II, US comics had superheroes fighting Nazis long before they actually entered the war. Now, imagine that your country is fighting Nazi Germany, is losing, and that these superheroes ''are real''. It would be a major morale boost - hence declassifying them. But you completely lose the effect that has if you also tell people that, sorry, they're weak against Kryptonite. Everybody uses propaganda - it only becomes a Repugnant and Terribly Unconscionable Thing when it's done by the "enemy". | |||
:At the same time, Section III's NavSpecWar and NavSpecWep departments have done the bulk of ONIs immoral actions that we've seen so far - NavSpecWep with the SPARTAN-II and -III Programs, and NavSpecWar with their covert warfare against their ostensible "ally" the Sangheili. But, again, they were semi-justified for their ends, if not their means - savin humanity. The SPARTAN-II Program was meant to shut down an Insurrection that could see human-occupied space turn upon itself, colony against colony, an escalating war for territorial and ideological dominance that the UNSC wanted to stop... by imposing their ''own'' ideology. The SPARTAN-III Program was meant to buy humanity time. And it worked. Yes, it saw the deaths of hundreds of supersoldiers, but never needlessly. The operations they engaged in distracted or tied up the Covenant for months, months that the rest of humanity needed. And the operations against the Sangheili are also justified - after fighting nearly thirty years against them for survival, humanity understandably is not eager to see them build up their strength. Likewise, the Sangheili resent humanity's tenacity and creativity, and see us as a threat. Yes, they helped each other destroy the Covenant - but now that the Prophets have disappeared and the remainder of the Covenant have fallen apart, that doesn't mean anything anymore. They don't "owe" each other anything. Whoever wins the power struggles of Sanghelios, humanity will be able to take advantage of things. Parangosky is funding the rebels to destabilise the status quo - if the rebels win, the Sangheili are weakened by conflict and political turmoil, humanity have valuable intelligence and contacts and are in a position of strength. If the Arbiter's faction wins, the Sangheili still resent the hell out of humanity, but are held back by the Arbiter and Hood's negotiations, and humanity gain valuable intelligence and contacts and are in a position of strength. Whichever side wins, humanity comes out on top. It's a very interesting [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit Xanatos Gambit] - whatever happens, humanity comes out stronger. | |||
:Mostly, I think, ONI exists to throw a bit of ambiguity into the mix - the suggestion that fighting for the right cause, and being on the winning side, doesn't by default make one a "good guy". ONI have the right goals, but accomplish them by means born from desperation. Their heart is in the right place - it's just a black, shrivelled thing. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 23:36, 14 January 2012 (EST) | |||
::Very well said SpecOps, I agree with pretty much all of it. Even though I really, really dislike Section III and what they do, I think it makes for a much more interesting universe, so it's not just about the humans, who are good and perfect and weaker, fighting these big mean aliens from somewhere else, who want to kill all of us. The series has slowly been getting away from the simple good vs evil idea. CE was just that, good vs evil, nothing really in between. Halo 2 added some character and feeling of the other side of the war, following Thel, and learning how they were all wrong. Halo 3 more or less just kept this idea going, though it did have the Gravemind helping you for a bit, even if he was just playing everyone. ODST is where it really gets interesting, because that's where ONI comes in. That's what changes everything, and why I think all post-ODST Halo media will be more complex, and darker. If Halo: CE is the best example of the early Halo universe's basic Good vs Evil, then I think the best example of the newer, darker, and more complex Halo universe is best shown [[The Mona Lisa|here]]. [[User talk:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:40, 15 January 2012 (EST) | |||
== | :::Thanks! I like the idea of complexity - few answers worth asking are "yes" or "no", black and white make for a boring light spectrum, etc etc. And just in case my wall of text put some people off, I'm not saying SecIII aren't villains, because they totally are. My point is just that even as villainous as they are, ONI aren't conventional "antagonists". I actually like the depiction shown in ODST - that they're willing to reassign special warfare troops from an absolutely important mission, not tell them anything about what they're going after, and then in the end it seems a partial anticlimax that it's just an Engineer, only for that Engineer to play a huge behind-the-scenes role in future canon. That just seems like ONI's style to me! -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 06:33, 15 January 2012 (EST) | ||
Yeah, I agree with what you're both saying. One of the best ways of describing ONI is what Parangosky said "I do a lot of bad things. I spend every day ruining peoples' lives and ending them, but I know that by killing these people less people will die because of that." Paraphrasing, but pretty much sums them up: they do lotsa bad things, but overall help people out. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[File:Icon-Vegito2.gif|21px]] [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 14:09, 15 January 2012 (EST)! | |||
:Yeah, I agree, villain is better than antagonist. Villain just says they do evil-like things, but doesn't really say whether they're "good" or "evil". Antagonist clearly says they are working againt the protagonist(s) (in this case John, or humanity in general), which they clearly are not. [[User talk:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:17, 15 January 2012 (EST) | |||
'''''Quote''':'' "“What ONI is trying to accomplish is actually very smart.” | |||
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I’ll disect the link you posted. It is everything BUT smart. | |||
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“The only antagonists among ONI are Section III. Section I and II have jobs that are vital to humanity’s survival – Section I is essentially espionage and counter-espionage, which is an absolute necessity in a post-war universe where Insurrectionists with UNSC secrets could sell them to Brutes or Jackals.” | |||
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Yes selling vital secrets to the crippled Brutes that have now resorted to in-fighting amongst themselves and being the victems of a xenocide by the Elites is totally dangerous…./sarcasm. The Jackals have sh*t ships to begin with. They also actually ENJOYED trading with humans DURING the war. without any pressure from the Covenant, Jackals are not a threat to humanity as a whole. Most just turned back to their natural state of being pirates, merchants, and traders. | |||
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“Section II may deal with propaganda, but that in itself does not a villain make – the Allies pumped a constant stream of it during World War II, and most countries continue to. The modern US Military cooperates with Hollywood productions because depicting their personnel and machines is good advertising. After Top Gun, recruitment figures for the Navy jumped. They also have very good reasons not to let people know that Spartans can be killed. During World War II, US comics had superheroes fighting Nazis long before they actually entered the war. Now, imagine that your country is fighting Nazi Germany, is losing, and that these superheroes are real. It would be a major morale boost – hence declassifying them. But you completely lose the effect that has if you also tell people that, sorry, they’re weak against Kryptonite. Everybody uses propaganda – it only becomes a Repugnant and Terribly Unconscionable Thing when it’s done by the “enemy”.” | |||
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True, but propaganda isn’t really the problem with ONI at all. That is something they NEED to have a chance against extinction. However, starting a pointless war/xenocide is not. | |||
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“At the same time, Section III’s NavSpecWar and NavSpecWep departments have done the bulk of ONIs immoral actions that we’ve seen so far – NavSpecWep with the SPARTAN-II and -III Programs, and NavSpecWar with their covert warfare against their ostensible “ally” the Sangheili. But, again, they were semi-justified for their ends, if not their means – savin humanity. The SPARTAN-II Program was meant to shut down an Insurrection that could see human-occupied space turn upon itself, colony against colony, an escalating war for territorial and ideological dominance that the UNSC wanted to stop… by imposing their own ideology.” | |||
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Figures were done by a leading scientist in the Halo universe about the Insurrection. The results were not good. Basically the shattering of the UEG/UNSC and the beginning of conflict again after 300 or so years of peace. F*ck yeah it’s reasonable to make a small group of covert super-soldiers to quell the rebellion and maintain peace. BTW, the “ideology” that they are imposing kept a multi-system human race at total peace for 300 years or so. Then some people decide they have authority issues and start doing bombings killing innocent civilians. Hmmmm, which ideology should we choose? The one that kept mankind at peace for 300+ years? Or the one that blows up random civillians and denied any chance for diplomatic solution? Tough question. | |||
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“The SPARTAN-III Program was meant to buy humanity time. And it worked. Yes, it saw the deaths of hundreds of supersoldiers, but never needlessly. The operations they engaged in distracted or tied up the Covenant for months, months that the rest of humanity needed.” | |||
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^ acts as if S-IIs weren’t needed to keep the peace. And if you get into an ethics debate, abducting 75 children and making them the best of humanity with the highest survival rate in TWO wars is >>>> in ethics compared to asking 4 year olds if they want to fight monsters (and at that age they have no concept of what that really entails) then training them to die on suicide missions at the age of 12-14 at hundreds at a time. | |||
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“And the operations against the Sangheili are also justified – after fighting nearly thirty years against them for survival, humanity understandably is not eager to see them build up their strength. Likewise, the Sangheili resent humanity’s tenacity and creativity, and see us as a threat. Yes, they helped each other destroy the Covenant – but now that the Prophets have disappeared and the remainder of the Covenant have fallen apart, that doesn’t mean anything anymore. They don’t “owe” each other anything. Whoever wins the power struggles of Sanghelios, humanity will be able to take advantage of things. Parangosky is funding the rebels to destabilise the status quo – if the rebels win, the Sangheili are weakened by conflict and political turmoil, humanity have valuable intelligence and contacts and are in a position of strength. If the Arbiter’s faction wins, the Sangheili still resent the hell out of humanity, but are held back by the Arbiter and Hood’s negotiations, and humanity gain valuable intelligence and contacts and are in a position of strength. Whichever side wins, humanity comes out on top. It’s a very interesting Xanatos Gambit – whatever happens, humanity comes out stronger. ” | |||
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And then we become no better than the enemy. WHY NOT F*CKING ARM THE ELITES THAT ARE ON OUR SIDE?!?! Nope, we will arm the Elites that want to f*cking kill us, and CAN TURN THE ENTIRE SPECIES AGAINST US by pointing and saying “Hey! Humanity gave us these weapons so we could kill eachother! They are all scum, so let’s band together and kill these backstabbers!” What ONI SHOULD have done is give the Elites that ALREADY like us weapons to help fight the rebels, showing that we aren’t a species of douches. | |||
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At this point in the Halo universe my favorite race is the Grunts (I’m being 100% honest). They have put up with so much shit, and if trained, motivated, educated, and equipped, they would be more effective soldiers than the average human. | |||
-" Endquote '''[[User:Vegerot|<font color="blue">('''or so it says in the sacred caves''')</font> Vegerot!]]''''' 19:15, 21 February 2012 (EST)! | |||
== Section One == | |||
I'm surprised we do not put more information about them in the article. They are probably the biggest part of ONI, think of all the things they've done. They're the ones who've gathered the information about the Covenant, they are the ones who scavenged the data found on Installation 04, they found Installation 03they were even the ones who spoke with Chakas on Installation 07! We should put information on what they've done, and that they've discovered Installation 03, etc. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[File:Icon-Vegito2.gif|21px]] [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 19:46, 14 January 2012 (EST)! | |||
:I plan on doing it once I get Primordium.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} | |||
::Not even talking about Primordium, they've done so many other things as well. Which is why I say they're the biggest part of ONI. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[File:Icon-Vegito2.gif|21px]] [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 20:56, 14 January 2012 (EST)! | |||