Editing Talk:Marcus Stacker
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:::''"we don't even have any evidence that Stacker was present on Installation 04 in the first place"'' - Yes we do. The CE character was named Stacker by Bungie, and since it is possible for this Stacker to appear (with his voice and face) in two campaign levels, we have evidence that Stacker was present on Installation 04. | :::''"we don't even have any evidence that Stacker was present on Installation 04 in the first place"'' - Yes we do. The CE character was named Stacker by Bungie, and since it is possible for this Stacker to appear (with his voice and face) in two campaign levels, we have evidence that Stacker was present on Installation 04. | ||
:::The decision to ''judge his possible appearances as non-canon'' has huge implications in our Canon | :::The decision to ''judge his possible appearances as non-canon'' has huge implications in our Canon Policy and how we present canon information we get from games. It cannot be taken so lightly, because it would affect how we extract canon information from gameplay. I know this was based on a conversations on Discord, and we need to hear opinions from other members. —<span style="font-family: Eurostile;">'''[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:#000;">SPARTAN</span>]][[User talk:Spartan331|<span style="color:#888;">331</span>]]'''</span> 05:35, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
:::: Of course we don't only use in-universe sources, I never implied that. And I would hold that the source you linked isn't evidence to suggest any in-universe name is intended, rather just nicknaming him after his Voice Actor. "Voice of the Grunt" and "Voice of Sarge" don't exactly indicate a strict format to those outtake labels. Here's an incredibly similar source where a Bungie employee refers to Sergeant Banks as "Sergeant Jones" for example despite calling other characters by their in-universe names: http://nikon.bungie.org/misc/voices.html | :::: Of course we don't only use in-universe sources, I never implied that. And I would hold that the source you linked isn't evidence to suggest any in-universe name is intended, rather just nicknaming him after his Voice Actor. "Voice of the Grunt" and "Voice of Sarge" don't exactly indicate a strict format to those outtake labels. Here's an incredibly similar source where a Bungie employee refers to Sergeant Banks as "Sergeant Jones" for example despite calling other characters by their in-universe names: http://nikon.bungie.org/misc/voices.html | ||
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:::::”And I would hold that the source you linked isn't evidence to suggest any in-universe name is intended, rather just nicknaming him after his Voice Actor.” - Except you shouldn’t, because all of the other video have names which tied the ‘’’established names’’’ of in-universe characters to their voice actors (Cortana to Jen Taylor, McKaige to Dubbo, Wicklund to Jenkins, Diaz to Mendoza). In fact, this might be the only place where Wicklund is credited for playing Jenkins. You are saying that information (which also contains ‘’working titles/names’’, as in not-yet finalised names for characters who haven’t been named in 2001, such as [[Samuel Marcus]] as “Cryp Tech”) posted on HBO by a Bungie employee in 2001 cannot be overwritten by information (most rote recently updated ones) on Bungie.net, posted by a Bungie employee in 2007. That’s ridiculous. | :::::”And I would hold that the source you linked isn't evidence to suggest any in-universe name is intended, rather just nicknaming him after his Voice Actor.” - Except you shouldn’t, because all of the other video have names which tied the ‘’’established names’’’ of in-universe characters to their voice actors (Cortana to Jen Taylor, McKaige to Dubbo, Wicklund to Jenkins, Diaz to Mendoza). In fact, this might be the only place where Wicklund is credited for playing Jenkins. You are saying that information (which also contains ‘’working titles/names’’, as in not-yet finalised names for characters who haven’t been named in 2001, such as [[Samuel Marcus]] as “Cryp Tech”) posted on HBO by a Bungie employee in 2001 cannot be overwritten by information (most rote recently updated ones) on Bungie.net, posted by a Bungie employee in 2007. That’s ridiculous. | ||
:::::Your entire argument hinges on the fact that CE Stacker wasn’t named in the game files or dialogue. Except isn’t the first time we have had in-game characters named retroactively outside of the retail game: [[Parker]], [[Waller]], [[Zuka Zamamee]], [[Ardo 'Moretumee]], [[ | :::::Your entire argument hinges on the fact that CE Stacker wasn’t named in the game files or dialogue. Except isn’t the first time we have had in-game characters named retroactively outside of the retail game: [[Parker]], [[Waller]], [[Zuka Zamamee]], [[Ardo 'Moretumee]], [[Thrallslayer]], [[Cethegus]]. And once again, just because the perfect Stacker (correct face and appearance) can’t spawn on some play through, doesn’t mean we can ignore the cases where the perfect Stacker ‘’does’’ spawn (this making a canon appearance). | ||
:::::I think we’ve both made our cases. I’ll go ahead and make it a proper vote and proposal. —<span style="font-family: Eurostile;">'''[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:#000;">SPARTAN</span>]][[User talk:Spartan331|<span style="color:#888;">331</span>]]'''</span> 09:07, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | :::::I think we’ve both made our cases. I’ll go ahead and make it a proper vote and proposal. —<span style="font-family: Eurostile;">'''[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:#000;">SPARTAN</span>]][[User talk:Spartan331|<span style="color:#888;">331</span>]]'''</span> 09:07, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
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*{{Support}} [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 18:01, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | *{{Support}} [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 18:01, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
*{{Support}} Given Bungie clearly intend it to be the same character (dubious canonicity/ easter egg status and all). This support is with the proviso that we just dubcanon the section regarding Installation 04, and add a production notes section explaining everything. Any "Unnamed marine sergeant" page that may hypothetically be made I wouldn't class as noteworthy enough for a full page IMO, so I'd rather keep the info here. But once again this is with the assumption we add a | *{{Support}} Given Bungie clearly intend it to be the same character (dubious canonicity/ easter egg status and all). This support is with the proviso that we just dubcanon the section regarding Installation 04, and add a production notes section explaining everything. Any "Unnamed marine sergeant" page that may hypothetically be made I wouldn't class as noteworthy enough for a full page IMO, so I'd rather keep the info here. But once again this is with the assumption we add a semicanon notice to the relevant information. I'd rather just give the reader ''all'' of the information, properly explain it all then let them decide what approach makes sense. [[User:BaconShelf|BaconShelf]] ([[User talk:BaconShelf|talk]]) 19:02, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
::Absolutely. The info has to be mentioned here. Just not unambiguously in the biography section.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 19:24, March 26, 2020 (EDT)TheEld | ::Absolutely. The info has to be mentioned here. Just not unambiguously in the biography section.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 19:24, March 26, 2020 (EDT)TheEld | ||
:: Part of my argument is that the CE Marine Sergeant doesn't even have a strong case to be considered an individual character in his own right. He already represents two other Marines as well as his (hypothetical) self. I find it incredibly dubious that it was ever intended to represent one in-universe character. Even ''before'' The Flood, this guy is scripted to die in Silent Chartographer. To be clear, my proposal would still give the reader all information, just not in the in-universe Biography section. [[User:JiMMyPaZ|JiMMyPaZ]] ([[User talk:JiMMyPaZ|talk]]) 19:31, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | :: Part of my argument is that the CE Marine Sergeant doesn't even have a strong case to be considered an individual character in his own right. He already represents two other Marines as well as his (hypothetical) self. I find it incredibly dubious that it was ever intended to represent one in-universe character. Even ''before'' The Flood, this guy is scripted to die in Silent Chartographer. To be clear, my proposal would still give the reader all information, just not in the in-universe Biography section. [[User:JiMMyPaZ|JiMMyPaZ]] ([[User talk:JiMMyPaZ|talk]]) 19:31, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
===Neutral=== | ===Neutral=== | ||
===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
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:::: As I've mentioned before, canon involvement shouldn't be based solely on guaranteed spawn of the perfect appearance and scripted dialogue. Whilst those serve as very solid evidence of their appearance with specific actions at a specific event, random spawns are still very much evidence for their involvement and presence in the event. There's a hierarchy of evidence in all of this: scripted dialogue (e.g. pretty much every scripted dialogue from Dubbo, who changes his appearance a lot, but scripted dialogue confirms his appearance), named appearance (e.g. Reynolds in ''Sierra 117''), and possible appearances (e.g. Banks in ''Regret'', random marines/troopers in ''New Alexandria'' side objectives). Unless these possible appearances are overwritten by other sources, they stand as solid evidence for the existence and presence of these characters during the fictional events. To what extent? We don't know. But we can't judge these evidence as "not canon" simply because sometimes the computer's randomness didn't perfectly produce the appearance. —<span style="font-family: Eurostile;">'''[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:#000;">SPARTAN</span>]][[User talk:Spartan331|<span style="color:#888;">331</span>]]'''</span> 03:47, March 27, 2020 (EDT) | :::: As I've mentioned before, canon involvement shouldn't be based solely on guaranteed spawn of the perfect appearance and scripted dialogue. Whilst those serve as very solid evidence of their appearance with specific actions at a specific event, random spawns are still very much evidence for their involvement and presence in the event. There's a hierarchy of evidence in all of this: scripted dialogue (e.g. pretty much every scripted dialogue from Dubbo, who changes his appearance a lot, but scripted dialogue confirms his appearance), named appearance (e.g. Reynolds in ''Sierra 117''), and possible appearances (e.g. Banks in ''Regret'', random marines/troopers in ''New Alexandria'' side objectives). Unless these possible appearances are overwritten by other sources, they stand as solid evidence for the existence and presence of these characters during the fictional events. To what extent? We don't know. But we can't judge these evidence as "not canon" simply because sometimes the computer's randomness didn't perfectly produce the appearance. —<span style="font-family: Eurostile;">'''[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:#000;">SPARTAN</span>]][[User talk:Spartan331|<span style="color:#888;">331</span>]]'''</span> 03:47, March 27, 2020 (EDT) | ||
*{{oppose}} For reasons outlined in OP. We don't even have enough evidence to consider CE's Sarge2 a single in-universe character. He already represents two other characters in his scripted ''The Silent Cartographer'' appearance and his possible ''Assault on the Control Room'' appearance. Even pre-Halo: The Flood, he is scripted to die during the Silent Cartographer mission. To claim that Marcus P. Stacker from the later games appeared in Halo CE would be at risk of making a False Positive. Avoiding a definitive claim as to his appearance risks a True Negative, which is preferable. [[User:JiMMyPaZ|JiMMyPaZ]] ([[User talk:JiMMyPaZ|talk]]) 18:04, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | *{{oppose}} For reasons outlined in OP. We don't even have enough evidence to consider CE's Sarge2 a single in-universe character. He already represents two other characters in his scripted ''The Silent Cartographer'' appearance and his possible ''Assault on the Control Room'' appearance. Even pre-Halo: The Flood, he is scripted to die during the Silent Cartographer mission. To claim that Marcus P. Stacker from the later games appeared in Halo CE would be at risk of making a False Positive. Avoiding a definitive claim as to his appearance risks a True Negative, which is preferable. [[User:JiMMyPaZ|JiMMyPaZ]] ([[User talk:JiMMyPaZ|talk]]) 18:04, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
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:::: I maintain that it's most likely referring to the gameplay model only. The model depicted is ''scripted'' to die in ''The Silent Cartographer'' yet still has a chance to appear in later missions. It even has a different voice if it spawns on ''Assault on the Control Room''. Would you agree that Bungie didn't intend for the "Sergeant Stacker" model to represent a single in-universe character, but multiple different people ScaleMaster117? [[User:JiMMyPaZ|JiMMyPaZ]] ([[User talk:JiMMyPaZ|talk]]) 23:34, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | :::: I maintain that it's most likely referring to the gameplay model only. The model depicted is ''scripted'' to die in ''The Silent Cartographer'' yet still has a chance to appear in later missions. It even has a different voice if it spawns on ''Assault on the Control Room''. Would you agree that Bungie didn't intend for the "Sergeant Stacker" model to represent a single in-universe character, but multiple different people ScaleMaster117? [[User:JiMMyPaZ|JiMMyPaZ]] ([[User talk:JiMMyPaZ|talk]]) 23:34, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||