Editing Talk:Marcus Stacker
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:::''"we don't even have any evidence that Stacker was present on Installation 04 in the first place"'' - Yes we do. The CE character was named Stacker by Bungie, and since it is possible for this Stacker to appear (with his voice and face) in two campaign levels, we have evidence that Stacker was present on Installation 04. | :::''"we don't even have any evidence that Stacker was present on Installation 04 in the first place"'' - Yes we do. The CE character was named Stacker by Bungie, and since it is possible for this Stacker to appear (with his voice and face) in two campaign levels, we have evidence that Stacker was present on Installation 04. | ||
:::The decision to ''judge his possible appearances as non-canon'' has huge implications in our Canon | :::The decision to ''judge his possible appearances as non-canon'' has huge implications in our Canon Policy and how we present canon information we get from games. It cannot be taken so lightly, because it would affect how we extract canon information from gameplay. I know this was based on a conversations on Discord, and we need to hear opinions from other members. —<span style="font-family: Eurostile;">'''[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:#000;">SPARTAN</span>]][[User talk:Spartan331|<span style="color:#888;">331</span>]]'''</span> 05:35, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
:::: Of course we don't only use in-universe sources, I never implied that. And I would hold that the source you linked isn't evidence to suggest any in-universe name is intended, rather just nicknaming him after his Voice Actor. "Voice of the Grunt" and "Voice of Sarge" don't exactly indicate a strict format to those outtake labels. Here's an incredibly similar source where a Bungie employee refers to Sergeant Banks as "Sergeant Jones" for example despite calling other characters by their in-universe names: http://nikon.bungie.org/misc/voices.html | :::: Of course we don't only use in-universe sources, I never implied that. And I would hold that the source you linked isn't evidence to suggest any in-universe name is intended, rather just nicknaming him after his Voice Actor. "Voice of the Grunt" and "Voice of Sarge" don't exactly indicate a strict format to those outtake labels. Here's an incredibly similar source where a Bungie employee refers to Sergeant Banks as "Sergeant Jones" for example despite calling other characters by their in-universe names: http://nikon.bungie.org/misc/voices.html | ||
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:::::”And I would hold that the source you linked isn't evidence to suggest any in-universe name is intended, rather just nicknaming him after his Voice Actor.” - Except you shouldn’t, because all of the other video have names which tied the ‘’’established names’’’ of in-universe characters to their voice actors (Cortana to Jen Taylor, McKaige to Dubbo, Wicklund to Jenkins, Diaz to Mendoza). In fact, this might be the only place where Wicklund is credited for playing Jenkins. You are saying that information (which also contains ‘’working titles/names’’, as in not-yet finalised names for characters who haven’t been named in 2001, such as [[Samuel Marcus]] as “Cryp Tech”) posted on HBO by a Bungie employee in 2001 cannot be overwritten by information (most rote recently updated ones) on Bungie.net, posted by a Bungie employee in 2007. That’s ridiculous. | :::::”And I would hold that the source you linked isn't evidence to suggest any in-universe name is intended, rather just nicknaming him after his Voice Actor.” - Except you shouldn’t, because all of the other video have names which tied the ‘’’established names’’’ of in-universe characters to their voice actors (Cortana to Jen Taylor, McKaige to Dubbo, Wicklund to Jenkins, Diaz to Mendoza). In fact, this might be the only place where Wicklund is credited for playing Jenkins. You are saying that information (which also contains ‘’working titles/names’’, as in not-yet finalised names for characters who haven’t been named in 2001, such as [[Samuel Marcus]] as “Cryp Tech”) posted on HBO by a Bungie employee in 2001 cannot be overwritten by information (most rote recently updated ones) on Bungie.net, posted by a Bungie employee in 2007. That’s ridiculous. | ||
:::::Your entire argument hinges on the fact that CE Stacker wasn’t named in the game files or dialogue. Except isn’t the first time we have had in-game characters named retroactively outside of the retail game: [[Parker]], [[Waller]], [[Zuka Zamamee]], [[Ardo 'Moretumee]], [[ | :::::Your entire argument hinges on the fact that CE Stacker wasn’t named in the game files or dialogue. Except isn’t the first time we have had in-game characters named retroactively outside of the retail game: [[Parker]], [[Waller]], [[Zuka Zamamee]], [[Ardo 'Moretumee]], [[Thrallslayer]], [[Cethegus]]. And once again, just because the perfect Stacker (correct face and appearance) can’t spawn on some play through, doesn’t mean we can ignore the cases where the perfect Stacker ‘’does’’ spawn (this making a canon appearance). | ||
:::::I think we’ve both made our cases. I’ll go ahead and make it a proper vote and proposal. —<span style="font-family: Eurostile;">'''[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:#000;">SPARTAN</span>]][[User talk:Spartan331|<span style="color:#888;">331</span>]]'''</span> 09:07, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | :::::I think we’ve both made our cases. I’ll go ahead and make it a proper vote and proposal. —<span style="font-family: Eurostile;">'''[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:#000;">SPARTAN</span>]][[User talk:Spartan331|<span style="color:#888;">331</span>]]'''</span> 09:07, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
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*{{Support}} [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 18:01, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | *{{Support}} [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 18:01, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
*{{Support}} Given Bungie clearly intend it to be the same character (dubious canonicity/ easter egg status and all). This support is with the proviso that we just dubcanon the section regarding Installation 04, and add a production notes section explaining everything. Any "Unnamed marine sergeant" page that may hypothetically be made I wouldn't class as noteworthy enough for a full page IMO, so I'd rather keep the info here. But once again this is with the assumption we add a | *{{Support}} Given Bungie clearly intend it to be the same character (dubious canonicity/ easter egg status and all). This support is with the proviso that we just dubcanon the section regarding Installation 04, and add a production notes section explaining everything. Any "Unnamed marine sergeant" page that may hypothetically be made I wouldn't class as noteworthy enough for a full page IMO, so I'd rather keep the info here. But once again this is with the assumption we add a semicanon notice to the relevant information. I'd rather just give the reader ''all'' of the information, properly explain it all then let them decide what approach makes sense. [[User:BaconShelf|BaconShelf]] ([[User talk:BaconShelf|talk]]) 19:02, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
::Absolutely. The info has to be mentioned here. Just not unambiguously in the biography section.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 19:24, March 26, 2020 (EDT)TheEld | ::Absolutely. The info has to be mentioned here. Just not unambiguously in the biography section.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 19:24, March 26, 2020 (EDT)TheEld | ||
:: Part of my argument is that the CE Marine Sergeant doesn't even have a strong case to be considered an individual character in his own right. He already represents two other Marines as well as his (hypothetical) self. I find it incredibly dubious that it was ever intended to represent one in-universe character. Even ''before'' The Flood, this guy is scripted to die in Silent Chartographer. To be clear, my proposal would still give the reader all information, just not in the in-universe Biography section. [[User:JiMMyPaZ|JiMMyPaZ]] ([[User talk:JiMMyPaZ|talk]]) 19:31, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | :: Part of my argument is that the CE Marine Sergeant doesn't even have a strong case to be considered an individual character in his own right. He already represents two other Marines as well as his (hypothetical) self. I find it incredibly dubious that it was ever intended to represent one in-universe character. Even ''before'' The Flood, this guy is scripted to die in Silent Chartographer. To be clear, my proposal would still give the reader all information, just not in the in-universe Biography section. [[User:JiMMyPaZ|JiMMyPaZ]] ([[User talk:JiMMyPaZ|talk]]) 19:31, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
===Neutral=== | ===Neutral=== | ||
===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
*{{Oppose}} Whether or not there was some random guy named Stacker present on Alpha Halo is irrelevent. We know this cannot be the same person as the character in ''Halo 2''. Retroactively naming the marine Pete Stacker voiced in ''Combat Evolved'' makes the appearances in that game at best Easter eggs akin to the Grunt you can talk to at the end of ''Halo 3''. The biggest problem I see here is the way people are treating ''Combat Evolved''. We don't have to dither over which aspects of gameplay and level design are canon (*cough* end Warthog run *cough*) because we have ''[[Halo: The Flood]]'' to give us the definitive version of events as they canonically happened. [[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 16:05, March 26, 2020 (EDT)TheEld | *{{Oppose}} Whether or not there was some random guy named Stacker present on Alpha Halo is irrelevent. We know this cannot be the same person as the character in ''Halo 2''. Retroactively naming the marine Pete Stacker voiced in ''Combat Evolved'' makes the appearances in that game at best Easter eggs akin to the Grunt you can talk to at the end of ''Halo 3''. The biggest problem I see here is the way people are treating ''Combat Evolved''. We don't have to dither over which aspects of gameplay and level design are canon (*cough* end Warthog run *cough*) because we have ''[[Halo: The Flood]]'' to give us the definitive version of events as they canonically happened. [[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 16:05, March 26, 2020 (EDT)TheEld | ||
:The case of Warthog Run isn’t a good comparison here though. We don’t consider the length of PoA based on the the Warthog Run - a “canon” information from gameplay - because it contradicts with other established sources. Stacker’s involvement in the Battle of Installation 04 (per his appearances in “Halo” and “Assault on the Control Room”) - a canon information from gameplay - was not contradicted by other sources. Unless we have more information on the marines who participated in the events of those two levels, we can’t ignore the fact that CE Stacker had made an appearance in CE and thus participated in the Battle of Installation 04.—<span style="font-family: Eurostile;">'''[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:#000;">SPARTAN</span>]][[User talk:Spartan331|<span style="color:#888;">331</span>]]'''</span> 20:20, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | |||
*{{Oppose}} To be perfectly candid, I like the notion of Stacker having been at Installation 04, and I would like it if it were to be established as canonical fact in future. However, as it currently stands, we don't actually have any canonical evidence linking Sergeant Marcus Stacker to any of the appearances, scripted or otherwise, of Pete Stacker's Sergeant in ''Halo: CE''. In fact, ''Halo: The Flood'' gives a different name to the only scripted appearance (that I'm aware of) of the Sergeant he voices - Waller. We can concretely identify the Marine who leads John to Keyes on the Pillar of Autumn as Chips Dubbo because the CE credits call him that, and ''The Flood'' doesn't overwrite it. However, in Stacker's case, nothing concrete has ever linked him to the events in ''CE'', and even if it had, it's since been overwritten by ''The Flood''. In short, we cannot conclude that he was at Installation 04 at this time. {{User:Dab1001/Sig2}} 17:56, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | *{{Oppose}} To be perfectly candid, I like the notion of Stacker having been at Installation 04, and I would like it if it were to be established as canonical fact in future. However, as it currently stands, we don't actually have any canonical evidence linking Sergeant Marcus Stacker to any of the appearances, scripted or otherwise, of Pete Stacker's Sergeant in ''Halo: CE''. In fact, ''Halo: The Flood'' gives a different name to the only scripted appearance (that I'm aware of) of the Sergeant he voices - Waller. We can concretely identify the Marine who leads John to Keyes on the Pillar of Autumn as Chips Dubbo because the CE credits call him that, and ''The Flood'' doesn't overwrite it. However, in Stacker's case, nothing concrete has ever linked him to the events in ''CE'', and even if it had, it's since been overwritten by ''The Flood''. In short, we cannot conclude that he was at Installation 04 at this time. {{User:Dab1001/Sig2}} 17:56, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
:”Halo: The Flood” doesn’t overwrite the appearances he makes in the campaign levels “Halo” and “Assault on the Control Room”. —<span style="font-family: Eurostile;">'''[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:#000;">SPARTAN</span>]][[User talk:Spartan331|<span style="color:#888;">331</span>]]'''</span> 20:20, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:: | :: The CE Sergeant spawn on ''Halo'' isn't guaranteed, and has no scripted dialogue. The CE Sergeant spawn on ''Assault on the Control Room'' isn't guaranteed, isn't voiced by Pete Stacker, and has no scripted dialogue. [[User:JiMMyPaZ|JiMMyPaZ]] ([[User talk:JiMMyPaZ|talk]]) 22:05, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
*{{oppose}} For reasons outlined in OP. We don't even have enough evidence to consider CE's Sarge2 a single in-universe character. He already represents two other characters in his scripted ''The Silent Cartographer'' appearance and his possible ''Assault on the Control Room'' appearance. Even pre-Halo: The Flood, he is scripted to die during the Silent Cartographer mission. To claim that Marcus P. Stacker from the later games appeared in Halo CE would be at risk of making a False Positive. Avoiding a definitive claim as to his appearance risks a True Negative, which is preferable. [[User:JiMMyPaZ|JiMMyPaZ]] ([[User talk:JiMMyPaZ|talk]]) 18:04, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | *{{oppose}} For reasons outlined in OP. We don't even have enough evidence to consider CE's Sarge2 a single in-universe character. He already represents two other characters in his scripted ''The Silent Cartographer'' appearance and his possible ''Assault on the Control Room'' appearance. Even pre-Halo: The Flood, he is scripted to die during the Silent Cartographer mission. To claim that Marcus P. Stacker from the later games appeared in Halo CE would be at risk of making a False Positive. Avoiding a definitive claim as to his appearance risks a True Negative, which is preferable. [[User:JiMMyPaZ|JiMMyPaZ]] ([[User talk:JiMMyPaZ|talk]]) 18:04, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||
*{{Oppose}} The reasoning outlined withing the OP is enough to back the claim that Marcus Stacker wasn't in CE but is fully canon due to appearances within Reach as a Firefight voice for the player during game play. He was placed within New Alexandria to fight and support evacuation efforts this makes the theory of him being able to board the Pillar of Autumn dubious at best due to his primary order to mass evacuate civilians. His canonicity is confirmed via Halo 4 and via Reach. The Marine Sergeants model being informally mentioned as Sergeant Stacker is not viable evidence to connect it to Marcus Stacker, they refer to other characters within the games by the surname of the voice actor frequently. The Marine Sergeant model who may or may not spawn with Stacker's voice within ''Halo: Combat Evolved'' should be considered a purely gameplay character, as his only lines are dynamic combat dialogue. If that were to be taken as canon, the wiki would need thousands of more pages for marines with the same voice actors who are clearly not intended to be canon characters. The existence of Gunnery Sergeant Waller in ''Halo The Flood'' is enough to show that the CE Sergeant wasn't considered one canon character by bungie. With Bungie's addition of Gunnery Sergeant Stacker to Reach, it's much more likely Marcus Stacker was headed to Earth after finishing the evacuations on Reach, and never aboard the Pillar of Autumn.[[User:Cryingdeath x|Cryingdeath x]] ([[User talk:Cryingdeath x|talk]]) 21:34, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | *{{Oppose}} The reasoning outlined withing the OP is enough to back the claim that Marcus Stacker wasn't in CE but is fully canon due to appearances within Reach as a Firefight voice for the player during game play. He was placed within New Alexandria to fight and support evacuation efforts this makes the theory of him being able to board the Pillar of Autumn dubious at best due to his primary order to mass evacuate civilians. His canonicity is confirmed via Halo 4 and via Reach. The Marine Sergeants model being informally mentioned as Sergeant Stacker is not viable evidence to connect it to Marcus Stacker, they refer to other characters within the games by the surname of the voice actor frequently. The Marine Sergeant model who may or may not spawn with Stacker's voice within ''Halo: Combat Evolved'' should be considered a purely gameplay character, as his only lines are dynamic combat dialogue. If that were to be taken as canon, the wiki would need thousands of more pages for marines with the same voice actors who are clearly not intended to be canon characters. The existence of Gunnery Sergeant Waller in ''Halo The Flood'' is enough to show that the CE Sergeant wasn't considered one canon character by bungie. With Bungie's addition of Gunnery Sergeant Stacker to Reach, it's much more likely Marcus Stacker was headed to Earth after finishing the evacuations on Reach, and never aboard the Pillar of Autumn.[[User:Cryingdeath x|Cryingdeath x]] ([[User talk:Cryingdeath x|talk]]) 21:34, March 26, 2020 (EDT) | ||