Editing Talk:Kurt Ambrose

==Link?==
Why the Amazon link ???--[[User:Climax Viod|Climax Viod]] 20:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
:Because if I said Ghosts of Onyx was my source before it was out, I was afraid it would be considered fanfiction. This skips a step, brings the user to the excerpt. --[[User:Dragonclaws|Dragonclaws]] 21:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

is he in ghosts of onyx then ?--[[User:Climax Viod|Climax Viod]] 21:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

:Yes, that's why I linked to an excerpt from it. It's trustworthy, Louis Wu linked to it. --[[User:Dragonclaws|Dragonclaws]] 21:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

==Scout?==
i thought he died in first strike wasnt he a scout ? --[[User:Climax Viod|Climax Viod]] 22:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
:That was SPARTAN-044 -[[User:ED|ED]] 22:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

==Sigma Octanus?==
:How Did he participate in the Battle of Sigma Octanus 4? Wasn't he missing aready in 2531, how can he participate in 2552? Shouldn't he be training Gamma Company?

::That is probably an assumption, which should be removed. -[[User:ED|ED]] 21:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

== Kurt and The Elite ==

I put in some more information about what happened between Kurt and the Elite, Why was it removed D: --[[User:Brave Moonlight|Brave Moonlight]] 07:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Like what?[[User:Master Chief Petty Officer|'''ΜΆŜΤΈŖČΗέÏΣΡΈΤΤΥОΓΓïČëŗ''']]

look in the history, I added a little more of their conversation including of what the Elite said :S
--[[User:Brave Moonlight|Brave Moonlight]] 23:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I stand at neutural. It's pretty good, but yet the image is seemingly fan fic in my opinion, I've never seen it.[[User:Master Chief Petty Officer|'''ΜΆŜΤΈŖČΗέÏΣΡΈΤΤΥОΓΓïČëŗ''']] 12:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

... uhmmm.. what?
--[[User:Brave Moonlight|Brave Moonlight]] 00:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

This article is enough of a mess. This is meant to inform, not to weave tales. It doesn't matter how "cleverly" you can interpret the events in the novels--if it's not needed, it's not needed. Information should be delivered in a concise manner, covering only the key points necessary to understand the material. Unless it's required, dialogue should be omitted. End of story. If you want to write fanfic, find another outlet in which to do so. [[User talk:CipherCero|CipherCero]] 00:55, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

:It's also generally best to be current and not respond to things that are almost three years gone... As for fanfiction, there is a whole wikia devoted to [http://halofanon.wikia.com Halo fanfiction] for you to do what you want. --[[User:Maslab|Do not insult me.]] 00:58, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

== Kurt's death ==

In Ghosts of Onyx, at around the ending, Kurt was almost killed by snipers and a Hunter, and yet they didn't finish him off. Why? In the book they said the hunters were given orders by Voro, but then it was written that the snipers were 'afraid' How is this so? -- [[User:Karzhani|Karzhani]] 09:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC), the one and only.

==Trivia==
In the travia,it saids:

''He is seen to the highest-ranking Spartan-II in the history of the Halo universe, surpassing even Chief Mendez and Master Chief''

The last time I checked,Mendez wasn't and can't be a SPARTAN-II,though he could be a SPARTAN-I,so why he is even menition,I don't know,unless the writer meant Fred.I'm going to rewrite it.[[User:SPARTAN-177|SPARTAN-177]] 22:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Kurt- 051 ==

He does not wear the SPI Armour he wears his MOLINJAR Mark 5 armor if u read the book as many times as i had u would know.

He either has Mark IV or SPI





First of all, sign your posts. Second, learn to read and write. Third, read the novels. [[User talk:CipherCero|CipherCero]] 00:57, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

:Indeed. He wears SPI. --[[User:Maslab|Do not insult me.]] 01:03, January 13, 2010 (UTC)


Hmm your both right he wears both SPI near his last stand and his other armor i forgot what is was called [[User talk:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] 05:10, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

== Kurt-051 > John-117 ==

Lol, yeah, all he would need is MJOLNIR MK VI then he would whoop his ass, due to his 'sixth sense'. --[[User:Lord Lycan|Lord Lycan]] 21:06, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Nah John would whoop Kurt's ass.

Fixed the picture; Kurt used MJOLNIR, not SPI armor.
<br />--[[User talk:117649AnnihilativeRepentance|117649AnnihilativeRepentance]] 03:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

read the armory part, he was gonna wear mk IV but decided 2 wear spi. also were does it say that the one in spi is kurt. thats never said, so it could be ash or tom.

== Fall of reach ==

<nowiki>Insert non-formatted text here</nowiki>
why wasn't he in fall of reach?
it seems kinda retarded that they could pull him out of the blue like that,i think that they should have atleast mentioned him after sam's death...of course,i still have about 50 pages left, i might be Bs'n yall right now. but i still haven't seen him.--[[User talk:Ryan-005|Ryan-005]] 03:54, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

== Kurt's Death, Cleanup Tag? ==

The part on Kurt's death seems to imply that he was nearly killed, died, did some administrative work, and then died by nuclear immolation, ''in that order''. 1)How does he die twice? 2)How did he really die?

It seems to me that a cleanup tag should be added to this article in order to bring about some clarification. I do not own any of the novels, or I would try clarifying it myself. -- [[User talk:Nutarama|Nutarama]] 01:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the Halo Wiki's policy is, but why are we suddenly allowing fan art to be included as source material? I'm asking in reference to the "death scene" that's been posted in the article. I'm aware that the wiki is fan-based but that doesn't mean we should be accepting fan material just because somebody might think it looks cool.

:@Nuturama: He almost died by being blown off in to space due to a "malfunction" of a jetpack, and he was killed when he set off two nukes in a pack on his back, killing thousands of Covenant foot soldiers in the process.

@Whoever that is directly above me: The admins all looked it over and decided that the fan drawn scene was canonically accurate. The picture itself is not canon. --[[User:Maslab|Do not insult me.]] 00:45, January 13, 2010 (UTC)



==Ambrose?==

His last name isnt Ambrose but BUT Ackerson did give it to him but its not his real last name [[User talk:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] 05:12, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

:We know this.  What's your point? --[[User:Maslab|Do not insult me.]] 05:25, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

== Letter from Kurt ==

The Halo: Reach website has what seems to be a memo from Kurt on the Noble personnel page:  http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=personnel&cid=24040.  Has this been addressed already?

== Kurt Cobain ==
I know this sounds silly, but the fact that they have the same first name and both died, seems a little more than a coincidence to me. --[[User talk:Kluutak|Kluutak]] 04:22, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

:Using the same logic, you could argue that [[Wikipedia:Kubrat|Kubrat/Kurt]], who established Old Great Bulgaria in 632, and is likewise dead, is also related to Kurt-051. Tenuous, isn't it? -- <b>[[User:Specops306|<font color=indigo>Specops306</font>]]</b> - <sup><i><b><u>[[User Talk:Specops306|<font color=blue>Qur'a 'Morhek</font>]]</u></b></i></sup> 10:30, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

== pic ==

alright,whoever keeps reversing my edits to the main picture, stop. it is referenced in GoO that he wore gray SPI armor, so the spartan in the picture is obviously not kurt, even if the picture i used was fan art, it seems pretty accurate to me and i think others would agree. so stopp adding the green spi pic because it is not kurt-ghost mactavish



Yes, even though it is a picture of Kurt, it is NOT canon, as it is fan art (unless it has been approved by the Halo fan art committee). Fan art isn't used for the main picture and besides, the picture is in the article itself... Read here: http://halopedian.com/Halopedia:Canon_Policy [[User talk:Bottletopman|Bottletopman]] 08:24, May 21, 2010 (UTC)



it has been approved by the comittee, and where is the evidence for the pic thats being currently used, where? because it mentions in the book very clearly that his armor is gray,  not green. so the pic cannot be used as it is not kurt, and since that the fanart pic has been approved by the commitee, we should use it as it is the only pic that this wiki has of kurt. and please dont block me, i have been blocked twice on this wiki and that was because i was removing speculation. this wiki needs to stick to canon information more because there is too much speculation here[[User talk:Ghost mactavish|Ghost mactavish]] 09:51, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

:As per Ghost mactavish, the image is one of the few fan-arts Halopedia allows to in articles. Please note that the FanArt Committee is no longer active, so any future fan art submission is no longer available.- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 15:34, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

== Rank ==

Carter A-259 is in fact a Commander. Which means that Kurt and the other guy (I don't know his name) are the 2nd highest ranking SPARTANs.--"History is [[User:Bobzombie|written]] by the victor.History is filled with liars. 03:37, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

:Not really related but your sig is horrendous.- [[User:-Ascension-|<span style="font-family:Century Gothic; color:#E32636;">Sketch</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:-Ascension-|<span style="font-family:Century Gothic; color:#E32636;">ist</span>]]</sup> 04:33, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to respond to an old post, but Carter A-259 is in fact a Spartan-III.  I'm not sure what the article said when this was posted, but just to clarify it now says highest ranking Spartan-IIs. So....yeah--[[User talk:Caboose&#39;s Brother|Caboose&#39;s Brother]] 18:06, 15 February 2011 (EST)

== Kurt in Halo Reach and Birth of a spartan? ==

Will Kurt be in halo reach?

since he trained all SPARTAN-IIIs then maybe some of the spartans could get flashbacks to theyr training....

(or something like that)

And is Kurt in the live action video birth of a spartan??

some says chief mendez is the old man there but is this kurt?

Paouse at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg_A5KpZzgg

0:42

It could be Kurt since the other spartans looks younger


Kurt is dead.  It says on the armor that the young man staring at the armor is Carter.  Mendez is trapped on the Shield world. Did you read the article?--[[User talk:Caboose&#39;s Brother|Caboose&#39;s Brother]] 18:02, 15 February 2011 (EST)

== Kurt M. Trevelyan ==

I was thinking if we should renamed the article as such considering its his full name and its been proven in one of the medical folders found in [[Dr. Halsey's personal journal]]. What are your thoughts on this?--[[User talk:Ashing shot|ASEC]] 21:54, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

:I see your point, but I'm afraid not. After his abduction, he forever ceased to be Kurt M. Trevelyan. Consider the Prohet of Mercy. His birth name was Hod Rumnt, but upon becoming a hierarch he ''became'' the Prophet of Mercy. Thus, we call him by his title rather than by his actual name. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|&quot;Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson]] 03:33, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

==Change Name to "Kurt M. Trevelyan" or "Kurt Trevelyan", Whatever Suits==
I'm aware that it's posted above, but I thought I'd refresh things, make it more official. It was only today that I realized that Kurt's full name was indeed mentioned on the journal, and had I noticed earlier, I would have proposed this immediately; which technically I'm doing now, but whatever. To the point, we know Kurt's full name, one of the only Spartan-IIs to have this distinction, and I say we make use of it. There exists the argument above that Kurt Trevelyan "became" Kurt-051 in the same manner that Hod Rumnt became the Prophet of Mercy, however this is not true. The Spartans' surnames were always there, and even after being assigned their serial numbers, their surnames were still kept - heavily classified, but they still had those names, they were just covered up to make sure that the true nature of the conscription was not discovered. In short; we know his full name, why shouldn't we rename the article appropriately? - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="green">('''Talk''')</font>]] 07:08, 27 October 2010 (EDT)

===Support (1/1)===
*{{Support}} - As per above proposal. - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="green">('''Talk''')</font>]] 07:08, 27 October 2010 (EDT)

===Neutral (0/0)===
===Oppose (2/1)===
*{{Oppose}} - Fair point, but where was it said that the Spartans' surnames were really kept? I thought something like that would be effectively wiped clean when they were conscripted. The role of the person with that name would be assumed by their flash-clone, and when it died, that person, Kurt M. Trevelyan in this case, would also be officially dead while Kurt-051 would live on. Even if his original name did exist buried in a classified archive somewhere, his name was, by all intents and purposes, Kurt-051 or Kurt Ambrose for the most of his life. Even if it did exist, his "true" name would only be a technicality at best after he became a Spartan. It's not exactly a clear-cut matter, but in a case like this, I'd just use the name he's the most known for. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 07:31, 27 October 2010 (EDT)
*{{Oppose}} - As per Jugus, whom has made a fair point. - <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 10:55, 27 October 2010 (EDT)

== Fan Art pic ==

Should we keep that fan art pic of injured kurt with the zealot? I know it was "Halo FanArt Committee Approved" but i still feel it is somewhat unprofessional for a wiki to use it. It also may not accurately describe the scene 100%. The fanart on the [[Linda-058]] page was also "Halo FanArt Committee Approved" and stayed there for awhile, but I noticed that it was eventually taken down. Should the same be for this page? {{unsigned|Ender the Xenocide}}

===Support (0/0)===
===Neutral (0/0===
===Oppose (0/0===
* {{Oppose}} - The image is relatively accurate and awesome, but it is still fanon. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 17:41, 16 November 2010 (EST)

== Halsey's Journal mention ==

In the journal on the Dec 10, 2518 entry it mentions that Mendez personally thought that Kurt would be the best leader. Should I add this to the trivia?--[[User talk:Dragrath1|Dragrath1]] 18:25, 30 December 2010 (EST)
@@ Line 98: / Line 98: @@
 :We know this.  What's your point? --[[User:Maslab|Do not insult me.]] 05:25, March 24, 2010 (UTC)
-::Ok, I'm reviving this three years in the future. We now know that his last name is Trevelyan. Now that we know it, should we switch it out whenever possible? Or has he used the pseudonym long enough that we should keep it? That doesn't really make sense but I Just didn't want to do something that would have to be reversed. '''This is''' [[User:CraZboy557|<span style="color:orange; font-family: Gill Sans Ultra Bold; font-size: 110%;">'''craZboy557'''</span>]], '''signing off.''' 06:41, 28 January 2013 (EST)
-:::Ambrose is his new identity. If I were to change to my name, my passport would read that new name instead of my old name. This is the same case I suppose. —<span style="font-family: Eurostile;">'''[[User:Spartan331|<span style="color:#000;">SPARTAN</span>]][[User talk:Spartan331|<span style="color:#888;">331</span>]]'''</span> 08:39, 28 January 2013 (EST)
 == Letter from Kurt ==
@@ Line 116: / Line 114: @@
-Yes, even though it is a picture of Kurt, it is NOT canon, as it is fan art (unless it has been approved by the Halo fan art committee). Fan art isn't used for the main picture and besides, the picture is in the article itself... Read here: http://halopedian.com/Halopedia:Canon_policy [[User talk:Bottletopman|Bottletopman]] 08:24, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
+Yes, even though it is a picture of Kurt, it is NOT canon, as it is fan art (unless it has been approved by the Halo fan art committee). Fan art isn't used for the main picture and besides, the picture is in the article itself... Read here: http://halopedian.com/Halopedia:Canon_Policy [[User talk:Bottletopman|Bottletopman]] 08:24, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
@@ Line 162: / Line 160: @@
 ==Change Name to "Kurt M. Trevelyan" or "Kurt Trevelyan", Whatever Suits==
-I'm aware that it's posted above, but I thought I'd refresh things, make it more official. It was only today that I realized that Kurt's full name was indeed mentioned on the journal, and had I noticed earlier, I would have proposed this immediately; which technically I'm doing now, but whatever. To the point, we know Kurt's full name, one of the only Spartan-IIs to have this distinction, and I say we make use of it. There exists the argument above that Kurt Trevelyan "became" Kurt-051 in the same manner that Hod Rumnt became the Prophet of Mercy, however this is not true. The Spartans' surnames were always there, and even after being assigned their serial numbers, their surnames were still kept - heavily classified, but they still had those names, they were just covered up to make sure that the true nature of the conscription was not discovered. In short; we know his full name, why shouldn't we rename the article appropriately? -  [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="green">('''Talk''')</font>]] 07:08, 27 October 2010 (EDT)
+I'm aware that it's posted above, but I thought I'd refresh things, make it more official. It was only today that I realized that Kurt's full name was indeed mentioned on the journal, and had I noticed earlier, I would have proposed this immediately; which technically I'm doing now, but whatever. To the point, we know Kurt's full name, one of the only Spartan-IIs to have this distinction, and I say we make use of it. There exists the argument above that Kurt Trevelyan "became" Kurt-051 in the same manner that Hod Rumnt became the Prophet of Mercy, however this is not true. The Spartans' surnames were always there, and even after being assigned their serial numbers, their surnames were still kept - heavily classified, but they still had those names, they were just covered up to make sure that the true nature of the conscription was not discovered. In short; we know his full name, why shouldn't we rename the article appropriately? - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="green">('''Talk''')</font>]] 07:08, 27 October 2010 (EDT)
 ===Support (1/1)===
-*{{Support}} - As per above proposal. -  [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="green">('''Talk''')</font>]] 07:08, 27 October 2010 (EDT)
+*{{Support}} - As per above proposal. - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="green">('''Talk''')</font>]] 07:08, 27 October 2010 (EDT)
 ===Neutral (0/0)===
@@ Line 179: / Line 177: @@
 ===Neutral (0/0===
 ===Oppose (0/0===
-* {{Oppose}} - The image is relatively accurate and awesome, but it is still fanon. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 17:41, 16 November 2010 (EST)
+* {{Oppose}} - The image is relatively accurate and awesome, but it is still fanon. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 17:41, 16 November 2010 (EST)
 == Halsey's Journal mention ==
 In the journal on the Dec 10, 2518 entry it mentions that Mendez personally thought that Kurt would be the best leader. Should I add this to the trivia?--[[User talk:Dragrath1|Dragrath1]] 18:25, 30 December 2010 (EST)
-==Image==
-As far as I know, there hasn't been any sort of confirmation that the Spartan in the header image is Kurt. Sure, it might be him, but it might as well be any of the Spartan-IIIs who fought alongside the S-IIs just like Kurt did. However long it's been there, we shouldn't use it in this article unless it's been confirmed to be him. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 01:33, 9 May 2012 (EDT)
-==Article title==
-Since Kurt's Spartan identity was declared MIA after the Delphi incident and an all-new identity was forged for him, shouldn't this article rather be titled "Kurt Ambrose"? Unlike the article suggests, he was never known as "Lieutenant Commander Kurt-051", he was Lt. Commander Kurt Ambrose; a completely new, separate identity he used for the rest of his life. Just like Kurt M. Trevelyan eventually died with the flash-clone, Kurt-051 did, in effect, go missing in 2531.
-Similar to the point I made a couple of posts above when it was proposed we should use Kurt's original surname, we generally tend to use the most recent (in an in-universe sense) title for the subject; only in this case it isn't "Kurt-051". Case in point, there's also [[Serin Osman]] who assumed a normal identity like Kurt did. It would make sense to title this article based on the same standard. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 01:33, 9 May 2012 (EDT)
-:I was ''just about'' to add the rename template when I saw you'd beaten me to the punch. Oh well.  Anyway, I certainly agree that the page should be renamed. Like you've said, Kurt used the "Ambrose" identity for the rest of his life, just like Serin-019 became "Serin Osman". Coincidentally, the Trevelyan article now uses the "most recent in-universe name" format as well. If for no other reason, consistency among naming schemes is always good. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 11:22, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
-For those reasons, then, I'll support this. However, given as we have Serin Osman be listed on the SPARTAN-II template as "Serin-019", I recommend then that his name not be changed on it as well. Just the link. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 15:12, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
-:Of course; this only means changing his name where it's appropriate. The template can obviously stay the way it is for the sake of consistency. Likewise, since he wasn't Kurt Ambrose until after his arranged disappearance, he should be referred to as Kurt-051 or SPARTAN-051 in context of events before that point. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 15:20, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
-Fine by me if we do this. The current title has never made sense to me.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 17:47, 17 October 2012 (EDT)