Editing Talk:Jul 'Mdama's Covenant


== Jumping the gun? ==

Isn't it a bit early to claim the new Storm Grunts and Jackals are 'subspecies'? ''Artistic license'' should come into consideration here regardless of changes to how the enemies actually look. The Godzilla suit of today looks different than the ones in prior films, it's still the same character though. [[User talk:Manwiththegun|Manwiththegun]] 15:35, 13 August 2012 (EDT)

:''[http://halo.xbox.com/blogs/Headlines/post/2012/05/09/The-Halo-Bulletin-5912.aspx The Halo Bulletin 5.9.12]'' explicitly states that the new Grunts are canonically different from those in previous titles. These differences are not just real-world aesthetic changes; they actually represent another in-universe variation of the Unggoy. Indeed, the majority of the ''Bulletin'' is devoted to discussing and theorizing why the new Grunts look different from those who've come before: ''"As for how the Grunts of past Halo games and Halo 4 compare: Are they different species, a result of natural mutation, selective breeding, or genetic mutation within a single species? We’re not ready to show our cards here just yet. We can say that there are certain species on Earth which exhibit extraordinary differences within their kind (Great Dane vs. Pomeranian) and that there are vastly numerous species similar enough to categorically lump them together (look up Plover)."'' The ''Bulletin'' says that a more concrete explanation for these physical differences will be given in due time.

:The morphological variation among the Kig-Yar has been explained both [http://halo.xbox.com/en-us/Universe/Detail/the-jackals/24dc0ecc-8cf0-473a-aae3-266fe6019d61 here] and in the revised ''Encyclopedia'' as the result of divergent evolution on different moons, planetoids, and asteroids in the Y'Deio system. For example, the Skirmishers come from a satellite with higher gravity than Eayn, causing them to evolve much heavier muscles than their kin. Considering that the straight-beaked Jackals of ''Halo 2'', the slope-beaked Jackals of ''Halo 3'' through ''Anniversary'', and the dromaeosaur-like Skirmishers all belong to the same species, it isn't much of a stretch to assume that the Jackals in ''Halo 4'' represent yet another phenotype; the real-world Galapagos finches have a similar, (though less extreme), degree of morphological diversity.

:Consider society on Earth prior to the Halo Array's activation. Several distinct species and subspecies of the ''homo'' genus were all lumped together as humanity, like the aforementioned [[Wikipedia:Plover|plover]]. It is entirely possible that the Unggoy and the Kig-Yar societies are structured in a similar manner, with different species of the same genus all categorized as the same race. Overall, think of all these aesthetic changes in a Watsonian manner rather than a Doylist one. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 17:34, 13 August 2012 (EDT)

I'm interested in the idea that the variations in Jackal/Grunt morphology don't conform to Earthly taxonomic conventions - after all, these are alien species, and their evolutionary history might be very weird indeed. It would add a whole new interesting layer to the fiction behind these things - and plus, anything's a better explanation than just saying "Well, we got tired of the old Grunts and Jackals so we made ourselves some brand-new ones." [[User talk:SPARTAN-347|SPARTAN-347]] 22:47, 13 August 2012 (EDT)

:Fair enough, I just was curious as to whether these alternations were artistic license or not. [[User talk:Manwiththegun|Manwiththegun]] 16:54, 14 August 2012 (EDT)

== The Storm. ==

They aren't "Covenant Storm", they are just "The Storm".[[User talk:ArchedThunder|ArchedThunder]] 22:07, 13 August 2012 (EDT)

== Elite Changes ==

Anyone note any changes to the Sangheili physiology? The Grunts and Jackals are pretty obvious, but the Elite look the same. <font style="papyrus">[[User:Bioniclepluslotr|<font color="lime">'''Bioniclepluslotr'''</font>]]</font> 10:02, 19 August 2012 (EDT)

:Nothing significant enough to warrant a canonical explanation. They finally look how they should (not counting armor): The lean but powerful look of the halo reach elites, minus the disproportionate parts of the leg and torso, but with the head/dermal physiology of Halo 3 and halo 2 era elites. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 19:38, 5 November 2012 (EST)

== Storm Ranks ==

The Storm is not apart of The Covenant, and should not have it's ranks intermingled with Covenant Ranks. The Storm should have their own category of ranks like 'Refumee's Heretics do.

--[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 23:28, 22 September 2012 (EDT)

:Refumee's Heretics didn't have any rank system. And the Storm are likely to recycle familiar ranks to better organise themselves following the fall of the Covenant.— <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  23:33, 22 September 2012 (EDT)

They had a crude ranking system. Heretic Minors and Heretic Majors. And this Storm faction seems like it doesn't utilize Covenant Ranks at all save Zealot. Also, if you read The Thursday War Preview thing on Amazon which turned out to leak the majority of the novel, these elites are from a Sangheili colony world that was not apart of the Covenant. They actually refer to Sanghelios as the Old World. As per the Encylopedia basically all Sangheili that serve in the Covenant came from Sanghelios. The Covenant ranks are not familiar to them. This is why I am saying it would make more sense to put them as their own category because they have no place to be mingled between Covenant ranks.

--[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 10:03, 23 September 2012 (EDT)


'''As I posted in this [[Talk:Sangheili|talk page]].'''

''Since the "Storm" is only a splinter faction of the former-Covenant (which has now broken up and disseminated since the Great War) and, in certain aspects, completely different from the Covenant military altogether; it only makes sense if we create and organize a separate rank structure for the newly specific military roles Storm has introduced. Granted, some are, in retrospect to the time-era, related to titles given by the Covenant from before (suck as the Ranger specialists), they are still different.'' Killjax 13:54, 23 September 2012 (EDT)

Exactly.--[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 15:00, 23 September 2012 (EDT)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5WbZezbtEo Pause at 0:16. That "Warrior" Sangheili is actually a General, as identified in the commendation box. The Strom uses Covenant Ranks. What was posted on the Renders is just a description tag aside from Zealot and Ranger, obviously. --[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 11:50, 13 October 2012 (EDT)

== Covenant Loyalists? ==

Since they are led by Elites and follow the teachings of the Prophets, wouldn't this make them Covenant Loyalists? Maybe they're the remnants of the Loyalists? --[[User talk:ADinoSupremacist|ADinoSupremacist]] 21:10, 23 September 2012 (EDT)

No. They are labeled "Storm" for a reason. If they were "Loyalists", 343i would of expanded upon that explanation. I guess theoretically they are, but its a slightly different meaning in this case. 
Killjax 22:33, 23 September 2012 (EDT)

At most they're a Loyalist faction--[[Special:Contributions/210.56.88.111|210.56.88.111]] 00:17, 24 September 2012 (EDT)

IGN labeled them elites that follow the Prophet's teaching. IGN is also the first three letters of ignorance. The Thursday War confirms these elites have nothing to do with the Prophets. But I guess we'll have to wait till October 2nd to make that official.--[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 12:43, 24 September 2012 (EDT)

== Whatever happened to the Jiralhanae? ==

I don't know what the rest of you people are thinking, but does anyone have any idea about whatever happened to the Jiralhanae? I know they didn't just die off or get hunted down in the last days of the Covenant Civil War by the Sangheili, but how come I we haven't seen any sign that the Brutes are coming back in ''Halo 4''? I mean, the Gravity Hammer is making a return, but why not the Brutes? Any thoughts, ideas, or clues, anyone? --[[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 19:38, 27 September 2012 (EDT)Xamikaze330

:Can't answer canonically, so I'll answer [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WatsonianVersusDoylist Doylist-ly]: the Great Schism's importance was drastically diminished in ''Glasslands'', as it's barely mentioned and we even see Brutes on the sides of the Elites. Possibly that's where their absence stems from. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 23:58, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
:[[Jiralhanae#Post-Covenant|This]] should help give you some insight into what happened to them. As far as  the Grav Hammer is concerned, the Storm probably mustered up whatever weaponry they could find after the War & Great Schism, Brute weaponry included. Why just the GH, IDK.--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 21:00, 27 September 2012 (EDT)

::According to ''The Return'', the Great Schism was still being fought circa 2559, at which point both sides had begun to run low on resources; the Jiralhanae had also fallen victim to countless internal conflicts. ''Glasslands'' shows not only that many Jiralhanae remained subservient to the Sangheili, but that the latter race had also succumbed to civil warfare: case in point, the Storm rifle was used in the Elites' civil wars. Because of this, I assume that the Great Schism continued, albeit diminished in scale, between 2552 and 2559. I guess some of the more sensible Brutes and Elites, (if only a handful), were more concerned about their own survival than committing genocide on each other and thus deigned to work together. Besides, they would have plenty of intraspecies wars to fight in addition to their interspecies struggle.

::As for the gravity hammers, I have an answer. ''The Return'' motion comic shows Elites taking gravity hammers as trophies. [http://blogs.halo.xbox.com/Headlines/post/2012/09/19/The-Halo-Bulletin-91912-.aspx According to ''Waypoint''], the gravity hammers seen in ''Halo 4'' have been recovered from the field; the Sacred Promissory has, thanks to being Floodified and blown up, stopped manufacturing the weapon. Beggars can't be choosers, so I guess the Storm don't have any qualms about using the hammer. Then again, maybe Frankie was being his usual evasive self and the Brutes ''will'' make a surprise appearance in ''Halo 4''. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 23:55, 27 September 2012 (EDT)

==Name (closed)==
To my knowledge, no one from 343 Industries has identified the Covenant remnants that appear in ''Halo 4'' as the Storm. The only official source for the name is ''Official Xbox Magazine'', which is technically a second-party source since it isn't straight from 343i. The ''Examiner'' article is merely a synopsis of the ''OXM'' feature, while every other online source I've found lazily cites ''Examiner''. In many cases they're basically copy-paste jobs with a word or two changed to avoid outright plagiarism.

The [http://www.halowaypoint.com/en-US/halo4guide ''Halo 4 Interactive Guide''] consistently refers to the remnant forces as the Covenant, just as 343 employees have done in countless interviews. Not once does it call them the Storm, which is instead presented as the catch-all designation for basic Unggoy, Kig-Yar, and Sangheili infantry. The Storm Jackal entry specifically states that they are called such because, ''"[They] are generally deployed in 'storm' or assault formations alongside other troops;"'' the same can likely be said for the storm rifle. Furthermore, the ''OXM'' article claims that the so-called Storm follow the teachings of the Prophets. We know from the ''Kilo-Five'' series that this is a turn of phrase at best, what with Jul hating the San 'Shyuum's collective guts and all.

Basically, I'm suggesting A) that ''OXM'' mistook the name of an infantry classification for the whole faction, and B) that they don't know the lore well enough to distinguish the Prophets' religion from general worship of the Forerunners. I know that we should wait for the game's release before we jump to conclusions, so I'm not suggesting that the article be moved right away. However, I  feel that this definitely merits attention. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 12:46, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

:You have a point. I looked through several of the past Bulletins and not once did they say anything along the lines of "Storm faction". 343i always said the "Covenant" or in the case of the H4 guide, "newly established Covenant order" from "previous Covenant body" (Grunt Imperial description). The word "Storm" when used as a verb simply means to "Move angrily or forcefully in a specified direction" and those ranks are tied to that action. So in a sense, the Examiner may be incorrect. Therefore, Jul 'Mdama may simply be the new leader of the Covenant. If that's the case I guess we should take all the information here and merge it with "The Covenant".--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 17:35, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

::I would suggest a separate article since this is ''"newly established Covenant order" from "previous Covenant body"'' as to avoid confusion. Maybe "Covenant (post-war)" is a better title for this newly established order?— <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  21:43, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

:::Here's another issue: The sneak-peek terminal merely shows Jul 'Mdama leading his expeditionary fleet to Requiem. There is no indication that he is the leader of the Covenant <strike>or even his own faction</strike>. I think that ''"Covenant remnant"'' would be the best title, though ''"Covenant (post-war)"'' would also work. Either way, I'll go about removing all references to the Storm once a decision has been made. 

:::The post-war Covenant reminds me quite a bit of the Galactic Empire after Palpatine's death at Endor. The government was fragmented and restructured, but it remained the Empire nonetheless, at least nominally. Likewise, it continued to be a thorn in the side of the dominant government until a new, universal threat emerged. Just replace the Empire, the New Republic, and the Yuuzhan Vong with the Covenant, the UEG, and the Didact, respectively; the parallels are quite clear. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 23:08, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

::::I think it's pretty much a given from the Kilo-Five trilogy that Jul 'Mdama is the leader. Not so sure about the parallels to Star Wars. :P — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  23:22, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

:::::I can kinda see what you're trying to get at, but the Galactic Empire, when it fragmented, it then became the Imperial Remnant. Trust me, I know this stuff extremely well. I am a ''Star Wars'' buff, among many other science fiction themes. But to be honest, I have been wondering, where did the whole "Storm" faction thing start popping up? I mean, how did this Covenant Loyalist-type splinter faction start out being called the "Storm"? Where does it say "Storm"? I'm confused. --[[User:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] ([[User talk:Xamikaze330|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Xamikaze330|contribs]]) 23:28, 30 October 2012 (EDT)Xamikaze330

:::After reading through the guide again, I'm thinking the "Storm" is simply the Covenant, minus the Prophets (and Brutes). From the Zealot artice in the guide: "But with the absence of the San'Shyuum leadership, the Zealots have shifted into the more practical arena of social and political leadership, operating as the consummate head of the Covenant." [[File:Colonel Grade One.png|20px]][[User:Spartansniper450/IRC Quotes|<span style="color:#000000">''Col.''</span>]] [[User:Spartansniper450|<span style="color:#00416A">Snipes</span>]][[User talk:Spartansniper450|<span style="color:gold">4</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Spartansniper450|<span style="color:silver">50</span>]][[File:Colonel Grade One.png|20px]] 00:05, 31 October 2012 (EDT)

:'''Edit conflict''' - @Subtank - Oops. I thought I had removed ''"or even his own faction."'' We should eventually create a separate article for 'Mdama's expeditionary fleet. That way we would have articles for both the post-war Covenant as a whole and for the specific fleet encountered in ''Halo 4''.

:@Xamikaze330 - I too am a huge ''Star Wars'' fan. I have dozens of novels and comic books, almost as many games, and so forth. As for the Galactic Empire parallel, I was just using a generalization. The term "Imperial Remnant" is mostly used by the New Republic and its successor states; loyal Imperial subjects continued to acknowledge their government simply as the Empire even decades after the Yuuzhan Vong War. On topic, though, we've been discussing that the name "Storm" comes from a misunderstanding on behalf of ''Official Xbox Magazine''. Basically, there's no such thing as the Storm, only a remnant faction which still identifies itself as the Covenant. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 00:13, 31 October 2012 (EDT)

::I definitely agree we should rename this - all official material so far has only called them "Covenant", most recently the Interactive Guide, so I think we can safely say the "Storm" is a misinterpretation on OXM's part as you said. As for the new title, I'm in the favor of calling this "Covenant remnant"; mainly because I like to avoid having brackets in titles wherever possible. Spelling "remnant" with a lowercase letter should make it clear we're not trying to sell it as a proper name like the Imperial Remnant in ''Star Wars'', merely a description similar to [[Covenant separatists]]. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 02:01, 31 October 2012 (EDT)

:::If it's true that they aren't known as the Storm, the we got some major overhauling and correcting to do on a wide span of pages.--[[File:1221751884 I-animated-this-for-you.gif|20px]][[User:Ender the Xenocide|<font color="Green">Ender the Xenocide]]</font>[[File:1221751884 I-animated-this-for-you.gif|20px]] 04:32, 31 October 2012 (EDT)

::::Indeed.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 22:03, 3 November 2012 (EDT)

::::We may also need people to change the name over at Halo Nation. And quickly. I've seen this faction called "the Storm" as far away as Tv Tropes's Halo pages! [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 17:02, 4 November 2012 (EST)

:::Then what are we going to call the Storm Rifle? Not an argument, just a question. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 16:13, 4 November 2012 (EST)

::::"Storm rifle" is a literal translation of the German word for assault rifle, so the weapon's name refers to its function rather than its users. I just hope that people don't get the idea that "storm" is a proper noun. {{Unsigned|Braidenvl}}

===Voting===
*{{support}} - Per Braidenvl.--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 12:19, 4 November 2012 (EST)

===Candidates===
#Covenant (post-war)
#Covenant remnant

===Votes===
*(#2) - Seems like a better name.--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 12:19, 4 November 2012 (EST)
*(#2) - Seems like the actual name.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 12:45, 4 November 2012 (EST)
*(#2) - The latter accurately conveys that this is a different Covenant, one not at its peak, and also has some [[w:c:starwars:Imperial Remnant|precedent on another established wiki]]. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 15:41, 4 November 2012 (EST)
*(#2) - We just have to make sure people understand that "Covenant remnant" is a descriptor, not a proper or canonical name.  --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 16:34, 4 November 2012 (EST)
*(#2) - As per everyone else.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 16:36, 4 November 2012 (EST)
*(#2) - As per all above. --<b>[[User:Tentacletornado|<font color="#2E8B57">''Tent''</font><font color="#3CB371">''acle''</font>]][[User talk:Tentacletornado|<font color="#DAA520">''Torn''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Tentacletornado|<font color="#B8860B">''ado''</font>]]</b> 17:25, 4 November 2012 (EST)
*(#2) - Per above, this Covenant has been completely restructured leadership wise, a title like "Covenant remnant" shows that. [[File:Colonel Grade One.png|20px]][[User:Spartansniper450/IRC Quotes|<span style="color:#000000">''Col.''</span>]] [[User:Spartansniper450|<span style="color:#00416A">Snipes</span>]][[User talk:Spartansniper450|<span style="color:gold">4</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Spartansniper450|<span style="color:silver">50</span>]][[File:Colonel Grade One.png|20px]] 18:06, 4 November 2012 (EST)
*(#2) - Think it's about time we did something about this. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 08:43, 5 November 2012 (EST)

I think it's safe to say that we reached a full consensus on the naming. You all are welcome to [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Storm|fix any reference to the Storm in other articles]]. — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  08:49, 5 November 2012 (EST)
:I can start some of it this afternoon (lunchbreak), starting with the moving of this article, unless someone beats me to it.--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 10:39, 5 November 2012 (EST)
:That looks like my cue... I'll make a start on it. --<b>[[User:Tentacletornado|<font color="#2E8B57">''Tent''</font><font color="#3CB371">''acle''</font>]][[User talk:Tentacletornado|<font color="#DAA520">''Torn''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Tentacletornado|<font color="#B8860B">''ado''</font>]]</b> 16:55, 5 November 2012 (EST)
:Oh, I didn't realise when this was done.. Nevermind. --<b>[[User:Tentacletornado|<font color="#2E8B57">''Tent''</font><font color="#3CB371">''acle''</font>]][[User talk:Tentacletornado|<font color="#DAA520">''Torn''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Tentacletornado|<font color="#B8860B">''ado''</font>]]</b> 16:57, 5 November 2012 (EST)

==Unidentified==
I am aware this matter is closed, but isn't there a precedent for having articles on an unamed subject to be titled "Unnamed (short discriptor)", as seen here: http://www.halopedia.org/Unnamed ? http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 17:36, 5 November 2012 (EST)
:They're not "unidentified". ''343i'' has been identifying them as the Covenant but they are not the original Covenant, just a "remnant", surviving group of them- hence "Covenant remnant". Also, as Jugus said earlier, we prefer to avoid having brackets in titles wherever possible.--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 18:44, 5 November 2012 (EST)
:: Not unidentified, but unnamed. In this case, "Unnamed Covenant Remnant". http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 19:19, 5 November 2012 (EST)
:::Same difference. They have been identified numerous times as the Covenant (especially on the H4 interactive guide), so they are not "unnamed" either. Putting that in the name wouldn't make any sense as it would confuse readers. "Remnant" is more proper and helps readers understand that they are the Covenant but not the original empire they used to be. Also the note at the top and bottom of the article already covers the reason for the title name. Now if the game identifies them as, I guess "Storm" or otherwise, than we'll move the article accordingly.--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 19:37, 5 November 2012 (EST)
::::But those places they are identified as the covenant aren't written from in canon. Out of canon, of course they will be referred to as just the covenant, because there is no other covenant in the game (presumably). I will hold off on this matter more until I play the game. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 22:31, 5 November 2012 (EST)

== Storm...Wait a minute... ==

I don't know what the rest of you people have been thinking, but maybe we weren't entirely wrong about calling this faction the "Storm". On Halo Waypoint there are still some things like weapons and infantry types that have the term "Storm" in the title classification. Perhaps it really was going to be called the "Storm", or else not. I guess it's all speculation. Anybody else have any thoughts or confirmed information to share? --[[User:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] ([[User talk:Xamikaze330|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Xamikaze330|contribs]]) 23:26, 6 November 2012 (EST)Xamikaze330

:From all the gameplay and cutscenes I've seen, the faction is repeatedly referred to as "Covenant" and never as "Storm". [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 00:27, 7 November 2012 (EST)

:::That's a rather bad reason. Are grunts ever called unggoy in game? There's plenty of canonical information that was at a time or still is only mentioned in promotional stuff, that had that info included in the wiki at the time and still do. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 12:02, 7 November 2012 (EST)

:::Sometimes, yes. Usually in chatter dialogue. "Do I look like an Unggoy?" [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 12:13, 7 November 2012 (EST)

::::You get my point, though. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 21:40, 7 November 2012 (EST)

::To be expected, honestly. As I said, just speculation. Please disregard speculation then. Not sure why though. Or maybe Storm Jackal can be translated as "Assault Jackal". Whatever. --[[User:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] ([[User talk:Xamikaze330|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Xamikaze330|contribs]]) 00:35, 7 November 2012 (EST)Xamikaze330

==Large Remnant ship==
[[File:InfinityRam.jpg|300px|thumb|right]]
I'm not sure where to post this so as this page is connected as the remnant used it I'll post it here.
In Spartan Ops 'Departure' cutscene the Infinity is seen ramming a Covenant vessel that looks alot like a CCS-battlecruiser, however if you watch the scene in which this happens half a dozen CCS ships actually pass between this unidentified ship and the camera revealing that this vessel is aproximately the size of a Assault Carrier. I do not believe it has been given a page on this wiki yet. [[User talk:VARGR|VARGR]] 20:00, 8 November 2012 (EST)
:I was thinking that it could be an ORS-class heavy cruiser or a ''Reverence''-class cruiser. ''Infinity'' has a beam (width) of 833 meters, including the large port and starboard hangar bays. By that screenshot alone, factoring in her beam and the bow to amidships of the Remnant flagship, you could roughly estimate that she's approximately 2.5 to 3 kilometers in length. That would put it in the ballpark of an ORS. {{User:Grizzlei/Sig}}

It could be a [[DDS-class carrier]] perhaps as the size would match. [[User talk:VARGR|VARGR]] 21:41, 8 November 2012 (EST)
:No. The Essential Visual Guide says that the three carrioer classes (DDS, CAS, and CSO) have very similar appearances. [[User talk:Missing Mandible|Missing Mandible]] 00:57, 9 November 2012 (EST)

:Ah ok. Should we give it it's own page then as "Unidenified Covenant Remnant ship" then? [[User talk:VARGR|VARGR]] 13:01, 9 November 2012 (EST)

Based on the size of the two different ships, I'm thinking the large one was the standard ccs battlecruiser.
And the small ones were light cruisers.
You also see many small cruisers throughout the campaign. masterclod (not sure how to sign)

:It might be a covenant supercruiser. [[User talk:Flavius Aetius|Flavius Aetius]] 16:56, 10 November 2012 (EST)

To sign press ~ four times. No the small ones are CCS battlecruisers as they are the correct scale compared to the Infinity and the exact same design as CCS cruisers seen in the main campaign. Could be the supercruiser perhaps. [[User talk:VARGR|VARGR]] 20:01, 10 November 2012 (EST)

:How so? A CCS-class is 1.8 kilometers long, one-third the Infinity's length; the larger cruiser is (relatively) correctly scaled compared to the "smaller" ones, which seems to be shorter than the Infinity's width. The ships surrounding the ''Dawn'' in the first campaign level also appears ridiculously small compared to the battlecruiser Noble Six downed in Reach - seriously, how could a single missile rip even an unshielded CCS-class apart? 
:Of course, another possibility is that it's an optical illusion - the ships might simply be very far away or very close to the camera. Either way, Halo 4 has some serious scaling issues, especially with the retconned Dawn.-[[User talk:Kronos101|Kronos101]] 20:10, 10 November 2012 (EST)

I just played dawn again, they are Definitly not ccs, in forerunner when the elites come down in drop pods you can see a ccs directly above you. It is much bigger so the smaller ones are Definitly light cruisers[[User talk:Masterclod|Masterclod]] 01:12, 11 November 2012 (EST)masterclod
:While I haven't looked at the one in Forerunner, the ones in Dawn are CCS actually, the discussion above is on the large ship Infinity rammed into in [[S1/Departure|Departure]].[[File:Colonel Grade One.png|20px]][[User:Spartansniper450/IRC Quotes|<span style="color:#000000">''Col.''</span>]] [[User:Spartansniper450|<span style="color:#00416A">Snipes</span>]][[User talk:Spartansniper450|<span style="color:gold">4</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Spartansniper450|<span style="color:silver">50</span>]][[File:Colonel Grade One.png|20px]] 01:03, 11 November 2012 (EST)

Look at the one is forerunner and compare it to the cruiser in dawn, it's MUCH bigger. And the one that infinity crashed into IS a ccs. It just looks giant because its surrounded by light cruisers [[User talk:Masterclod|Masterclod]] 01:12, 11 November 2012 (EST)masterclod

:I think Masterclod is right about the cruisers in Dawn being smaller. Just take a look at the one John floats through, there's no way that's a full size CCS. As for the one the Infinity rams, that doesn't look like it could be a CCS either, this time because it's too big, given the size estimates of 3km Grizzlei made, almost double the size of a CCS. [[User talk:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:21, 12 November 2012 (EST)

:The one in dawn is obviously a light cruiser considering it's only 2-3 times the size of the rear half of the FUD. This one has to be a supercruiser or DDS, and it's not a CCS because no known iteration of the CCS has those spikes on it's neck. 
It can't be a Reverence because the Reverence class was 1400 Meters, smaller than a CCS. 
[[User talk:Flavius Aetius|Flavius Aetius]] 12:44, 12 November 2012 (EST)
  Im Thinking its a ccs, maybe the spikes are just there to show more detail?
Someone needs to put light cruisers in the ships section, because the remnant seems to have a lot. [[User talk:Masterclod|Masterclod]] 16:18, 16 November 2012 (EST)Masterclod

They really don't as they are CCS. Its the large ship the Infinity hits thats not a CCS as its clearly far to large - aprox the size of a Assault carrier. [[User talk:VARGR|VARGR]] 08:33, 21 November 2012 (EST)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-{{Archived}}
-== Name ==
+== Jumping the gun? ==
-The new Canon Fodder confirms that this faction is just called the "Covenant" by Jul and his forces. Since that is the official name, should we rename this article "Covenant (Jul 'Mdama's faction)" or something of the like, or is the current name fine enough. - [[User:NightHammer|NightHammer]] ([[User talk:NightHammer|talk]]) 18:16, 1 May 2015 (EDT)
+Isn't it a bit early to claim the new Storm Grunts and Jackals are 'subspecies'? ''Artistic license'' should come into consideration here regardless of changes to how the enemies actually look. The Godzilla suit of today looks different than the ones in prior films, it's still the same character though. [[User talk:Manwiththegun|Manwiththegun]] 15:35, 13 August 2012 (EDT)
-:That could work, and/or list the original Covenant as "Covenant Empire" or "Covenant (empire)" perhaps. - [[User:DarkAuk|DarkAuk]] ([[User talk:DarkAuk|talk]]) 18:26, 1 May 2015 (EDT)
+:''[http://halo.xbox.com/blogs/Headlines/post/2012/05/09/The-Halo-Bulletin-5912.aspx The Halo Bulletin 5.9.12]'' explicitly states that the new Grunts are canonically different from those in previous titles. These differences are not just real-world aesthetic changes; they actually represent another in-universe variation of the Unggoy. Indeed, the majority of the ''Bulletin'' is devoted to discussing and theorizing why the new Grunts look different from those who've come before: ''"As for how the Grunts of past Halo games and Halo 4 compare: Are they different species, a result of natural mutation, selective breeding, or genetic mutation within a single species? We’re not ready to show our cards here just yet. We can say that there are certain species on Earth which exhibit extraordinary differences within their kind (Great Dane vs. Pomeranian) and that there are vastly numerous species similar enough to categorically lump them together (look up Plover)."'' The ''Bulletin'' says that a more concrete explanation for these physical differences will be given in due time.
-:: *sigh* the Covenant. Really? Damn it, that just doesn't sit well with me. Surely they could have come up with something more inventive like the Swords of Sanghelios for Thel's faction. Plus it messes with the original Covenant's name. Hell, I would have been happy with the 'New Covenant.' But alas, it isn't up to me :( [[User:SLiD1nG Pr0Xy|SLiD1nG Pr0Xy]] ([[User talk:SLiD1nG Pr0Xy|talk]]) 20:03, 1 May 2015 (EDT)
+:The morphological variation among the Kig-Yar has been explained both [http://halo.xbox.com/en-us/Universe/Detail/the-jackals/24dc0ecc-8cf0-473a-aae3-266fe6019d61 here] and in the revised ''Encyclopedia'' as the result of divergent evolution on different moons, planetoids, and asteroids in the Y'Deio system. For example, the Skirmishers come from a satellite with higher gravity than Eayn, causing them to evolve much heavier muscles than their kin. Considering that the straight-beaked Jackals of ''Halo 2'', the slope-beaked Jackals of ''Halo 3'' through ''Anniversary'', and the dromaeosaur-like Skirmishers all belong to the same species, it isn't much of a stretch to assume that the Jackals in ''Halo 4'' represent yet another phenotype; the real-world Galapagos finches have a similar, (though less extreme), degree of morphological diversity.
-::: Does it really change anything? Remember [[Zef 'Trahl]]'s words: "A hundred warlords claim they rule the Covenant, but each merely rules a small faction". The fact that they use the term "[[Covenant]]" over [[Covenant remnants]] is no big revelation. It's been established ever since we learned the concept. I see no reason to change the name. From my reading, it doesn't really change anything. Heck, in our article on the [[Swords of Sanghelios]], it outright says that Jul's faction considers itself the legitimate successor to the Covenant. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] ([[User talk:SFH|talk]]) 20:41, 1 May 2015 (EDT)
-:Perhaps just "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant". Leave out the faction part? Either that or we could just leave it as it is as I'm not sure about something like "Covenant (Post-war)".[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 20:43, 1 May 2015 (EDT)
+:Consider society on Earth prior to the Halo Array's activation. Several distinct species and subspecies of the ''homo'' genus were all lumped together as humanity, like the aforementioned [[Wikipedia:Plover|plover]]. It is entirely possible that the Unggoy and the Kig-Yar societies are structured in a similar manner, with different species of the same genus all categorized as the same race. Overall, think of all these aesthetic changes in a Watsonian manner rather than a Doylist one. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 17:34, 13 August 2012 (EDT)
-::"Covenant (Post-war)" may be a more apt title for the Covenant remnants page, since it appears that all the separate factions are still considered part of a Covenant "bloc", while "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant" would more accurately describe this faction without creating a notion that it is the only group calling itself the "Covenant" in the post-war era.--[[User:Cyrannian|Cyrannian]] ([[User talk:Cyrannian|talk]]) 22:28, 1 May 2015 (EDT)
+I'm interested in the idea that the variations in Jackal/Grunt morphology don't conform to Earthly taxonomic conventions - after all, these are alien species, and their evolutionary history might be very weird indeed. It would add a whole new interesting layer to the fiction behind these things - and plus, anything's a better explanation than just saying "Well, we got tired of the old Grunts and Jackals so we made ourselves some brand-new ones." [[User talk:SPARTAN-347|SPARTAN-347]] 22:47, 13 August 2012 (EDT)
-:::Man, I really wish Grim just went with "New Covenant" or something (or at least told us what the UNSC calls Jul's faction). I'd love to get rid of the "faction" part in the name. "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant" might be the best at the moment, but then it kind of feels pointless since this is still a Covenant faction and the current title already accurately describes that. So, like I said, perhaps leaving as it is is the best idea for now, unless anyone has a better idea. - [[User:NightHammer|NightHammer]] ([[User talk:NightHammer|talk]]) 23:51, 1 May 2015 (EDT)
+:Fair enough, I just was curious as to whether these alternations were artistic license or not. [[User talk:Manwiththegun|Manwiththegun]] 16:54, 14 August 2012 (EDT)
-::::Yeah, I agree with NightHammer. I think we should leave it for now. The New Covenant would have been great... - [[User:SLiD1nG Pr0Xy|SLiD1nG Pr0Xy]] ([[User talk:SLiD1nG Pr0Xy|talk]]) 00:36, 2 May 2015 (EDT)
+== The Storm. ==
-It does strike me as an odd choice. The Prophets are not part of Jul's faction, so who do the Sangheili have a Covenant with? Jul doesn't seem to have much regard for the non-Sangheili members of his group, and he doesn't follow the Great Journey. Neither do they now believe the Halos will cause salvation. So why consider his faction the original Covenant?  "The Storm" was already a different type of name, and Specops once had some nice ideas with "Blood Covenant" and "True Covenant".
+They aren't "Covenant Storm", they are just "The Storm".[[User talk:ArchedThunder|ArchedThunder]] 22:07, 13 August 2012 (EDT)
-In regards to the title, we can keep it the same; it establishes that it's his group and that it's a distinct faction among others. Same reason why "Heretics" was renamed to "[[Sesa 'Refumee's heretic faction]]", because they're likely not the only heretics in the Covenant's history. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 00:54, 2 May 2015 (EDT)
+== Elite Changes ==
-:Frankly, I've never understood the community's yearning for Jul's Covenant to have a unique name. His followers see themselves as the legitimate continuation of the original body, which is why they've never been called anything but "the Covenant" in official media, in-universe or out. Plenty of ''Waypoint'' forum-goers are acting like the name (or lack thereof) is some big revelation: It isn't. "Storm Covenant" and - *retch* - "Covenant '''R'''emnant" are nothing more than fanonyms.
+Anyone note any changes to the Sangheili physiology? The Grunts and Jackals are pretty obvious, but the Elite look the same. <font style="papyrus">[[User:Bioniclepluslotr|<font color="lime">'''Bioniclepluslotr'''</font>]]</font> 10:02, 19 August 2012 (EDT)
-:As for the article title, I agree with Tuckerscreator. Jul's faction is just of many groups identified by its members as "The Official Covenant<sup>TM</sup>", despite the ''actual'' hegemony being long gone. Nothing sets Jul's forces apart from other self-identified "Covenants" (''i.e.'' Merg Vol's) except narrative significance. The title should stay as-is. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 12:19, 2 May 2015 (EDT)
+:Nothing significant enough to warrant a canonical explanation. They finally look how they should (not counting armor): The lean but powerful look of the halo reach elites, minus the disproportionate parts of the leg and torso, but with the head/dermal physiology of Halo 3 and halo 2 era elites. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 19:38, 5 November 2012 (EST)
-::Personally, I'm fine with the faction being called the "Covenant", as well. I was thinking it would be easier, from an editor's standpoint, if it was called something else to distinguish it from the old Covenant. Regardless, I'm fine with keeping the title as it is. - [[User:NightHammer|NightHammer]] ([[User talk:NightHammer|talk]]) 18:06, 2 May 2015 (EDT)
+== Storm Ranks ==
-:::Covenant Empire (Jul 'Mdama) or something like that would be cool for me. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] ([[User talk:Alertfiend|talk]]) 22:53, 28 August 2015 (EDT)
+The Storm is not apart of The Covenant, and should not have it's ranks intermingled with Covenant Ranks. The Storm should have their own category of ranks like 'Refumee's Heretics do.
-:::Its not an empire though. Jul's Covenant is post-war and considered a terrorist/pirate group rather than the full fledged army of the Original Covenant Empire. Two very different groups. I think the title should be left as Jul Mdama's Covenant Faction. [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 21:10, 4 October 2015 (EDT)
+--[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 23:28, 22 September 2012 (EDT)
-I was rereading ''Halo: Escalation'' Volume 1 (#1-#6) and came across the term "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant" (on [[:File:JulMdama Escalation.jpg|this]] [[:File:Halsey Escalation.jpg|page]]). Don't misunderstand me, I know it's just used descriptively. But I feel it would be simpler and more accurate. After all, they call themselves the Covenant, so we could at least drop the 'faction' from the title. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 14:07, 13 February 2016 (EST)
+:Refumee's Heretics didn't have any rank system. And the Storm are likely to recycle familiar ranks to better organise themselves following the fall of the Covenant.— <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  23:33, 22 September 2012 (EDT)
-:I agree. In addition, "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant faction" has also been used in official sources (can't remember the source right now, though). Regardless, I do think we should rename it. I've already started referring to the faction as "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant" on several articles. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 16:40, 13 February 2016 (EST)
+They had a crude ranking system. Heretic Minors and Heretic Majors. And this Storm faction seems like it doesn't utilize Covenant Ranks at all save Zealot. Also, if you read The Thursday War Preview thing on Amazon which turned out to leak the majority of the novel, these elites are from a Sangheili colony world that was not apart of the Covenant. They actually refer to Sanghelios as the Old World. As per the Encylopedia basically all Sangheili that serve in the Covenant came from Sanghelios. The Covenant ranks are not familiar to them. This is why I am saying it would make more sense to put them as their own category because they have no place to be mingled between Covenant ranks.
-The word faction in the title only takes up extra space and is not necessary since the proper name of the faction is "The Covenant". I suggest we rename it.--[[User:The Master Builder|The Master Builder]] ([[User talk:The Master Builder|talk]]) 19:07, 29 February 2016 (EST)
+--[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 10:03, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
-:If only for its redundancy as the Covenant itself is a faction should it be removed. Jul 'Mdama's organization is more or less considered by many throughout the universe itself, by the series creators, and by the fan community as the continuation or the revival of the original Covenant. {{User:Helianthus/Sig}}
-::Let's put it to a vote. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 18:54, 2 March 2016 (EST)
+'''As I posted in this [[Talk:Sangheili|talk page]].'''
+''Since the "Storm" is only a splinter faction of the former-Covenant (which has now broken up and disseminated since the Great War) and, in certain aspects, completely different from the Covenant military altogether; it only makes sense if we create and organize a separate rank structure for the newly specific military roles Storm has introduced. Granted, some are, in retrospect to the time-era, related to titles given by the Covenant from before (suck as the Ranger specialists), they are still different.'' Killjax 13:54, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
+Exactly.--[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 15:00, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
+http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5WbZezbtEo Pause at 0:16. That "Warrior" Sangheili is actually a General, as identified in the commendation box. The Strom uses Covenant Ranks. What was posted on the Renders is just a description tag aside from Zealot and Ranger, obviously. --[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 11:50, 13 October 2012 (EDT)
+== Covenant Loyalists? ==
+Since they are led by Elites and follow the teachings of the Prophets, wouldn't this make them Covenant Loyalists? Maybe they're the remnants of the Loyalists? --[[User talk:ADinoSupremacist|ADinoSupremacist]] 21:10, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
+No. They are labeled "Storm" for a reason. If they were "Loyalists", 343i would of expanded upon that explanation. I guess theoretically they are, but its a slightly different meaning in this case.
+Killjax 22:33, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
+At most they're a Loyalist faction--[[Special:Contributions/210.56.88.111|210.56.88.111]] 00:17, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
+IGN labeled them elites that follow the Prophet's teaching. IGN is also the first three letters of ignorance. The Thursday War confirms these elites have nothing to do with the Prophets. But I guess we'll have to wait till October 2nd to make that official.--[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 12:43, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
+== Whatever happened to the Jiralhanae? ==
+I don't know what the rest of you people are thinking, but does anyone have any idea about whatever happened to the Jiralhanae? I know they didn't just die off or get hunted down in the last days of the Covenant Civil War by the Sangheili, but how come I we haven't seen any sign that the Brutes are coming back in ''Halo 4''? I mean, the Gravity Hammer is making a return, but why not the Brutes? Any thoughts, ideas, or clues, anyone? --[[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 19:38, 27 September 2012 (EDT)Xamikaze330
+:Can't answer canonically, so I'll answer [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WatsonianVersusDoylist Doylist-ly]: the Great Schism's importance was drastically diminished in ''Glasslands'', as it's barely mentioned and we even see Brutes on the sides of the Elites. Possibly that's where their absence stems from. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 23:58, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
+:[[Jiralhanae#Post-Covenant|This]] should help give you some insight into what happened to them. As far as  the Grav Hammer is concerned, the Storm probably mustered up whatever weaponry they could find after the War & Great Schism, Brute weaponry included. Why just the GH, IDK.--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 21:00, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
+::According to ''The Return'', the Great Schism was still being fought circa 2559, at which point both sides had begun to run low on resources; the Jiralhanae had also fallen victim to countless internal conflicts. ''Glasslands'' shows not only that many Jiralhanae remained subservient to the Sangheili, but that the latter race had also succumbed to civil warfare: case in point, the Storm rifle was used in the Elites' civil wars. Because of this, I assume that the Great Schism continued, albeit diminished in scale, between 2552 and 2559. I guess some of the more sensible Brutes and Elites, (if only a handful), were more concerned about their own survival than committing genocide on each other and thus deigned to work together. Besides, they would have plenty of intraspecies wars to fight in addition to their interspecies struggle.
+::As for the gravity hammers, I have an answer. ''The Return'' motion comic shows Elites taking gravity hammers as trophies. [http://blogs.halo.xbox.com/Headlines/post/2012/09/19/The-Halo-Bulletin-91912-.aspx According to ''Waypoint''], the gravity hammers seen in ''Halo 4'' have been recovered from the field; the Sacred Promissory has, thanks to being Floodified and blown up, stopped manufacturing the weapon. Beggars can't be choosers, so I guess the Storm don't have any qualms about using the hammer. Then again, maybe Frankie was being his usual evasive self and the Brutes ''will'' make a surprise appearance in ''Halo 4''. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 23:55, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
+==Name (closed)==
+To my knowledge, no one from 343 Industries has identified the Covenant remnants that appear in ''Halo 4'' as the Storm. The only official source for the name is ''Official Xbox Magazine'', which is technically a second-party source since it isn't straight from 343i. The ''Examiner'' article is merely a synopsis of the ''OXM'' feature, while every other online source I've found lazily cites ''Examiner''. In many cases they're basically copy-paste jobs with a word or two changed to avoid outright plagiarism.
+The [http://www.halowaypoint.com/en-US/halo4guide ''Halo 4 Interactive Guide''] consistently refers to the remnant forces as the Covenant, just as 343 employees have done in countless interviews. Not once does it call them the Storm, which is instead presented as the catch-all designation for basic Unggoy, Kig-Yar, and Sangheili infantry. The Storm Jackal entry specifically states that they are called such because, ''"[They] are generally deployed in 'storm' or assault formations alongside other troops;"'' the same can likely be said for the storm rifle. Furthermore, the ''OXM'' article claims that the so-called Storm follow the teachings of the Prophets. We know from the ''Kilo-Five'' series that this is a turn of phrase at best, what with Jul hating the San 'Shyuum's collective guts and all.
+Basically, I'm suggesting A) that ''OXM'' mistook the name of an infantry classification for the whole faction, and B) that they don't know the lore well enough to distinguish the Prophets' religion from general worship of the Forerunners. I know that we should wait for the game's release before we jump to conclusions, so I'm not suggesting that the article be moved right away. However, I  feel that this definitely merits attention. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 12:46, 30 October 2012 (EDT)
+:You have a point. I looked through several of the past Bulletins and not once did they say anything along the lines of "Storm faction". 343i always said the "Covenant" or in the case of the H4 guide, "newly established Covenant order" from "previous Covenant body" (Grunt Imperial description). The word "Storm" when used as a verb simply means to "Move angrily or forcefully in a specified direction" and those ranks are tied to that action. So in a sense, the Examiner may be incorrect. Therefore, Jul 'Mdama may simply be the new leader of the Covenant. If that's the case I guess we should take all the information here and merge it with "The Covenant".--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 17:35, 30 October 2012 (EDT)
+::I would suggest a separate article since this is ''"newly established Covenant order" from "previous Covenant body"'' as to avoid confusion. Maybe "Covenant (post-war)" is a better title for this newly established order?— <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  21:43, 30 October 2012 (EDT)
+:::Here's another issue: The sneak-peek terminal merely shows Jul 'Mdama leading his expeditionary fleet to Requiem. There is no indication that he is the leader of the Covenant <strike>or even his own faction</strike>. I think that ''"Covenant remnant"'' would be the best title, though ''"Covenant (post-war)"'' would also work. Either way, I'll go about removing all references to the Storm once a decision has been made.
+:::The post-war Covenant reminds me quite a bit of the Galactic Empire after Palpatine's death at Endor. The government was fragmented and restructured, but it remained the Empire nonetheless, at least nominally. Likewise, it continued to be a thorn in the side of the dominant government until a new, universal threat emerged. Just replace the Empire, the New Republic, and the Yuuzhan Vong with the Covenant, the UEG, and the Didact, respectively; the parallels are quite clear. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 23:08, 30 October 2012 (EDT)
+::::I think it's pretty much a given from the Kilo-Five trilogy that Jul 'Mdama is the leader. Not so sure about the parallels to Star Wars. :P — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  23:22, 30 October 2012 (EDT)
+:::::I can kinda see what you're trying to get at, but the Galactic Empire, when it fragmented, it then became the Imperial Remnant. Trust me, I know this stuff extremely well. I am a ''Star Wars'' buff, among many other science fiction themes. But to be honest, I have been wondering, where did the whole "Storm" faction thing start popping up? I mean, how did this Covenant Loyalist-type splinter faction start out being called the "Storm"? Where does it say "Storm"? I'm confused. --[[User:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] ([[User talk:Xamikaze330|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Xamikaze330|contribs]]) 23:28, 30 October 2012 (EDT)Xamikaze330
+:::After reading through the guide again, I'm thinking the "Storm" is simply the Covenant, minus the Prophets (and Brutes). From the Zealot artice in the guide: "But with the absence of the San'Shyuum leadership, the Zealots have shifted into the more practical arena of social and political leadership, operating as the consummate head of the Covenant." [[File:Colonel Grade One.png|20px]][[User:Spartansniper450/IRC Quotes|<span style="color:#000000">''Col.''</span>]] [[User:Spartansniper450|<span style="color:#00416A">Snipes</span>]][[User talk:Spartansniper450|<span style="color:gold">4</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Spartansniper450|<span style="color:silver">50</span>]][[File:Colonel Grade One.png|20px]] 00:05, 31 October 2012 (EDT)
+:'''Edit conflict''' - @Subtank - Oops. I thought I had removed ''"or even his own faction."'' We should eventually create a separate article for 'Mdama's expeditionary fleet. That way we would have articles for both the post-war Covenant as a whole and for the specific fleet encountered in ''Halo 4''.
+:@Xamikaze330 - I too am a huge ''Star Wars'' fan. I have dozens of novels and comic books, almost as many games, and so forth. As for the Galactic Empire parallel, I was just using a generalization. The term "Imperial Remnant" is mostly used by the New Republic and its successor states; loyal Imperial subjects continued to acknowledge their government simply as the Empire even decades after the Yuuzhan Vong War. On topic, though, we've been discussing that the name "Storm" comes from a misunderstanding on behalf of ''Official Xbox Magazine''. Basically, there's no such thing as the Storm, only a remnant faction which still identifies itself as the Covenant. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 00:13, 31 October 2012 (EDT)
+::I definitely agree we should rename this - all official material so far has only called them "Covenant", most recently the Interactive Guide, so I think we can safely say the "Storm" is a misinterpretation on OXM's part as you said. As for the new title, I'm in the favor of calling this "Covenant remnant"; mainly because I like to avoid having brackets in titles wherever possible. Spelling "remnant" with a lowercase letter should make it clear we're not trying to sell it as a proper name like the Imperial Remnant in ''Star Wars'', merely a description similar to [[Covenant separatists]]. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 02:01, 31 October 2012 (EDT)
+:::If it's true that they aren't known as the Storm, the we got some major overhauling and correcting to do on a wide span of pages.--[[File:1221751884 I-animated-this-for-you.gif|20px]][[User:Ender the Xenocide|<font color="Green">Ender the Xenocide]]</font>[[File:1221751884 I-animated-this-for-you.gif|20px]] 04:32, 31 October 2012 (EDT)
+::::Indeed.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 22:03, 3 November 2012 (EDT)
+::::We may also need people to change the name over at Halo Nation. And quickly. I've seen this faction called "the Storm" as far away as Tv Tropes's Halo pages! [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 17:02, 4 November 2012 (EST)
+:::Then what are we going to call the Storm Rifle? Not an argument, just a question. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 16:13, 4 November 2012 (EST)
+::::"Storm rifle" is a literal translation of the German word for assault rifle, so the weapon's name refers to its function rather than its users. I just hope that people don't get the idea that "storm" is a proper noun. {{Unsigned|Braidenvl}}
+===Voting===
+*{{support}} - Per Braidenvl.--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 12:19, 4 November 2012 (EST)
+===Candidates===
+#Covenant (post-war)
+#Covenant remnant
 ===Votes===
-*{{Neutral}} --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 18:49, 2 March 2016 (EST)
+*(#2) - Seems like a better name.--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 12:19, 4 November 2012 (EST)
-*{{Support}} - Eh, I'm fine with either outcome but I think it would probably be easier once we renamed it. Really, the "faction" is just an additional descriptor. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 18:57, 2 March 2016 (EST)
+*(#2) - Seems like the actual name.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 12:45, 4 November 2012 (EST)
-*{{Support}} - Let's trim the fat.--[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 18:59, 2 March 2016 (EST)
+*(#2) - The latter accurately conveys that this is a different Covenant, one not at its peak, and also has some [[w:c:starwars:Imperial Remnant|precedent on another established wiki]]. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 15:41, 4 November 2012 (EST)
-*{{Neutral}} - Per Braidenvl, either name works.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 19:57, 2 March 2016 (EST)
+*(#2) - We just have to make sure people understand that "Covenant remnant" is a descriptor, not a proper or canonical name.  --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 16:34, 4 November 2012 (EST)
-*{{Support}} - I can get behind this. Makes it cleaner, neater. Having "faction" in the title isn't necessary.--[[File:Emblem 1.jpg|20px|bottom]][[User:Rusty-112|<span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:13pt;color:blue;">''' Rusty'''</span><span style="font-size:13pt;color:red;">'''-'''</span><span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:13pt;color:blue;">'''112'''</span>]] [[Halopedia:Administrators|<span style="color:red; font-family:Arial">'''''Admin'''''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Rusty-112|<font color="blue">'''comm'''</font>]]</sup> 23:26, 2 March 2016 (EST)
+*(#2) - As per everyone else.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 16:36, 4 November 2012 (EST)
-*{{Support}} - It's fine by me. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 00:01, 3 March 2016 (EST)
+*(#2) - As per all above. --<b>[[User:Tentacletornado|<font color="#2E8B57">''Tent''</font><font color="#3CB371">''acle''</font>]][[User talk:Tentacletornado|<font color="#DAA520">''Torn''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Tentacletornado|<font color="#B8860B">''ado''</font>]]</b> 17:25, 4 November 2012 (EST)
-*{{Support}} - As per my comment above. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 00:21, 3 March 2016 (EST)
+*(#2) - Per above, this Covenant has been completely restructured leadership wise, a title like "Covenant remnant" shows that. [[File:Colonel Grade One.png|20px]][[User:Spartansniper450/IRC Quotes|<span style="color:#000000">''Col.''</span>]] [[User:Spartansniper450|<span style="color:#00416A">Snipes</span>]][[User talk:Spartansniper450|<span style="color:gold">4</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Spartansniper450|<span style="color:silver">50</span>]][[File:Colonel Grade One.png|20px]] 18:06, 4 November 2012 (EST)
+*(#2) - Think it's about time we did something about this. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 08:43, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+I think it's safe to say that we reached a full consensus on the naming. You all are welcome to [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Storm|fix any reference to the Storm in other articles]]. — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  08:49, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+:I can start some of it this afternoon (lunchbreak), starting with the moving of this article, unless someone beats me to it.--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 10:39, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+:That looks like my cue... I'll make a start on it. --<b>[[User:Tentacletornado|<font color="#2E8B57">''Tent''</font><font color="#3CB371">''acle''</font>]][[User talk:Tentacletornado|<font color="#DAA520">''Torn''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Tentacletornado|<font color="#B8860B">''ado''</font>]]</b> 16:55, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+:Oh, I didn't realise when this was done.. Nevermind. --<b>[[User:Tentacletornado|<font color="#2E8B57">''Tent''</font><font color="#3CB371">''acle''</font>]][[User talk:Tentacletornado|<font color="#DAA520">''Torn''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Tentacletornado|<font color="#B8860B">''ado''</font>]]</b> 16:57, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+==Unidentified==
+I am aware this matter is closed, but isn't there a precedent for having articles on an unamed subject to be titled "Unnamed (short discriptor)", as seen here: http://www.halopedia.org/Unnamed ? http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 17:36, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+:They're not "unidentified". ''343i'' has been identifying them as the Covenant but they are not the original Covenant, just a "remnant", surviving group of them- hence "Covenant remnant". Also, as Jugus said earlier, we prefer to avoid having brackets in titles wherever possible.--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 18:44, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+:: Not unidentified, but unnamed. In this case, "Unnamed Covenant Remnant". http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 19:19, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+:::Same difference. They have been identified numerous times as the Covenant (especially on the H4 interactive guide), so they are not "unnamed" either. Putting that in the name wouldn't make any sense as it would confuse readers. "Remnant" is more proper and helps readers understand that they are the Covenant but not the original empire they used to be. Also the note at the top and bottom of the article already covers the reason for the title name. Now if the game identifies them as, I guess "Storm" or otherwise, than we'll move the article accordingly.--'''''[[User:Killamint|<span style="color:Black; font-family: Arial;">Killamint</span>]]''''' <small>['''''[[User talk:Killamint|<font color="Red">Comm</font>]]'''''|'''''[[Special:Contributions/Killamint|<font color="Black">Files</font>]]''''']</small> 19:37, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+::::But those places they are identified as the covenant aren't written from in canon. Out of canon, of course they will be referred to as just the covenant, because there is no other covenant in the game (presumably). I will hold off on this matter more until I play the game. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 22:31, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+== Storm...Wait a minute... ==
+I don't know what the rest of you people have been thinking, but maybe we weren't entirely wrong about calling this faction the "Storm". On Halo Waypoint there are still some things like weapons and infantry types that have the term "Storm" in the title classification. Perhaps it really was going to be called the "Storm", or else not. I guess it's all speculation. Anybody else have any thoughts or confirmed information to share? --[[User:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] ([[User talk:Xamikaze330|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Xamikaze330|contribs]]) 23:26, 6 November 2012 (EST)Xamikaze330
+:From all the gameplay and cutscenes I've seen, the faction is repeatedly referred to as "Covenant" and never as "Storm". [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 00:27, 7 November 2012 (EST)
+:::That's a rather bad reason. Are grunts ever called unggoy in game? There's plenty of canonical information that was at a time or still is only mentioned in promotional stuff, that had that info included in the wiki at the time and still do. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 12:02, 7 November 2012 (EST)
+:::Sometimes, yes. Usually in chatter dialogue. "Do I look like an Unggoy?" [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 12:13, 7 November 2012 (EST)
+::::You get my point, though. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 21:40, 7 November 2012 (EST)
+::To be expected, honestly. As I said, just speculation. Please disregard speculation then. Not sure why though. Or maybe Storm Jackal can be translated as "Assault Jackal". Whatever. --[[User:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] ([[User talk:Xamikaze330|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Xamikaze330|contribs]]) 00:35, 7 November 2012 (EST)Xamikaze330
+==Large Remnant ship==
+[[File:InfinityRam.jpg|300px|thumb|right]]
+I'm not sure where to post this so as this page is connected as the remnant used it I'll post it here.
+In Spartan Ops 'Departure' cutscene the Infinity is seen ramming a Covenant vessel that looks alot like a CCS-battlecruiser, however if you watch the scene in which this happens half a dozen CCS ships actually pass between this unidentified ship and the camera revealing that this vessel is aproximately the size of a Assault Carrier. I do not believe it has been given a page on this wiki yet. [[User talk:VARGR|VARGR]] 20:00, 8 November 2012 (EST)
+:I was thinking that it could be an ORS-class heavy cruiser or a ''Reverence''-class cruiser. ''Infinity'' has a beam (width) of 833 meters, including the large port and starboard hangar bays. By that screenshot alone, factoring in her beam and the bow to amidships of the Remnant flagship, you could roughly estimate that she's approximately 2.5 to 3 kilometers in length. That would put it in the ballpark of an ORS. {{User:Grizzlei/Sig}}
+It could be a [[DDS-class carrier]] perhaps as the size would match. [[User talk:VARGR|VARGR]] 21:41, 8 November 2012 (EST)
+:No. The Essential Visual Guide says that the three carrioer classes (DDS, CAS, and CSO) have very similar appearances. [[User talk:Missing Mandible|Missing Mandible]] 00:57, 9 November 2012 (EST)
+:Ah ok. Should we give it it's own page then as "Unidenified Covenant Remnant ship" then? [[User talk:VARGR|VARGR]] 13:01, 9 November 2012 (EST)
+Based on the size of the two different ships, I'm thinking the large one was the standard ccs battlecruiser.
+And the small ones were light cruisers.
+You also see many small cruisers throughout the campaign. masterclod (not sure how to sign)
+:It might be a covenant supercruiser. [[User talk:Flavius Aetius|Flavius Aetius]] 16:56, 10 November 2012 (EST)
+To sign press ~ four times. No the small ones are CCS battlecruisers as they are the correct scale compared to the Infinity and the exact same design as CCS cruisers seen in the main campaign. Could be the supercruiser perhaps. [[User talk:VARGR|VARGR]] 20:01, 10 November 2012 (EST)
+:How so? A CCS-class is 1.8 kilometers long, one-third the Infinity's length; the larger cruiser is (relatively) correctly scaled compared to the "smaller" ones, which seems to be shorter than the Infinity's width. The ships surrounding the ''Dawn'' in the first campaign level also appears ridiculously small compared to the battlecruiser Noble Six downed in Reach - seriously, how could a single missile rip even an unshielded CCS-class apart?
+:Of course, another possibility is that it's an optical illusion - the ships might simply be very far away or very close to the camera. Either way, Halo 4 has some serious scaling issues, especially with the retconned Dawn.-[[User talk:Kronos101|Kronos101]] 20:10, 10 November 2012 (EST)
+I just played dawn again, they are Definitly not ccs, in forerunner when the elites come down in drop pods you can see a ccs directly above you. It is much bigger so the smaller ones are Definitly light cruisers[[User talk:Masterclod|Masterclod]] 01:12, 11 November 2012 (EST)masterclod
+:While I haven't looked at the one in Forerunner, the ones in Dawn are CCS actually, the discussion above is on the large ship Infinity rammed into in [[S1/Departure|Departure]].[[File:Colonel Grade One.png|20px]][[User:Spartansniper450/IRC Quotes|<span style="color:#000000">''Col.''</span>]] [[User:Spartansniper450|<span style="color:#00416A">Snipes</span>]][[User talk:Spartansniper450|<span style="color:gold">4</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Spartansniper450|<span style="color:silver">50</span>]][[File:Colonel Grade One.png|20px]] 01:03, 11 November 2012 (EST)
-===Comments===
+Look at the one is forerunner and compare it to the cruiser in dawn, it's MUCH bigger. And the one that infinity crashed into IS a ccs. It just looks giant because its surrounded by light cruisers [[User talk:Masterclod|Masterclod]] 01:12, 11 November 2012 (EST)masterclod
-*Contrary to what I said a few months ago, I'm actually fine with either name. "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant" is better from a lore perspective but the current title works better in a wiki context. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 19:00, 2 March 2016 (EST)
-*As a little side note I'm assuming this name change is going to apply to [[Merg Vol's Covenant faction|some nerd]] and [[Sali 'Nyon's Covenant faction|a singer's]] factions as well.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 00:43, 3 March 2016 (EST)
-**It should. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 09:54, 3 March 2016 (EST)
-***Agreed. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 11:17, 3 March 2016 (EST)
-*Is this enough votes to change, or should we wait a bit more. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 11:17, 3 March 2016 (EST)
-**I believe this is sufficient.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 11:22, 3 March 2016 (EST)
-== Final Stand ==
+:I think Masterclod is right about the cruisers in Dawn being smaller. Just take a look at the one John floats through, there's no way that's a full size CCS. As for the one the Infinity rams, that doesn't look like it could be a CCS either, this time because it's too big, given the size estimates of 3km Grizzlei made, almost double the size of a CCS. [[User talk:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:21, 12 November 2012 (EST)
-The Covenant did not evade Sanghelios after the battle of Kamchatka. They were already there. A huge bunch of Jul's storm Sangheili comes from Sanghelios and his fleet was in the Urs system and his troops on Sanghelios as shown in Escalation, the Absolute Record arc. Jul 'Mdama's Covenant had a presence on Sanghelios and as stated in Canon Fodder "what's Urs is ours" the Arbiter has beaten them to a single stronghold by October 27th 2558.--[[User:The Master Builder|The Master Builder]] ([[User talk:The Master Builder|talk]]) 10:13, 30 September 2015 (EDT)
+:The one in dawn is obviously a light cruiser considering it's only 2-3 times the size of the rear half of the FUD. This one has to be a supercruiser or DDS, and it's not a CCS because no known iteration of the CCS has those spikes on it's neck.
+It can't be a Reverence because the Reverence class was 1400 Meters, smaller than a CCS.
+[[User talk:Flavius Aetius|Flavius Aetius]] 12:44, 12 November 2012 (EST)
+  Im Thinking its a ccs, maybe the spikes are just there to show more detail?
+Someone needs to put light cruisers in the ships section, because the remnant seems to have a lot. [[User talk:Masterclod|Masterclod]] 16:18, 16 November 2012 (EST)Masterclod
-Jackal 1: What is happening? Why has the fleet come?
+They really don't as they are CCS. Its the large ship the Infinity hits thats not a CCS as its clearly far to large - aprox the size of a Assault carrier. [[User talk:VARGR|VARGR]] 08:33, 21 November 2012 (EST)
-Jackal 2: Jul 'Mdama is dead! Regroup! Attack Sanghelios!
-[[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - [[Blue Team|Team Chief]] 18:59, 1 November 2015 (EST)