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| == Name == | | == Jumping the gun? == |
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| The new Canon Fodder confirms that this faction is just called the "Covenant" by Jul and his forces. Since that is the official name, should we rename this article "Covenant (Jul 'Mdama's faction)" or something of the like, or is the current name fine enough. - [[User:NightHammer|NightHammer]] ([[User talk:NightHammer|talk]]) 18:16, 1 May 2015 (EDT)
| | Isn't it a bit early to claim the new Storm Grunts and Jackals are 'subspecies'? ''Artistic license'' should come into consideration here regardless of changes to how the enemies actually look. The Godzilla suit of today looks different than the ones in prior films, it's still the same character though. [[User talk:Manwiththegun|Manwiththegun]] 15:35, 13 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| :That could work, and/or list the original Covenant as "Covenant Empire" or "Covenant (empire)" perhaps. - [[User:DarkAuk|DarkAuk]] ([[User talk:DarkAuk|talk]]) 18:26, 1 May 2015 (EDT) | | :''[http://halo.xbox.com/blogs/Headlines/post/2012/05/09/The-Halo-Bulletin-5912.aspx The Halo Bulletin 5.9.12]'' explicitly states that the new Grunts are canonically different from those in previous titles. These differences are not just real-world aesthetic changes; they actually represent another in-universe variation of the Unggoy. Indeed, the majority of the ''Bulletin'' is devoted to discussing and theorizing why the new Grunts look different from those who've come before: ''"As for how the Grunts of past Halo games and Halo 4 compare: Are they different species, a result of natural mutation, selective breeding, or genetic mutation within a single species? We’re not ready to show our cards here just yet. We can say that there are certain species on Earth which exhibit extraordinary differences within their kind (Great Dane vs. Pomeranian) and that there are vastly numerous species similar enough to categorically lump them together (look up Plover)."'' The ''Bulletin'' says that a more concrete explanation for these physical differences will be given in due time. |
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| :: *sigh* the Covenant. Really? Damn it, that just doesn't sit well with me. Surely they could have come up with something more inventive like the Swords of Sanghelios for Thel's faction. Plus it messes with the original Covenant's name. Hell, I would have been happy with the 'New Covenant.' But alas, it isn't up to me :( [[User:SLiD1nG Pr0Xy|SLiD1nG Pr0Xy]] ([[User talk:SLiD1nG Pr0Xy|talk]]) 20:03, 1 May 2015 (EDT) | | :The morphological variation among the Kig-Yar has been explained both [http://halo.xbox.com/en-us/Universe/Detail/the-jackals/24dc0ecc-8cf0-473a-aae3-266fe6019d61 here] and in the revised ''Encyclopedia'' as the result of divergent evolution on different moons, planetoids, and asteroids in the Y'Deio system. For example, the Skirmishers come from a satellite with higher gravity than Eayn, causing them to evolve much heavier muscles than their kin. Considering that the straight-beaked Jackals of ''Halo 2'', the slope-beaked Jackals of ''Halo 3'' through ''Anniversary'', and the dromaeosaur-like Skirmishers all belong to the same species, it isn't much of a stretch to assume that the Jackals in ''Halo 4'' represent yet another phenotype; the real-world Galapagos finches have a similar, (though less extreme), degree of morphological diversity. |
| ::: Does it really change anything? Remember [[Zef 'Trahl]]'s words: "A hundred warlords claim they rule the Covenant, but each merely rules a small faction". The fact that they use the term "[[Covenant]]" over [[Covenant remnants]] is no big revelation. It's been established ever since we learned the concept. I see no reason to change the name. From my reading, it doesn't really change anything. Heck, in our article on the [[Swords of Sanghelios]], it outright says that Jul's faction considers itself the legitimate successor to the Covenant. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] ([[User talk:SFH|talk]]) 20:41, 1 May 2015 (EDT)
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| :Perhaps just "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant". Leave out the faction part? Either that or we could just leave it as it is as I'm not sure about something like "Covenant (Post-war)".[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith-venator Wavingstrider</span>]] [[File:Fett helmet.jpg|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Commlink</span>]]) 20:43, 1 May 2015 (EDT) | | :Consider society on Earth prior to the Halo Array's activation. Several distinct species and subspecies of the ''homo'' genus were all lumped together as humanity, like the aforementioned [[Wikipedia:Plover|plover]]. It is entirely possible that the Unggoy and the Kig-Yar societies are structured in a similar manner, with different species of the same genus all categorized as the same race. Overall, think of all these aesthetic changes in a Watsonian manner rather than a Doylist one. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 17:34, 13 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| ::"Covenant (Post-war)" may be a more apt title for the Covenant remnants page, since it appears that all the separate factions are still considered part of a Covenant "bloc", while "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant" would more accurately describe this faction without creating a notion that it is the only group calling itself the "Covenant" in the post-war era.--[[User:Cyrannian|Cyrannian]] ([[User talk:Cyrannian|talk]]) 22:28, 1 May 2015 (EDT)
| | I'm interested in the idea that the variations in Jackal/Grunt morphology don't conform to Earthly taxonomic conventions - after all, these are alien species, and their evolutionary history might be very weird indeed. It would add a whole new interesting layer to the fiction behind these things - and plus, anything's a better explanation than just saying "Well, we got tired of the old Grunts and Jackals so we made ourselves some brand-new ones." [[User talk:SPARTAN-347|SPARTAN-347]] 22:47, 13 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| :::Man, I really wish Grim just went with "New Covenant" or something (or at least told us what the UNSC calls Jul's faction). I'd love to get rid of the "faction" part in the name. "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant" might be the best at the moment, but then it kind of feels pointless since this is still a Covenant faction and the current title already accurately describes that. So, like I said, perhaps leaving as it is is the best idea for now, unless anyone has a better idea. - [[User:NightHammer|NightHammer]] ([[User talk:NightHammer|talk]]) 23:51, 1 May 2015 (EDT) | | :Fair enough, I just was curious as to whether these alternations were artistic license or not. [[User talk:Manwiththegun|Manwiththegun]] 16:54, 14 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| ::::Yeah, I agree with NightHammer. I think we should leave it for now. The New Covenant would have been great... - [[User:SLiD1nG Pr0Xy|SLiD1nG Pr0Xy]] ([[User talk:SLiD1nG Pr0Xy|talk]]) 00:36, 2 May 2015 (EDT)
| | == The Storm. == |
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| It does strike me as an odd choice. The Prophets are not part of Jul's faction, so who do the Sangheili have a Covenant with? Jul doesn't seem to have much regard for the non-Sangheili members of his group, and he doesn't follow the Great Journey. Neither do they now believe the Halos will cause salvation. So why consider his faction the original Covenant? "The Storm" was already a different type of name, and Specops once had some nice ideas with "Blood Covenant" and "True Covenant".
| | They aren't "Covenant Storm", they are just "The Storm".[[User talk:ArchedThunder|ArchedThunder]] 22:07, 13 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| In regards to the title, we can keep it the same; it establishes that it's his group and that it's a distinct faction among others. Same reason why "Heretics" was renamed to "[[Sesa 'Refumee's heretic faction]]", because they're likely not the only heretics in the Covenant's history. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 00:54, 2 May 2015 (EDT)
| | == Elite Changes == |
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| :Frankly, I've never understood the community's yearning for Jul's Covenant to have a unique name. His followers see themselves as the legitimate continuation of the original body, which is why they've never been called anything but "the Covenant" in official media, in-universe or out. Plenty of ''Waypoint'' forum-goers are acting like the name (or lack thereof) is some big revelation: It isn't. "Storm Covenant" and - *retch* - "Covenant '''R'''emnant" are nothing more than fanonyms.
| | Anyone note any changes to the Sangheili physiology? The Grunts and Jackals are pretty obvious, but the Elite look the same. <font style="papyrus">[[User:Bioniclepluslotr|<font color="lime">'''Bioniclepluslotr'''</font>]]</font> 10:02, 19 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| :As for the article title, I agree with Tuckerscreator. Jul's faction is just of many groups identified by its members as "The Official Covenant<sup>TM</sup>", despite the ''actual'' hegemony being long gone. Nothing sets Jul's forces apart from other self-identified "Covenants" (''i.e.'' Merg Vol's) except narrative significance. The title should stay as-is. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 12:19, 2 May 2015 (EDT)
| | == Storm Ranks == |
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| ::Personally, I'm fine with the faction being called the "Covenant", as well. I was thinking it would be easier, from an editor's standpoint, if it was called something else to distinguish it from the old Covenant. Regardless, I'm fine with keeping the title as it is. - [[User:NightHammer|NightHammer]] ([[User talk:NightHammer|talk]]) 18:06, 2 May 2015 (EDT)
| | The Storm is not apart of The Covenant, and should not have it's ranks intermingled with Covenant Ranks. The Storm should have their own category of ranks like 'Refumee's Heretics do. |
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| :::Covenant Empire (Jul 'Mdama) or something like that would be cool for me. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] ([[User talk:Alertfiend|talk]]) 22:53, 28 August 2015 (EDT)
| | --[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 23:28, 22 September 2012 (EDT) |
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| :::Its not an empire though. Jul's Covenant is post-war and considered a terrorist/pirate group rather than the full fledged army of the Original Covenant Empire. Two very different groups. I think the title should be left as Jul Mdama's Covenant Faction. [[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 21:10, 4 October 2015 (EDT) | | :Refumee's Heretics didn't have any rank system. And the Storm are likely to recycle familiar ranks to better organise themselves following the fall of the Covenant.— <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 23:33, 22 September 2012 (EDT) |
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| I was rereading ''Halo: Escalation'' Volume 1 (#1-#6) and came across the term "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant" (on [[:File:JulMdama Escalation.jpg|this]] [[:File:Halsey Escalation.jpg|page]]). Don't misunderstand me, I know it's just used descriptively. But I feel it would be simpler and more accurate. After all, they call themselves the Covenant, so we could at least drop the 'faction' from the title. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 14:07, 13 February 2016 (EST)
| | They had a crude ranking system. Heretic Minors and Heretic Majors. And this Storm faction seems like it doesn't utilize Covenant Ranks at all save Zealot. Also, if you read The Thursday War Preview thing on Amazon which turned out to leak the majority of the novel, these elites are from a Sangheili colony world that was not apart of the Covenant. They actually refer to Sanghelios as the Old World. As per the Encylopedia basically all Sangheili that serve in the Covenant came from Sanghelios. The Covenant ranks are not familiar to them. This is why I am saying it would make more sense to put them as their own category because they have no place to be mingled between Covenant ranks. |
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| :I agree. In addition, "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant faction" has also been used in official sources (can't remember the source right now, though). Regardless, I do think we should rename it. I've already started referring to the faction as "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant" on several articles. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 16:40, 13 February 2016 (EST)
| | --[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 10:03, 23 September 2012 (EDT) |
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| The word faction in the title only takes up extra space and is not necessary since the proper name of the faction is "The Covenant". I suggest we rename it.--[[User:The Master Builder|The Master Builder]] ([[User talk:The Master Builder|talk]]) 19:07, 29 February 2016 (EST)
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| :If only for its redundancy as the Covenant itself is a faction should it be removed. Jul 'Mdama's organization is more or less considered by many throughout the universe itself, by the series creators, and by the fan community as the continuation or the revival of the original Covenant. {{User:Helianthus/Sig}} | | '''As I posted in this [[Talk:Sangheili|talk page]].''' |
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| ::Let's put it to a vote. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 18:54, 2 March 2016 (EST)
| | ''Since the "Storm" is only a splinter faction of the former-Covenant (which has now broken up and disseminated since the Great War) and, in certain aspects, completely different from the Covenant military altogether; it only makes sense if we create and organize a separate rank structure for the newly specific military roles Storm has introduced. Granted, some are, in retrospect to the time-era, related to titles given by the Covenant from before (suck as the Ranger specialists), they are still different.'' Killjax 13:54, 23 September 2012 (EDT) |
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| ===Votes===
| | Exactly.--[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 15:00, 23 September 2012 (EDT) |
| *{{Neutral}} --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 18:49, 2 March 2016 (EST)
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| *{{Support}} - Eh, I'm fine with either outcome but I think it would probably be easier once we renamed it. Really, the "faction" is just an additional descriptor. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 18:57, 2 March 2016 (EST)
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| *{{Support}} - Let's trim the fat.--[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 18:59, 2 March 2016 (EST)
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| *{{Neutral}} - Per Braidenvl, either name works.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 19:57, 2 March 2016 (EST)
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| *{{Support}} - I can get behind this. Makes it cleaner, neater. Having "faction" in the title isn't necessary.--[[File:Emblem 1.jpg|20px|bottom]][[User:Rusty-112|<span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:13pt;color:blue;">''' Rusty'''</span><span style="font-size:13pt;color:red;">'''-'''</span><span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:13pt;color:blue;">'''112'''</span>]] [[Halopedia:Administrators|<span style="color:red; font-family:Arial">'''''Admin'''''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Rusty-112|<font color="blue">'''comm'''</font>]]</sup> 23:26, 2 March 2016 (EST)
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| *{{Support}} - It's fine by me. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 00:01, 3 March 2016 (EST)
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| *{{Support}} - As per my comment above. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 00:21, 3 March 2016 (EST)
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| ===Comments=== | | == Covenant Loyalists? == |
| *Contrary to what I said a few months ago, I'm actually fine with either name. "Jul 'Mdama's Covenant" is better from a lore perspective but the current title works better in a wiki context. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 19:00, 2 March 2016 (EST)
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| *As a little side note I'm assuming this name change is going to apply to [[Merg Vol's Covenant faction|some nerd]] and [[Sali 'Nyon's Covenant faction|a singer's]] factions as well.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 00:43, 3 March 2016 (EST)
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| **It should. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 09:54, 3 March 2016 (EST)
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| ***Agreed. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 11:17, 3 March 2016 (EST)
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| *Is this enough votes to change, or should we wait a bit more. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 11:17, 3 March 2016 (EST)
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| **I believe this is sufficient.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 11:22, 3 March 2016 (EST)
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| == Final Stand ==
| | Since they are led by Elites and follow the teachings of the Prophets, wouldn't this make them Covenant Loyalists? Maybe they're the remnants of the Loyalists? --[[User talk:ADinoSupremacist|ADinoSupremacist]] 21:10, 23 September 2012 (EDT) |
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| The Covenant did not evade Sanghelios after the battle of Kamchatka. They were already there. A huge bunch of Jul's storm Sangheili comes from Sanghelios and his fleet was in the Urs system and his troops on Sanghelios as shown in Escalation, the Absolute Record arc. Jul 'Mdama's Covenant had a presence on Sanghelios and as stated in Canon Fodder "what's Urs is ours" the Arbiter has beaten them to a single stronghold by October 27th 2558.--[[User:The Master Builder|The Master Builder]] ([[User talk:The Master Builder|talk]]) 10:13, 30 September 2015 (EDT)
| | No. They are labeled "Storm" for a reason. If they were "Loyalists", 343i would of expanded upon that explanation. I guess theoretically they are, but its a slightly different meaning in this case. |
| | Killjax 22:33, 23 September 2012 (EDT) |
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| Jackal 1: What is happening? Why has the fleet come?
| | At most they're a Loyalist faction--[[Special:Contributions/210.56.88.111|210.56.88.111]] 00:17, 24 September 2012 (EDT) |
| Jackal 2: Jul 'Mdama is dead! Regroup! Attack Sanghelios!
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| [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - [[Blue Team|Team Chief]] 18:59, 1 November 2015 (EST) | | IGN labeled them elites that follow the Prophet's teaching. IGN is also the first three letters of ignorance. The Thursday War confirms these elites have nothing to do with the Prophets. But I guess we'll have to wait till October 2nd to make that official.--[[User talk:AvuMedTelcam|AvuMedTelcam]] 12:43, 24 September 2012 (EDT) |
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| | == Whatever happened to the Jiralhanae? == |
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| | I don't know what the rest of you people are thinking, but does anyone have any idea about whatever happened to the Jiralhanae? I know they didn't just die off or get hunted down in the last days of the Covenant Civil War by the Sangheili, but how come I we haven't seen any sign that the Brutes are coming back in ''Halo 4''? I mean, the Gravity Hammer is making a return, but why not the Brutes? Any thoughts, ideas, or clues, anyone? --[[User talk:Xamikaze330|Xamikaze330]] 19:38, 27 September 2012 (EDT)Xamikaze330 |