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| {{Archived|multi=Archives<br />[[/Archive 1|1]] • [[/Archive 2|2]] • [[/Archive 3|3]] • [[/Archive 4|4]] • [[/Archive 5|5]]}} | | {{Archived|multi=Archives<br />[[/Archive 1|1]] • [[/Archive 2|2]] • [[/Archive 3|3]] • [[/Archive 4|4]] • [[/Archive 5|5]]}} |
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| ==Reach Cameo==
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| Should we change the appearance section to say that [[Master Chief]] does appear in [[Halo Reach]]? Since in the last cutscene of the [[Pillar of Autumn]], you can see Chief for a brief second.[[User:Spartan Chin|Spartan Chin]] ([[User talk:Spartan Chin|talk]]) 14:13, July 26, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Ok yea I have been wondering how to trim some parts. The opening should be 1 paragraph at the very least for example.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 19:12, 4 February 2019 (EST) | | :Ok yea I have been wondering how to trim some parts. The opening should be 1 paragraph at the very least for example.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 19:12, 4 February 2019 (EST) |
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| ::Good call with the "September 25" note. Unnecessary and redundant. I took it out.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 19:22, 4 February 2019 (EST)TheEld
| | :Good call with the "September 25" note. Unnecessary and redundant. I took it out.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 19:22, 4 February 2019 (EST)TheEld |
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| :::What about splitting the early life and training into an "Early life of John-117" article? Wikipedia does this with notable people in cases where the main article would be far too long. Here is a [[Wikipedia:Early life of Augustus|good example]] of the practice.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 19:27, 4 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::I would be 100% opposed to doing that, as I am extremely proud of the work I've put into this and think the article deserves to be comprehensive and show off the full range of who the character is and where they have been. Splitting that off would make it less likely that all of that important material would ever be seen. I want someone to be able to pull up the Halopedia entry on the Master Chief and to suddenly see all this backstory they may not have been aware of. I want the images of John as a child and teen to catch their eye and pique their interest. I have tried my best to keep things focused only on John here and what is important for each section. The result, I believe, is not only as accurate as possible but also aesthetically pleasing, allowing multiple images to be shown off naturally without cramping things. I don't think we need to expect every single article to be read in one sitting. The individual sections do that well enough and the opening paragraph (which I've yet to get to) should also serve as the perfect brief overview of everything to follow. These should be complete resources that someone can go to in order to look up details, all of which are preserved. Obviously I'm not in charge here but were such a thing to happen I know that I'd lose all motivation to continue to update this and other articles.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 19:32, 4 February 2019 (EST)TheEld
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| :::I don't believe the comparison to Wikipedia and biographies of real people is applicable because in that case we literally could find out what those people did every minute of every day, so to speak. That isn't the case here. This is a fictional character that we only learn of through what canon resources put out. All of that should be documented.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 19:35, 4 February 2019 (EST)TheEld
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| :::One more note in my defense: I had all the pre-CE history finished on here back in August (Except for SILENT STORM stuff, of course). Cia told me it was good :) https://mobile.twitter.com/cia391/status/1026111493950058496
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| ::::Not all of them needs to be documented; just the material facts. Take for example [[John-117#Facing_Tango_Company|Facing Tango Company]]. It's too fleshed out to the most trivial of details. The biggest offender in that section is this line: ''"When all the stun grenades went off, confusion and panic swept the camp."'' This entire ordeal with Tango Company could be easily summarised in one concise paragraph.
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| ::::I'm agreeable to Spartacus' idea. Please don't think of it as detracting the worth of your efforts you've poured into this article. We're presenting the details from a historian's perspective (like the CAA Factbook) and not from a biographer's: this article reads like the latter. Just as Spartacus suggested, anything that pits the article delving into unnecessary details ought to be its own page (subject to notability, of course). — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 23:55, 4 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::::If anyone wants to take a crack at making improvements I'd certainly have no issue there. I guess I thought this was supposed to be a biography (and still do)[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 00:09, 5 February 2019 (EST)TheEld
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| :''(reset indent)'' While I agree that the article does get a bit long with this much content, I can also see the other side (including all the detail canon material has on the character). If that info isn't here, it's good to have it ''somewhere'' on the wiki in the name of comprehensiveness; and in any case I tend to be of the opinion that too much info is better than too little, as long as that information is accurate. However, if I were to present an alternative to having all that detail here in the biography, a lot of it (especially when it comes to John's participation in battles) could be described in the relevant battle articles, with the pertinent sections on this page being more brief and focusing more tightly on John's role; links to said battle articles would obviously be provided.
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| :As for the opening paragraph, I think it's fine as it is. Five paragraphs is still manageable as an introduction for a character we know a lot about, and the content itself is concisely written. Wikipedia, for example, routinely has introductory sections this long or longer. --[[User:Tacitus|Tacitus]] ([[User talk:Tacitus|talk]]) 00:19, 5 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::*thumbs up* Well, I will keep plugging away here. I'm trying to get this article to be completely finished before Infinite comes out. If anyone wants to tighten things up where appropriate, proofread, etc. that would be great.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 00:29, 5 February 2019 (EST)TheEld
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| :I'm inclined to agree with splitting the biography into separate articles, similar to how Wikipedia does it with notable people. Wouldn't be without precedent, we already have one (albeit an outdated one) for Covenant history. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 18:00, 5 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::I beg you guys not to do this. It is entirely unnecessary and will have to then be done to any longstanding character I try to get to FA status as I have done with John here. I'll be honest and I say part of me is quite resentful that when so much needs to be updated here we're worried about undoing work so that it will never be seen. Again, this is of course not up to me but I want to express my frsutration here regardless.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 18:34, 5 February 2019 (EST)TheEld
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| :::If the length of the article is the problem, then cia391 was presented with a cool idea recently whereby sections could be divided among tabs on the same page, rather than seperate pages. I think this would be a great solution. [[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 18:36, 5 February 2019 (EST)TheEld
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| :::Oh dear, I've been working on edits to the biography page, primarily fleshing out the sections detailed in First Strike but also cleaning up some of the sections within the games. Working on a separate page I hope to integrate what I've got once I reach a standard I'm satisfied with. Hope I'm not stepping on any toes, particularly regarding TheEld, as know you've done a lot for the page already. [[User:ArcticGhostXCV|ArcticGhostXCV]] ([[User talk:ArcticGhostXCV|talk]]) 18:46, 5 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::::No, that's great! The First Strike events do need yo be fleshed out still so tthank you! I just hope we can keep avoid ssplitting this into two pages. I really like the tabs idea.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 18:53, 5 February 2019 (EST)TheEld
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| ::::::Awesome! I've already completed the sections regarding John's activities between Halo CE and Halo 2, namely the raid on Ascendant Justice, return to Reach, Eridanus Secundus and Operation: First Strike. Just wanted to ensure that I wasn't doing something you had already started working on :D and yeah I'd be interested in seeing how the tabs could work.[[User:ArcticGhostXCV|ArcticGhostXCV]] ([[User talk:ArcticGhostXCV|talk]]) 18:59, 5 February 2019 (EST)
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| [Reset] No one's questioning the work you put in to this, Eld. The effort you've put in here is amazing and really dedicated, and no one's advocating to remove it. One thing I feel we should remember is that a wiki's primary purpose is to be informative to those who don't know about the subject, and I feel like the article as it is right now may be a little bit imposing/ intimidating to new fans or those not particularly well versed in the lore. If people aren't reading the books, it's likely they probably won't be wanting to read a novel-length wiki page about the character (and to be clear, this is not a criticism of you or your work, the article as it stands now is amazing). The suggestion to split it up would simply put it into different sections to ensure that every area can be fleshed out appropriately. Imagine if the Battle of Earth page also included all the in-depth info from the Battle of Mombasa, for example. It's more an issue of (at least, for me) of when detail overweights user accessibility. Splitting up the article into, say "John-117/ Early Life", "John-117/Human-Covenant War" and "John-117/Post-War" would simply involve taking the text you've wrote and placing it across those pages, with the main John-117 page giving brief overviews of those subjects and links to the more in-depth articles for those who want to read it.
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| If I were a new fan to the series and I wanted to get the gist of who the Master Chief is, I'm not sure I'd want to read this entire article as it stands now. It's a problem I've often found on some wikis like Wookiepedia and it's Legends pages (see: Darth Vader). This isn't meant to be an attack or anything, it's just that at this point John has a massive history and dozens of stories, and splitting the page may be a way of simply helping with accessibility. But at the same time, I would never want to get rid of the work you've put in so far either, because you've been doing a great job. [[User:BaconShelf|BaconShelf]] ([[User talk:BaconShelf|talk]]) 19:00, 5 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::Do you think we could split the biography portion of the page into sections that can be flipped through with tabs? Each section could include its own concise summary of events as well above the detailed breakdowns (training, Covenant War, CE events, FS events, H2 events, etc.) Funnily enough, pages like Vader's on Wookipedia were actually an inspiration for me to try to improve this. Oops, lol.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 19:06, 5 February 2019 (EST)TheEld
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| ::::Source for this idea:https://twitter.com/cia391/status/1092557327725666307
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| :::::My only concerns with such an implementation would be the ease of use for those on mobile. I'm not sure how well tabber works on phone devices. [[User:BaconShelf|BaconShelf]] ([[User talk:BaconShelf|talk]]) 20:12, 5 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::::Good thinking. It works well enough for when we have two tabs in an infobox. Just open up [[CENTURION-class Mjolnir]] on mobile, for example.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 20:18, 5 February 2019 (EST)TheEld
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| :(Indent reset) Its an idea for later, I am keeping it in mind for after the merger of the wikis. Its a huge undertaking we need full attention on to do right, and thats assuming its accepted. Cause it does have issues that make me not wanna push it. (A common complaint is it breaks pages)
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| :That said I am in favor of "John-117/Early life" so on pages. We do it with other pages pages, and well this is one wiki page that could do it quite well.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 20:20, 5 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::I also want to note a concept I call the "Opening scroll dilemma". For articles long enough to have sections in it, the opening lines should only be 1 paragraph long that goes over the very basic information on the character or thing. If the info is to much and needs to be more than 1 paragraph a new section is made called "Overview" that goes over what would be in those other paragraphs.
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| ::The reasoning here is that it helps make the start of articles easier to digest to the average reader. The bigger the opening section, the quicker they will leave the page cause its harder to follow.
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| ::You can see this logic in most if the armor variant pages. The opening lines tells the very basic info, while the following paragraphs go into detail about it.
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| ::Its nothing against the work mind you. Just to be 100% clear, I been very open about how much I love how much this page has improved. This is just stuff to make it better and easier on the readers.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 20:53, 5 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::Totally. I haven't touched the opening blurb on the page yet. That's all been there since before I started messing with it.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 21:02, 5 February 2019 (EST)TheEld
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| ::::Oh I know, I was just getting it noted here cause the talk page is about trimming and felt it may help in the overall purpose of the topic here.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 21:06, 5 February 2019 (EST)
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| (Reset indent again) Tabs (or Tabber) is not a suitable solution for an article as it is designed for snippet content. It wouldn't really resolve the length/trimming issue as readers would still be bombarded with a overdetailed content. Furthermore, Tabs would be unusable once it goes beyond five tabs (especially in Mobile theme where it looks squashed and ugly). We've tried it in the past with some articles (I believe it's either MJOLNIR or some related article to MJOLNIR... can't remember which one). The end result was that it was squished and inaccessible to general users, not to mention ugly. Granted, Tabs now works better in Mobile theme now than it did a few years back but it still wouldn't be a suitable solution for overdetailed articles once it goes beyond five tabs or so.
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| {{Article quote|Splitting up the article into, say "John-117/ Early Life", "John-117/Human-Covenant War" and "John-117/Post-War" would simply involve taking the text you've wrote and placing it across those pages, with the main John-117 page giving brief overviews of those subjects and links to the more in-depth articles for those who want to read it.}}
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| The current solution that works best to my mind would be what Spartacus and BaconShelf proposed: the biographical content would be relocated to a subpage or an article of its own. I prefer the latter as it follows Wikipedia's presentation style and we could use this as a precedent for future articles with overdetailed content. It would also help to [[Halopedia:Manual_of_Style#Article_focus_and_scope|balance the details out and put some focus back]] into the article (funnily enough, John-117 was used as an example of a concise article when we updated the MoS in 2015). Furthermore, it will encourage editors such as TheEld to introduce more biographical-style content into the wiki for other fleshed out characters. If written well, it could be a Featured Article on its own. There's quite a number of pros over cons for going down this route, so I believe this would be a great solution to implement.— <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 22:20, 5 February 2019 (EST)
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| :Agreed. Personally, not a fan of tabs seen on some wikis. Moving forward, I think the best plan for lengthy and detailed articles would be to split them into relevant smaller articles. E.g., let's say in 5 years we have significantly more information on the Sangheili. We could divide that article into "History of the Sangheili", "Culture of the Sangheili", etc. as Wikipedia does now for lengthy articles. In addition, I prefer Spartacus's suggested naming scheme. "Early life of John-117" or "Military career of John-117". --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 23:12, 5 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::I think this naming system works better than the one I proposed actually. I can't think of one for the post-war era however.[[User:BaconShelf|BaconShelf]] ([[User talk:BaconShelf|talk]]) 03:49, 6 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::That would just be included under "Military career of John-117". As others have said above, adopting this style will allow us to have a precedent established for other characters who have massive articles. I could list out some other pages where this may be needed soon.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 11:27, 6 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::Okay let's split this up, lol.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 19:54, 6 February 2019 (EST)TheEld
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| ::::The only problem I see with the suggestion as it stands is that John's military career is almost the entirety of his life, and the rest only needs one article. I think smaller divisions will be necessary if we don't want one normal-ish article and one huge article when this is split. Also, is there a policy about language on talk pages? Also also: just curious, Eld, when you're going to finish up with the section on Silent Storm. The fact that only about a chapter's worth of stuff is missing is kinda bugging me. I don't mean to rush or insult you, I'm just a little completionist/neat-freaky about that sort of thing.--[[User:D9328|D9328]] ([[User talk:D9328|talk]]) 21:46, 6 February 2019 (EST)d9328
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| :::::Yeah, I need to get to that still. Been putting it off because it is somewhat confusing where I stopped because Denning seems to have mixed up what Kelly and Linda are doing in the scene. Right now I want to get Halsey's article updated as far as SILENT STORM stuff and then go back and finish John's there.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 21:52, 6 February 2019 (EST)TheEld
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| ''(reset indent)'' As D9328 mentioned, there's very little info on John's life ''outside'' of his military career, so I'm questioning if "Military career of John-117" would be the best option for the detailed side article. What if there was just one detailed biography under a title like "Biography of John-117"? This would also make it easier to use the same format for other pages and consequently, keep track other such pages should they become necessary later on (a category for them would be useful as well). I'm aware an overall biography page would also run into the issue of being extremely long, but at least users would know what they were in for (unlike here, where the length and level of detail makes reading the biography an intimidating task; someone looking to learn more about John's life doesn't necessarily need to know what exact type of weapon and number of magazines he was carrying at any given time). --[[User:Tacitus|Tacitus]] ([[User talk:Tacitus|talk]]) 06:24, 7 February 2019 (EST)
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| :No issues with a biography page. We could place it as a subpage (i.e. John-117/Biography), just like how we manage with the weapons and levels articles (e.g. the gameplay/walkthrough content have been moved to their respective weapons and levels articles' subpage). We could also insert a header/banner at the top of the page to inform readers that it is a biographical article and that the encyclopedic version is available in a given link. This would be a fine addition to our Layout guide as well as to the Manual of Style. — <span style="font-size:14px; font-family:Arial;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 10:35, 7 February 2019 (EST)
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| ==Pending the current reverts 15/04/2019==
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| A like on a tweet does not imply GEN3 sadly, unless you have a source that says otherwise.
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| And the Interactive Strategy Game stuff is very suspect atm due to how it breaks canon in numerous places. Blue team at Castle Base, an Arbiter in several places(That has undeniable proof sadly now), Kusanagis age being 17+ despite her being a Smart AI. I'd rather make sure we have all the facts down before we start adding the info to pages like this.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 12:51, April 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| :I'll get rid of the GEN3 stuff but surely you saw that I moved all the Strategy Game stuff into a note, right? You also just deleted, surely by accident, information from TFOR's prologue. :) The section now doesn't mention the HAVOK nuke being planted at the staging area. [[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 13:26, April 15, 2019 (EDT)TheEld
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| ::Ok I added that back in from the prologue, yep it was an accident cause I thought I moved stuff around in a second edit (It didnt save my second edit wah).-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 13:36, April 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::And you don't think the other relevant information can be included in a note which describes its technically unknown canon status?[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 13:40, April 15, 2019 (EDT)TheEld
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| ::::The Strategy Game has Blue Team plant the bomb and then retreat. You can [https://www.halopedia.org/Jericho_VII_(level) read that here]. Which does really put stuff into question.
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| ::::Right now however I am going though all the Strategy game stuff. And I mean all of it (sans Website stuff that died) so the info is recorded on the wiki in pages that deal with this sorta thing.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 13:59, April 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::It doesn't say that. :)[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 14:30, April 15, 2019 (EDT)TheEld
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| (Indent reset) ''...The only chance for UNSC victory is to plant a tactical nuke in the heart of the Covenant staging area. All surviving UNSC personnel must return to their protected point of origin before detonating the warhead. The Master Chief, Sierra-117, will lead Blue Team on this mission...'' - Kusanagi
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| Essentially according to Kusanagi, the narrator, and the mission itself Blue team plants the nuke, which we know doesnt happen as it was Red Team.-[[User:CIA391|CIA391]] ([[User talk:CIA391|talk]]) 14:40, April 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::That doesn't say Blue Team planted the nuke. It just says S-117 led Blue Team on this mission.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 14:59, April 15, 2019 (EDT)TheEld
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| == Splitting this page up ==
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| Alright, this discussion has been had before so I'm gonna save the details - see the above sections if you want the full reading. Over the next day, I'll be splitting the current biography section up into sub-pages, as this article is now of sufficient length that it's regularly causing my browser to freeze and crash if I try editing the page or type in text. I have a pretty beefy PC, so I can't imagine what this is like on lower-end machines.
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| I'll be splitting up the page as follows;
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| *'''[[John-117/Early life|Early life]]''' - Focusing on John's early life prior to his conscription in the SPARTAN program, as well as his training and actions against the insurrection prior to his acquisition of the MJOLNIR suit and first engagement against the Covenant.
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| *'''[[John-117/Human-Covenant War|Human-Covenant War]]''' - Focusing on John's wartime actions from his first acquiring the suit at Chi Ceti to the end of 2551.
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| *'''[[John-117/Late War|Late War]]''' - Focusing on John's actions in the final year of 2552, covering Fall of Reach, the games and First Strike etc.
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| *'''[[John-117/Post-War|Post-War]]''' - Focusing on John's actions in Halo 4 and everything in the post-war era.
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| *'''[[John-117/Legacy|Legacy]]''' - Focusing on John's overall legacy into the future of the Halo universe (This is CIA's suggestion, it could end up combined with Post-War depending on how things go)
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| *'''[[John-117/Gallery|Gallery]]''' - A gallery page for fully showcasing the extensive image collection we have for John.
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| The current biography page will be replaced with a shorter section giving a briefer overview of the character (IE a general overview does not need to record the specific times to the minute a certain action happened, or every minute detail of a given event). There will be a full notice placed at the top of this section informing users of the full biography pages should they want the extensive reading.
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| At this point, this is a matter more of making the page useable for lower-end PCs and internet connections, which should always supersede what information is available. If you can't physically load or maintain the page, this information and writing is useless. But to re-iterate, ''the current information will not be deleted - it will be split into several sub-pages to make browsing the website more accessible to users, and easier to maintain for the editors.''
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| This overhaul will be carried out over the coming weekend, but it's only fair to give some warning so if you have any questions, feedback or concerns on how we plan to carry this out, please leave them below. Additionally, help in writing a briefer overview of the character for the main page would be very much welcome. [[User:BaconShelf|BaconShelf]] ([[User talk:BaconShelf|talk]]) 12:03, May 1, 2020 (EDT)
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| :At the time of writing, the Human-Covenant War section is still ''extremely'' unwieldly, thus I've edited the list above. There is now a separate "Late War" article to detail his actions from 2552 onwards.[[User:BaconShelf|BaconShelf]] ([[User talk:BaconShelf|talk]]) 11:58, May 2, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::Just make sure you update the main page with summaries of the info on the more detailed pages so it doesn't just stay the extremely unfinished mess of misinformation it was back in 2018 when I started updating it.[[User:TheEld|TheEld]] ([[User talk:TheEld|talk]]) 12:40, May 2, 2020 (EDT)TheEld
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