Editing Talk:Hellspartan project

==Deletion (Closed)==
Personally, I don't think such SPARTAN program exist because of the following reasons:
#Seeing that the Hellspartan EVA action figures were exclusive only to those visiting the San Diego Comic-Con 2008, McFarlane needed something to excite the fans and introduced their version of the SPARTAN program.
#The added information about the new SPARTAN program is not canon as it was not supervised by Bungie or Microsoft. That said, the information was added only for the "awesomeness" and for the Comic-Con.

===Voting===
#{{Support}}- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 15:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
#{{Support}}- Agreed. This is not needed.--[[User talk:Jugus|Jugus]] 15:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
#{{Support}} - Subtank took all the words out of my mouth ^_^ -  [[User:Nicmavr|<span style="color:Black; font-weight:bold; font-family:Arial">Nìcmávr</span>]] <sup>([[User Talk:Nicmavr|<span style="color:black; font-weight:bold">Tálk</span>]])</sup> 15:36, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
#{{Oppose}} - Should we not accept Hod Rumnt (Prophet of Mercy) or Sesa 'Refumee (Sangheili Heretic Leader) as their real names because it is also only seen on back of the action figures? At the most, an ambiguous canon warning at the top should be used in favor of simply deleting this [semi] in-universe item. [[User:Grizzlei|CommanderTony]]
#{{Support}} - There is hardly enough evidence for this to be allowed <span style="color:blue; font-family:Lucida Sans Unicode; font-size:100%">'''Captain'''</span> [[User:Mcloganator|<span style="color:pink; font-family:Lucida Sans Unicode; font-size: 100%">'''MIC'''</span>]] 17:30, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
#{{Support}}- Clearly an article for deletion. --<tt><sup><font color="#7BA05B">[[User:Odysseas-spartan-53|Odysseas]]-[[User talk:Odysseas-spartan-53|Spartan]]</font></sup>[[Special:Contributions/Odysseas-spartan-53|<font color="#4B5320"><font size="5">53</font></font>]]</tt> 15:49, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
#{{Oppose}} - Yes, it was probably made to increase the 'awesome' factor of this action figure, but there is no reason why it shouldn't be left with an ambiguous canon notice on top of the  page --[[User talk:Necrosis103|Necrosis103]] 13:32, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
#{{Neutral}} - Will wait for the letter. <b>[[User:Smoke.|<span style="color:Gray; font-weight:bold; font-family:Tahoma Small Cap">Smoke</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Smoke.|<span style="color:Gray; font-weight:bold; font-family:Tahoma Small Cap">Sound off!</span>]]</sup></b> 03:29, September 28, 2009 (UTC)
#{{Support}} Yeah, this is merchandising, not canon.--[[File:Emblem 1.jpg|20px]][[User:Rusty-112|<font color="Blue">'''Rusty'''</font>]][[User:Rusty-112|<font color="Red">'''-'''</font>]]UserWiki:Rusty-112|<font color="Blue">'''112'''</font>]] 19:10, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
#{{Oppose}} - I think that if bungie and microsoft ok'd the figure then it becomes cannon weatrher or not it is stated in the games,but the problem arises that the unit comprised with 5 spartan-II's,which could comprise of the second class of spartan-II's and,or grey team which is one group of spartans that are actually MIA.--[[User talk:Leozilla|Leozilla]] 03:44, October 3, 2009 (UTC)
#{{Neutral}} - Let's wait a bit. SoF
#{{Neutral}} - We could always add the Not Canon template on it.[[User talk:Spartan 112|112]] 22:17, October 26, 2009 (UTC)
#{{Oppose}} - it feels wierd saying this, but there's nothing here that actually ''contradicts'' canon. All it means is that the UNSC engaged in research to improve the performance of MJOLNIR Mark IV suits, using two members of the pre-existing Spartan-II's. That's not exactly unusual. If anything, it means very little, considering the Spartans would have abandoned them for newer Mark V anyway. Besides that, all Todd McFarlane figure summaries are from the Halo Story Bible, so I would assume bungie or MS gave them the go-ahead for them. -- <b>[[Halopedia:Administrators|<font color=indigo>Administrator</font>]] [[User:Specops306|<font color=indigo>Specops306</font>]]</b> - <i><b><u>[[User Talk:Specops306|<font color=blue>Qur'a 'Morhek</font>]]</u></b></i> 22:21, October 26, 2009 (UTC)
#{{Neutral}} - I agree that we should wait a little bit untill we decide. --[[User talk:Sgt.T.N.Biscuits|Sgt.T.N.Biscuits]] 22:23, October 26, 2009 (UTC)
#{{Oppose}} - This has bit sitting here for some time. I don't believe it's canon, but it still deserves a spot on the site, as long as it's designated as non-canon, or least canon that has yet to be confirmed. -- [[User talk:GHOST R3V0LV3R|GHOST R3V0LV3R]] 20:16, October 27, 2009 (UTC)
#{{Oppose}} - As per Specops and Ghost Revolver. <font face="century gothic">[[User:Snore|<font color="#738678">SNOR</font>]]<sup>{[[User talk:Snore|<font color="orange">3</font>]]}</sup></font> 20:22, October 27, 2009 (UTC)
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing that says its false...so I guess it'll stay. --<small><span style="border: 1px solid silver; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:General5 7|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;General5 7&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:General5 7|<span style="background-color:silver; color:white; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/General5 7|<span style="background-color:silver; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/General5 7|<span style="background-color:silver; color:white; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 01:50, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
#{{Oppose}} - As per Kirk and Sur'a. It doesn't contradict canon necessarily and shouldn't this wiki be inclusive of all things Halo, aside from fanon, obviously.--[[User:Kross|Kross]]<sup>[[User talk:Kross|Transmit on Holonet?]]</sup> 03:10, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

===Comments===
*Reply to Mcloganator:
:Those are regular figurines, thus I would assume received notes from Bungie about their background. The Hellspartans however are exclusive figurines, thus need to stand out from the rest of the regular figurines and to make it a limited version. How would they [McFarlane] do that? By introducing a totally new and unknown SPARTAN-II project no one heard off and making sure it will only be available in one location (San Diego Comic Con 2008), thus making it an "epic" action figure fanboys (and fangirls) would want to buy.- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 13:46, September 1, 2009 (UTC)
::Irregardless of whether or not it's a limited or mass-produced product, we have no right in saying what's canon or not without official proof from official sources. [[User:Grizzlei|CommanderTony]]
:::Ok. *grumbles* Sent a letter to McFarlane though I can already predict their response.- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 14:06, September 1, 2009 (UTC)
::::You likely won't hear shit from them, nor will they probably give an edumacated response. I'll ask some people I know at 343 Industries about it, at least they'll know about it. [[User:Grizzlei|CommanderTony]]

*Reply to General5 7:
:it should stay. why lose whats little known about them. keep em --[[Special:Contributions/72.2.86.194|72.2.86.194]] 01:43, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

*Reply to GHOST R3V0LV3R
:I think you're missing the point of this argument: It is the article that will be deleted, but not the description of the program. It is its canonicity that is under debate; if it is not canon, it should not be awarded as an article but as part of the toy series but if it is canon, then it will be an official article. It will, however, be redirected under [[McFarlane Toys]]. So, the current argument is to whether or not allow the description of the program to stay as an article.

*Reply to Spartan 112
:I agree with this. [[User talk:GHOST R3V0LV3R|GHOST R3V0LV3R]] 20:19, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

*General Reply
:It's talk pages like this that makes me sick. Do I think the very idea of these Hellspartans makes any sense at all in the context of the Halo universe? Not particularly. But like all of you, my opinion doesn't matter. Third party associates and marketing are all covered under the canon policy. It's there? It's canon. Limited releases and that crap aside, Mcfarlane put it out and both Staten and our own policy states that it WILL be treated as canon if it does not conflict with previously established works. It's not for us to judge. To see even our administrators make mistakes like this over and over again is disheartening. Shape up Halopedians! We have a duty to uphold!--[[User talk:Nerfherder1428|Nerfherder1428]] 19:56, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
{{Quote|''"The added information about the new SPARTAN program is not canon as it was not supervised by Bungie or Microsoft. That said, the information was added only for the "awesomeness" and for the Comic-Con."''|My argument}}
::The issue behind the article is whether or not these ''Hellspartans'' are in the canon Halo universe. If we were to apply your judgement in this discussion, then I suppose [http://kotaku.com/5427615/halo-warsclay/gallery/ Halo Wars Clay] should also be awarded an article in Halopedia. Let me remind you that there's a clear line to whether or not a product breaches canon and that most products are likely to be in breach of this. If the Hellspartan is indeed not canon, it will be redirected to McFarlane's article.- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 20:30, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
:::It turns out that I am actually arguing the canonical implications of the so-called Hellspartan. I'm not here to argue whether we should introduce this information as an Mcfarlane action figure page. Nor do I agree that we should add Halo Wars clay as an article. I'm not here to pick a fight; I myself wish that these Hellspartans never existed. But if you were to have read my above statements, I made it pretty clear that I was referring to canon and canon only. And since that argument was rebutted with an another argument about something moderately unrelated, I will address my points again as clearly as I can.
:::If it is true that Mcfarlane had absolutely NO approval from Microsoft or Bungie (and therefore infringing copyright laws and setting themselves up to be sued) when they made this product, it's canonicity would indeed be thrown out the window. But that's not the case. Your "Halo Wars Clay" is not an official Microsoft product and its makers will likely be sued for their blatant disregard to merchandising laws. 
:::In the case of the Hellspartans however, we have something different. Although Microsoft & Bungie didn't explicitly tell Mcfarlane to make this figure and instead gave them the freedom to do what they wished with it, Microsoft, as the Halo IP owners, still had to have stamped an approval on the product for it to be legally legitimate. M&B doesn't have to directly be involved with every step of the creation of a product in order for that product to be classified canon (*cough* HALO WARS!!! *cough*). So even if the product is only endorsed with the Halo logo, and regardless of the purposes of its creation, its material is canon in the Halo universe, albeit on one of the lowest rungs of the canon ladder. This policy is reflected in a variety of wikis, including the ever-popular Wookiepedia. It's funny though...we already have provisions for that in our own canon policy article, something I fear that people are becoming increasingly fond of misquoting. 
:::So in summary...as much as it pains me to claim such a ridiculous idea as canon, we must include the Hellspartans within the confines of the fictional Halo universe as, regardless of Bungie's direct involvement, they are products of a third party developer and endorsed by Microsoft for this Comic-Con event. --[[User talk:Nerfherder1428|Nerfherder1428]] 20:00, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

:If its a matter of Bungie not approving of it, 343 have actually held the IP for a while now, and since they're far more involved in the process of figure concept, design and approval, I would say that they would have ''had'' to have known about the figure. Its business practice - McFarlane couldn't have simply done it without their approval. The fact that it exists at all, to me at least, is evidence that 343 doesn't mind it. Until there are any contradictions to this, then, its a part of the Halo Universe. -- <b>[[Halopedia:Administrators|<font color=indigo>Administrator</font>]] [[User:Specops306|<font color=indigo>Specops306</font>]]</b> - <i><b><u>[[User Talk:Specops306|<font color=blue>Qur'a 'Morhek</font>]]</u></b></i> 09:38, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

==Naming==
Canon issues aside, shouldn't this be named "Hellspartan Project" or something? I know it's only a nickname, but it's the only official name we got and it's better than the current one, ie. having no name at all. And it isn't really "unknown" when we have a name, even if it's only a nickname.--[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] ([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]]) 20:29, December 29, 2009 (UTC)
:And there are '''other''' articles that have nicknames as placeholders: {{Pattern|Wuzum|Spectre}}, Shadow, Sparrowhawk, Concussion Rifle... etc. --{{User:Cally99117/Sig}}

== This doesn't belong.  ==

Out of every piece of information ever put into any book, there has never ever been anything that remotely hints at a so called hell spartan project. This figure has a bio, yes, but it is in the same vain as Nicole in DOA4. It was done by McFarland just to give it some context but the fact that the damn thing looks exactly like spawn his other most valuable franchise speaks for itself. It's not meant to be anything taken even remotely serious. 

It's not part of the canon and it has no reason to be put along side a well known canonical unit. If anything it could be placed in the miscellaneous section of the spartan related topics. If it never surfaces again, you can't honestly keep it in the same league as the Spartan-II program. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 22:27, 10 November 2011 (EST)

:Thing is, Nicole-458 was explicitly said to be non-canon when she was first revealed. That's not the same with here. It's just a lack of mention otherwise and I'm sure we could bring up dozens of objects from the ''Halo'' universe that have been mentioned once and never again. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 22:53, 10 November 2011 (EST)

::Not everything done is meant to be part of the canon, first of all if it was canon, it would essentially be an invasion of two different fictional universes that don't belong. Its more of a wild fanboy dream or fan fiction then something actually meant to be taken seriously. As for the other things, you could still add them to the canon and it would still ''fit'' you see what I'm saying. This is just one of those things that don't fit. Anyway you cut it. Its the halo version of spawn. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 23:09, 10 November 2011 (EST)

:As Specops has pointed out above, aside from the armor coloring, the concept isn't really all that far-fetched. 5 S-IIs were tested for further augmentation. Only 2 made it all the way to the final phase. They got an upgraded armor suit eventually phased out by the Mark V. That's not something that radically clashes with the story, [[Halo: Legends|considering we've seen far crazier things be shoehorned in the canon]]. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 01:20, 11 November 2011 (EST)

It kinda is far fetched, considering the [[SPARTAN-II Program#Personnel|list of candidates]]. Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  08:03, 11 November 2011 (EST)!

:What does that prove? I don't see your point. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 17:48, 11 November 2011 (EST)

I'm saying that it '''could''' happen, but that they would have to retcon the number of SPARTAN-IIs even more. Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  18:52, 12 November 2011 (EST)

:Not really. They'd just have to use five of the pre-existing ones. Five of them got used in a side-project, then eventually went on as the Hellspartan results grew less important. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 18:57, 12 November 2011 (EST)

::Honestly, the number of S-II's is becoming very screwed, so fudging the numbers is hardly an issue at the moment --<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC">[[User:Lordofmonsterisland|<font color="green">Am I a Lion, or a Lamb? Or a Boy?</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Lordofmonsterisland|<font color="red">Saint o</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Lordofmonsterisland|<font color="black">r Sinner?</font>]] [http://halofanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:Lordofmonsterisland <font color=#777777>The Lost Books</font>]</sup></span> 08:51, 13 November 2011 (EST)

== Canon status ==

The Halo series has had many nods to various other media so that's not the question. The question is whether or not Hellspartsnare canon and should be counted on the [[Template:SpartanPrograms]]. So far it is just a figurine. Though some things in the canon were established through the canon. So, are Hellspartans canon? And if they aren't shouldn't they be taken off of the [[Template:SpartanPrograms]]? --[[User talk:ADinoSupremacist|ADinoSupremacist]] 18:02, 6 May 2012 (EDT)
:Nice summary of all previous discussions. Its likely that its not canon, but there's a small chance that it is. In any case, I very much doubt that we'll know more about it in the future. {{User:Grizzlei/Sig}}

::If we can count the REAP-X as canon, I see absolutely no reason why this can't count. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 23:11, 10 June 2014 (EDT)

:::This probably falls in the same category as a few others. It's noteworthy in reference to the action figure, but as a part of the canon, I'm very much inclined to say no. I think it's similar to the fact that the deployable equipment Invincibility was conspicuously missing from the first Essential Visual Guide, or how the only Spartan armor missing from the same book was Hayabusa. Did you notice they were missing? There are those at 343i that felt that Hayabusa was a nice nod to the old Ninja Gaiden video game and whom I believe there was a link to the Nicole Spartan collaboration at the time. It was just a little too hokey to be a part of the real Halo universe. Same with trying to justify how Invincibility could work outside a neat gameplay mechanic and that's why these were left out on purpose. (Based on that I inquired why FOTUS was in the newer Visual Guide, but it, strangely remained.) Even the write-up for the Grifball Spartan action figure can't be taken too seriously that in 2553 Grifball is the only sport folks are playing. Some stuff is interesting, yet not really part of the Halo canon. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 11:53, 11 June 2014 (EDT).
@@ Line 68: / Line 68: @@
 It kinda is far fetched, considering the [[SPARTAN-II Program#Personnel|list of candidates]]. Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  08:03, 11 November 2011 (EST)!
 :What does that prove? I don't see your point. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 17:48, 11 November 2011 (EST)
@@ Line 86: / Line 85: @@
 :::This probably falls in the same category as a few others. It's noteworthy in reference to the action figure, but as a part of the canon, I'm very much inclined to say no. I think it's similar to the fact that the deployable equipment Invincibility was conspicuously missing from the first Essential Visual Guide, or how the only Spartan armor missing from the same book was Hayabusa. Did you notice they were missing? There are those at 343i that felt that Hayabusa was a nice nod to the old Ninja Gaiden video game and whom I believe there was a link to the Nicole Spartan collaboration at the time. It was just a little too hokey to be a part of the real Halo universe. Same with trying to justify how Invincibility could work outside a neat gameplay mechanic and that's why these were left out on purpose. (Based on that I inquired why FOTUS was in the newer Visual Guide, but it, strangely remained.) Even the write-up for the Grifball Spartan action figure can't be taken too seriously that in 2553 Grifball is the only sport folks are playing. Some stuff is interesting, yet not really part of the Halo canon. -[[User:ScaleMaster117|ScaleMaster117]] ([[User talk:ScaleMaster117|talk]]) 11:53, 11 June 2014 (EDT).
-==Accessibility to the Content==
-It is apparent that you guys consider the Hellspartan project worthy of a page on the wiki. I think it should be easier to find this information on the wiki. As of now, unless you know the exact term Hellspartan project, you have no way of knowing about this stuff. That being said, I feel either A)it should retain its own article and have a spot in the tables of topics provided at the bottom. OR B) it should be mention in the Spartan-II program in passing and if you want to read more about it, click the link that take you to the page about the Hellspartan project. Option A may be an over the top stance, but Option B in the trivia section of the Spartan II program page is more than reasonable. If the powers that be concur with this assessment in balancing the integrity of the info with the accessibility of the info, please give the green light, and i will add a spot in the trivia section to give Halo fans the ability to easily access info and learn about the info we have on the hellspartan project.--[[User:Peter-330|Peter-330]] ([[User talk:Peter-330|talk]]) 22:55, 1 August 2017 (EDT)