Editing Talk:Flood Juggernaut
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First of all, store some of the old conversations. Second of all, the Juggernaut is most likely a combination of infected bodies and Flood Biomass. It would have been the Flood's equivalent to a Hunter, although with a melee emphasis, not a Fuel Cannon one.-- '''''[[User:Combak|page]]/[[Special:Contributions/Combak|contribs]]''''' 02:32, April 24, 2010 (UTC) | First of all, store some of the old conversations. Second of all, the Juggernaut is most likely a combination of infected bodies and Flood Biomass. It would have been the Flood's equivalent to a Hunter, although with a melee emphasis, not a Fuel Cannon one.-- '''''[[User:Combak|page]]/[[Special:Contributions/Combak|contribs]]''''' 02:32, April 24, 2010 (UTC) | ||
[[ | [[Image:Juggernaut3.jpg|thumb|200px|Image:Juggernaut3.jpg|Fighting the Flood Juggernaut]][[Image:Juggernaut2.jpg|thumb|200px|Image:Juggernaut3.jpg|Fighting the Flood Juggernaut]][[Image:Juggernaut1.jpg|thumb|200px|Fighting the Flood Juggernaut]] | ||
==Speculation== | ==Speculation== | ||
Some theories put forward by fans | Some theories put forward by fans | ||
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I think that the Juggernaut is an infected form of a prophit.--[[User:NIGHTMARE|NIGHTMARE]] | I think that the Juggernaut is an infected form of a prophit.--[[User:NIGHTMARE|NIGHTMARE]] | ||
:I don't see the similarity. -- | :I don't see the similarity. --<b>[[User:Dragonclaws|<font color="000000">Dragon<font color="FF0000">c</font>laws</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Dragonclaws|<font color="000000">talk</font>]])</sup></b> 21:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC) | ||
I agree with Dragonclaws The prophets are too small for them to become a juggernaut. Perhaps It's a mixture between combat forms? --[[User:Deathfrye]] | I agree with Dragonclaws The prophets are too small for them to become a juggernaut. Perhaps It's a mixture between combat forms? --[[User:Deathfrye]] | ||
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Could it be that is is a SPARTAN-II that was infected? | Could it be that is is a SPARTAN-II that was infected? | ||
:No. Spartans, enhanced though they may be, are still just human. That thing is pretty inhuman, and much bigger than the Chief. -- | :No. Spartans, enhanced though they may be, are still just human. That thing is pretty inhuman, and much bigger than the Chief. --<b>[[User:Dragonclaws|<font color="000000">Dragon<font color="FF0000">c</font>laws</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Dragonclaws|<font color="000000">talk</font>]])</sup></b> 19:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC) | ||
it CAN be a hunter, every worm whould have to be infected though, they have been shown to indect every specis but hunters and engeiners. think about it. the 'body' of the hunter has more worms, so bigger mass, the arms have less worms, so they whould be thinner. | it CAN be a hunter, every worm whould have to be infected though, they have been shown to indect every specis but hunters and engeiners. think about it. the 'body' of the hunter has more worms, so bigger mass, the arms have less worms, so they whould be thinner. | ||
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3. the form of the juggernaut doesn't need to be like the form of a hunter because hunters appear to be composed of multiple organisms that exists within the hunter armor. | 3. the form of the juggernaut doesn't need to be like the form of a hunter because hunters appear to be composed of multiple organisms that exists within the hunter armor. | ||
:These multiple organisms are each about the size of the infection forms, have no calcium stores for the Flood to feed on, and even if the Flood could infest them the Juggernaut doesn't look like a worm colony. -- | :These multiple organisms are each about the size of the infection forms, have no calcium stores for the Flood to feed on, and even if the Flood could infest them the Juggernaut doesn't look like a worm colony. --<b>[[User:Dragonclaws|<font color="000000">Dragon<font color="FF0000">c</font>laws</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Dragonclaws|<font color="000000">talk</font>]])</sup></b> 19:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC) | ||
:because of the possibilities, the flood juggernaut could be mixed with other hosts (for the ribs) and were strong and big enough to absorb the hunter (amourless of course), to have the hunters brain pattern, aggresiveness of the brute, higher jumping like other F C forms... [[User:Tmek|fludz 'carnttuchmee]] 14:42, 4 June 2007 (UTC) | :because of the possibilities, the flood juggernaut could be mixed with other hosts (for the ribs) and were strong and big enough to absorb the hunter (amourless of course), to have the hunters brain pattern, aggresiveness of the brute, higher jumping like other F C forms... [[User:Tmek|fludz 'carnttuchmee]] 14:42, 4 June 2007 (UTC) | ||
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:I don't think it's a Drinol but if it's an Engineer they're non combatent maybe the flood modify their bodies like if a lifeforms body is useless to the flood they modify them probably. I mean the flood human forms are abveously modified with their heads like that. So maybe that's it I admit it's speculation.--[[User:Leckgolo434|prophit of war]] 22:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC) | :I don't think it's a Drinol but if it's an Engineer they're non combatent maybe the flood modify their bodies like if a lifeforms body is useless to the flood they modify them probably. I mean the flood human forms are abveously modified with their heads like that. So maybe that's it I admit it's speculation.--[[User:Leckgolo434|prophit of war]] 22:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC) | ||
::I think it's a Drinol, because remember how the carrier forms are disfigured grunts? Well it looks like it could just be very disfigured with tentacles where its arms should be, but instead of sprouting from the arms like most combat forms, this case it totally replaces them. Or, maybe it's an entirely new species.--FRAG3TH | ::I think it's a Drinol, because remember how the carrier forms are disfigured grunts? Well it looks like it could just be very disfigured with tentacles where its arms should be, but instead of sprouting from the arms like most combat forms, this case it totally replaces them. Or, maybe it's an entirely new species.--[[FRAG3TH]] | ||
::Too bad they don't show the flood changing creatures ingame--[[User:Leckgolo434|prophit of war]] 15:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | ::Too bad they don't show the flood changing creatures ingame--[[User:Leckgolo434|prophit of war]] 15:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | ||
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Possibly.... {{Unsigned|69.14.127.209}} | Possibly.... {{Unsigned|69.14.127.209}} | ||
I think it's a Drinol/Sharquoi (since they're probably the same thing). I don't think it can be an engineer because they don't have legs. -- | I think it's a Drinol/Sharquoi (since they're probably the same thing). I don't think it can be an engineer because they don't have legs. --[[Image:Final Goji.jpg|40px]] [[User:Lordofmonsterisland|<font color="green">Lordofmonsterisland</font>]][[User talk:Lordofmonsterisland| <font color="green">"Roar to me"</font>]] 14:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC) | ||
===Are they Brutes?=== | ===Are they Brutes?=== | ||
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I know that there are a lot of things you can do with the mods, (like the gold warthog) but how do you actually mod the game? It isnt out on the PC, so do you have to mod the xbox, or the actual disk? | I know that there are a lot of things you can do with the mods, (like the gold warthog) but how do you actually mod the game? It isnt out on the PC, so do you have to mod the xbox, or the actual disk? | ||
:I don't know the specifics, but you do have to open up your Xbox and tinker with it. Due to the abuse of mods, Xbox Live will automatically ban the account of anyone using a modded Xbox, which is why modders like to have two. [[User:Dojorkan|Dojorkan]]'s a modder, and could probably answer any other questions you have about it. -- | :I don't know the specifics, but you do have to open up your Xbox and tinker with it. Due to the abuse of mods, Xbox Live will automatically ban the account of anyone using a modded Xbox, which is why modders like to have two. [[User:Dojorkan|Dojorkan]]'s a modder, and could probably answer any other questions you have about it. --<b>[[User:Dragonclaws|<font color="000000">Dragon<font color="FF0000">c</font>laws</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Dragonclaws|<font color="000000">talk</font>]])</sup></b> 10:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC) | ||
::Modding your xbox allows you to copy and FTP the .map files to your PC. Then you can use apps found at the utilities section of halomods to actually tinker with the .map files. --[[User:Dojorkan|Dojorkan]] 12:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC) | ::Modding your xbox allows you to copy and FTP the .map files to your PC. Then you can use apps found at the utilities section of halomods to actually tinker with the .map files. --[[User:Dojorkan|Dojorkan]] 12:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC) | ||
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*Make you need to wash your pants = obviously | *Make you need to wash your pants = obviously | ||
--[[User:Lordofmonsterisland|<font color="green">Lordofmonsterisland</font>]][[User talk:Lordofmonsterisland|<font color="green">"Roar to me"</font>]] 23:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC) | --[[User:Lordofmonsterisland| <font color="green">Lordofmonsterisland</font>]][[User talk:Lordofmonsterisland| <font color="green">"Roar to me"</font>]] 23:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC) | ||
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Now engieners 50/50 probility but only made up if diffrent hosts. Brutes are too small but even though they can alter their host | Now engieners 50/50 probility but only made up if diffrent hosts. Brutes are too small but even though they can alter their host | ||
they can't add that much power to a flood form. So most likly a new or unheard of deleated speacis is the host or multiple host.[[User:Darth Gree|'''<font color="olive">The Consumed</font>''']] [[User Talk:Darth Gree|'''<font color="brown">,The Dead</font>''']] [[Special:Contributions/Darth Gree|'''<font color="purple">,and Living</font>''']] | they can't add that much power to a flood form. So most likly a new or unheard of deleated speacis is the host or multiple host.[[User:Darth Gree|'''<font color="olive">The Consumed</font>''']] [[User Talk:Darth Gree|'''<font color="brown">,The Dead</font>''']] [[Special:Contributions/Darth Gree|'''<font color="purple">,and Living</font>''']] | ||
[[Image:ESE.JPG|20px]] 02:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC) | |||
== All of you are idiots == | == All of you are idiots == | ||
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Were not stupid! That was along time ago NOOB!! [[User:The evil O,malley|The Evil O'malley]] 05:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC) | Were not stupid! That was along time ago NOOB!! [[User:The evil O,malley|The Evil O'malley]] 05:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC) | ||
Nice. Have a flame war over stupidity and misspell "we're".-- | Nice. Have a flame war over stupidity and misspell "we're".--[[Image:Glider.png|20px]] <font color="Black">ΓΣH</font> [[User talk:Digipatd|<font color="black">ÜBΣR</font>]] [[User:2401 PT|<font color="Black">Ð1G1P4ΓÐ</font>]] [[Image:sm_battle_rifle.gif]] 19:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC) | ||
Maybe starting out as a Carrier form. I see a resemblance --[[User:Ptowery|þ†öW讥]] <sup>[[User:Ptowery|^]]</sup> <sup>([[user talk:Ptowery|UNSC Fleetcom]])</sup><sup>([http://halofanon.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Ptowery UNSC History])</sup><sup>([[Special:Contributions/Ptowery|UNSC Mision Log]])</sup> 22:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC) | Maybe starting out as a Carrier form. I see a resemblance --[[User:Ptowery|þ†öW讥]] <sup>[[User:Ptowery|^]]</sup> <sup>([[user talk:Ptowery|UNSC Fleetcom]])</sup><sup>([http://halofanon.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Ptowery UNSC History])</sup><sup>([[Special:Contributions/Ptowery|UNSC Mision Log]])</sup> 22:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC) | ||
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[[User:Bloodstar|Bloodstar]] 19:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC) | [[User:Bloodstar|Bloodstar]] 19:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC) | ||
You are right, the Flood don't have bones, but the organisms they infect do.-- | You are right, the Flood don't have bones, but the organisms they infect do.--[[Image:Glider.png|20px]] <font color="Black">ΓΣH</font> [[User talk:Digipatd|<font color="black">ÜBΣR</font>]] [[User:2401 PT|<font color="Black">Ð1G1P4ΓÐ</font>]] [[Image:sm_battle_rifle.gif]] 19:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC) | ||
Yes, I agree, it could very well be Bungie wanting to show us what an infected Forerunner looked like [[User: Heroic Wolf|Heroic Wolf]] | Yes, I agree, it could very well be Bungie wanting to show us what an infected Forerunner looked like [[User: Heroic Wolf|Heroic Wolf]] | ||
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== What is Absolutely Known == | == What is Absolutely Known == | ||
For more information, one can just go to page 142 of ''The Art of Halo'' and read the fine print. (The Juggernaut is older than "Dervish"!)<br />-- | For more information, one can just go to page 142 of ''The Art of Halo'' and read the fine print. (The Juggernaut is older than "Dervish"!)<br />--[[Image:Glider.png|20px]] <font color="Black">ΓΣH</font> [[User talk:Digipatd|<font color="black">ÜBΣR</font>]] [[User:2401 PT|<font color="Black">Ð1G1P4ΓÐ</font>]] [[Image:sm_battle_rifle.gif]] 15:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC) | ||
== Juggernaut on Oracle? == | == Juggernaut on Oracle? == | ||
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There is something down there though... it was big... I saw something when I played that level.[[User:Sgt.johnson|AJ]] 00:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC) | There is something down there though... it was big... I saw something when I played that level.[[User:Sgt.johnson|AJ]] 00:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC) | ||
How could you see anything? To me the floor is frosted over worse than a window on a cold morning. --[[User:Lordofmonsterisland|<font color="green">Lordofmonsterisland</font>]][[User talk:Lordofmonsterisland|<font color="green">"Roar to me"</font>]] 00:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC) | How could you see anything? To me the floor is frosted over worse than a window on a cold morning. --[[User:Lordofmonsterisland| <font color="green">Lordofmonsterisland</font>]][[User talk:Lordofmonsterisland| <font color="green">"Roar to me"</font>]] 00:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC) | ||
It is frosted; but you can see the outline of something big. I did. You can see it with like a whole bunch of combat forms and carrier forms around it and the thing is killing elites.[[User:Sgt.johnson|AJ]] 00:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC) | It is frosted; but you can see the outline of something big. I did. You can see it with like a whole bunch of combat forms and carrier forms around it and the thing is killing elites.[[User:Sgt.johnson|AJ]] 00:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC) | ||
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== A Walking corpse Pile == | == A Walking corpse Pile == | ||
what if juggernauts were like a grave mine or a flood brain. both are made of multiple corpses collected by the flood just like in The Last Voyage of the Infinite Succor in the [[Halo Graphic Novel]]. | what if juggernauts were like a grave mine or a flood brain. both are made of multiple corpses collected by the flood just like in The Last Voyage of the Infinite Succor in the [[Halo Graphic Novel]]. | ||
--[[User:Hydraman|Hydraman]] 21:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC) | --[[User:Hydraman|Hydraman]] 21:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC) | ||
== Pure Form? == | == Pure Form? == | ||
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The Halo 3 Bestarium suggests a Flood "Pure Form." Perhaps the Juggernaut is linked to this somehow. -- [[User:Hunter-113|Hunter-113]] 12:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC) | The Halo 3 Bestarium suggests a Flood "Pure Form." Perhaps the Juggernaut is linked to this somehow. -- [[User:Hunter-113|Hunter-113]] 12:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC) | ||
*I have added a section called Pure Form to the Flood article talking about the Pure Form. If there is confirmation that the Juggernaut is a Pure Form, someone will need to merge those sections later. -- [[User:Darth Batrus|Darth Batrus]] 13:59, 18 September 2007 (UTC) | *I have added a section called Pure Form to the Flood article talking about the Pure Form. If there is confirmation that the Juggernaut is a Pure Form, someone will need to merge those sections later. -- [[User:Darth Batrus|Darth Batrus]] 13:59, 18 September 2007 (UTC) | ||
:could the flood juggernaut be the pure form tank type flood? | :could the flood juggernaut be the pure form tank type flood? [[Image:Halo_Scarab_Large.jpg|35px]] [[User:Tmek|<font color="00FF00">Fludz 'Carnttuchmee</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Tmek|<font color="FF0000">Kamekazi elite</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Tmek|<font color="0000FF">Grunty friends!</font>]]</sub> 15:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC) | ||
Probably.[[User:Trooper117|Trooper117]] 20:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC) | Probably.[[User:Trooper117|Trooper117]] 20:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC) | ||
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== Several juggernauts == | == Several juggernauts == | ||
Just to clear that up, the appearance of several juggernauts in some videos isn't what you think it is. I'm pretty sure that if you can edit Halo 2 you can edit how many will spawn, and if it will respawn. Oh, and not that I have seen any that have more than one Juggernaut, but I haven't watched any juggernaut fights either. I just saw a bunch of people up there talking about the "other" one, or so I recall. [[User:PX173|'''''PX''''']][[ | Just to clear that up, the appearance of several juggernauts in some videos isn't what you think it is. I'm pretty sure that if you can edit Halo 2 you can edit how many will spawn, and if it will respawn. Oh, and not that I have seen any that have more than one Juggernaut, but I haven't watched any juggernaut fights either. I just saw a bunch of people up there talking about the "other" one, or so I recall. [[User:PX173|'''''PX''''']][[User_talk:PX173|''1'']]''7''[[Special:Contributions/PX173|''3'']] 16:08, October 12, 2009 (UTC) | ||
== Kind of like a Carrier == | == Kind of like a Carrier == | ||
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The Juggernaut looks like a carrier form. Could their be some relation, like, it 's a carrier form with a little more defense? [[User talk:Liquid Ink|Liquid Ink]] 08:25, March 6, 2010 (UTC) | The Juggernaut looks like a carrier form. Could their be some relation, like, it 's a carrier form with a little more defense? [[User talk:Liquid Ink|Liquid Ink]] 08:25, March 6, 2010 (UTC) | ||
I bet it is. The similarity should be mentioned in the Trivia section. - [[User: Echo 1|Echoes are all you hear...]] 00:12, June 25, 2010 (UTC) | I bet it is. The similarity should be mentioned in the Trivia section. - [[User: Echo 1 | Echoes are all you hear... ]] 00:12, June 25, 2010 (UTC) | ||
== Feast of Bones == | == Feast of Bones == | ||
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==Canonicity== | ==Canonicity== | ||
So I have researched the matter as best as I could, and this is what I have found so far. There are two important sources that I should explain (both are already in the article's sources). The first one is an article entitled "Feast of Bones". Long story short, what we need to know is that the Juggernaut was supposed to be in ''Halo 2'' as a super intelligent deadly mini-boss which ended as a big, stupid, cheap, frustrating tank. In the end, the "conflict" between the original purpose and the AI killed the character's chance of being included in the game. The Juggernaut was "supposed to be" (I'm using Urk's own words) a "progenitor of the pure form seen in ''Halo 3''", i.e. it was supposed to be made of "raw materials", some kind of intermediate stage between the combat form and the Gravemind. Note that this section of the article mainly focuses on why the Juggernaut didn't make the cut (AI, etc), but it does mention "its demise and subsequent rebirth" (i.e. the Pure forms in ''Halo 3''). This is retroactively speaking, in other words the Juggernaut shared a similar concept with the Pure forms, it was "pure" before the term was coined (in ''Halo 3''). Now comes the second article, which is written by Vic DeLeon. It was a presentation of the Flood and how it was designed during the development of ''Halo 3''. The presentation may not be available anymore, but I do have pictures of it. Basically, for those who don't know, Vic DeLeon was the guy who was mainly responsible for the Flood stuff in ''Halo 3''. In his own words: "I researched, prototyped, and realized a new visual vocabulary and style for an old theme in the Halo universe." "A new visual language for the Flood needed to be created." Of course, as a senior artist, he was not "the" artist who did all the work, but he was responsible for everyhting from start to finish. Basically, he's as much the "Flood guy" for ''Halo 3'' as Robt McLees was for ''Halo: CE''. At one point, he talks a bit about the Flood forms (he doesn't elaborate a lot), and he talks roughly about three categories: the combat forms, the advanced forms, and then finally the new ''Halo 3'' pure forms. What struck me is that, among the advanced forms, he casually includes: [http://i.imgur.com/cOeEZFW.png "Juggernaut, Proto-Gravemind, Gravemind"] (He only shows pictures for the Juggernaut and the Gravemind), without even explaining that the Juggernaut was supposed to have been cut or anything. It's just as if it's an advanced form. Actually, for [http://i.imgur.com/jjrh0yD.png the combat forms], he only shows a Brute form, and for [http://i.imgur.com/R14lf2N.png the pure forms], he only shows the Tank form. Yet, for the advanced forms, he does take the time and space to include the Juggernaut. (Please understand that there are over 50 images overall, so I'm not going to upload them all, but only these 3 images are dedicated to the "Flood lifeforms" so the rest is irrelevant to the current discussion). Note that the presentation as a whole is supposed to describe how development went for the Flood, so you may assume "nah he's just showing concepts", but this is in the beginning, when he simply introduces "Flood lifeforms", as if they were not cut content (Obviously only the Juggernaut seems out of place, there is nothing in the whole presentation about cut forms). So, in conclusion, this is my understanding: "Feast of Bones" mainly confirms that the Juggernaut was cut in ''Halo 2'' for gameplay concerns (Note that the article was published in 2010, but as a whole it mainly deals with the development of the Flood in ''Halo: CE'' and ''Halo 2''). But in "post-''Halo 3''" Bungie, Vic DeLeon (whose role in the most recent Flood stuff is quite significant) is also ready to accept the Juggernaut as a part of the "Flood canon". While "Feast of Bones" vaguely mentions the Juggernaut as a precursor to the later Pure forms, Vic mainly considers it to be way more powerful and "advanced" than the pure forms, though they share some similarities. This also reflects why it couldn't make it into the game twice, in other words the pure forms are more "docile" and the idea of a form made with raw materials could fit into ''Halo 3''. However they still don't know how to include the Juggernaut with a good AI so it can live up to its reputation. Note also that in ''Halo 2'', it was supposed to "control" other combat forms, and when the Juggernaut would be killed, the combat forms would automatically die. Something that implies the Juggernaut is not just a pure form, but something more advanced. It is made with raw materials, indeed, but it is even more advanced than the ''Halo 3'' pure forms. (Note that in "Feast of Bones", Robt McLees usually talks about the Proto-Gravemind/Gravemind as being able to control other Flood forms simply through "broadcasting" its intelligence into them, which is strikingly similar to the Juggernaut. In many ways, we can consider the Juggernaut not simply as a pure form, but really as some kind of "Proto-Gravemind combatant"). Because of the way those two sources deal with the Juggernaut, I think there is a reasonable case to be made. The Juggernaut is either canon or at least [[Template:semicanon|semi-canon]], it would fall into the advanced category, and was deleted from ''Halo 2'' but not from the ''Halo'' universe itself as Bungie still clung to it as late as the early 2010s. I doubt whether 343i can have an explicit stance on the matter, as they have barely used the Flood in the meantime and even if they brought them back the Juggernaut itself is unlikely to come back properly. That leaves us with Bungie's last stance, which is actually quite ambiguous overall, but from Vic's work I would say the creature does fit somewhere in the universe, but not in the games due to AI limitations. Like in ''Halo 3'', where we were supposed to fight the Gravemind with a Scarab, but... well, you can imagine why it didn't happen. Anyway, Vic puts it too ostensibly on the same level as the Proto-Gravemind and the Gravemind, so I wouldn't dare to say it's got deleted from the universe. Deleted from ''Halo 2'', yes (according to Feast of Bones). But from Bungie's internal canon, never (according to Vic's point of view). [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 19:48, 8 February 2015 (EST) | |||
So I have researched the matter as best as I could, and this is what I have found so far. There are two important sources that I should explain (both are already in the article's sources). The first one is an article entitled "Feast of Bones". Long story short, what we need to know is that the Juggernaut was supposed to be in ''Halo 2'' as a super intelligent deadly mini-boss which ended as a big, stupid, cheap, frustrating tank. In the end, the "conflict" between the original purpose and the AI killed the character's chance of being included in the game. The Juggernaut was "supposed to be" (I'm using Urk's own words) a "progenitor of the pure form seen in ''Halo 3''", i.e. it was supposed to be made of "raw materials", some kind of intermediate stage between the combat form and the Gravemind. Note that this section of the article mainly focuses on why the Juggernaut didn't make the cut (AI, etc), but it does mention "its demise and subsequent rebirth" (i.e. the Pure forms in ''Halo 3''). This is retroactively speaking, in other words the Juggernaut shared a similar concept with the Pure forms, it was "pure" before the term was coined (in ''Halo 3''). | |||
Now comes the second article, which is written by Vic DeLeon. It was a presentation of the Flood and how it was designed during the development of ''Halo 3''. The presentation may not be available anymore, but I do have pictures of it. Basically, for those who don't know, Vic DeLeon was the guy who was mainly responsible for the Flood stuff in ''Halo 3''. In his own words: "I researched, prototyped, and realized a new visual vocabulary and style for an old theme in the Halo universe." "A new visual language for the Flood needed to be created." Of course, as a senior artist, he was not "the" artist who did all the work, but he was responsible for everyhting from start to finish. Basically, he's as much the "Flood guy" for ''Halo 3'' as Robt McLees was for ''Halo: CE''. At one point, he talks a bit about the Flood forms (he doesn't elaborate a lot), and he talks roughly about three categories: the combat forms, the advanced forms, and then finally the new ''Halo 3'' pure forms. What struck me is that, among the advanced forms, he casually includes: [http://i.imgur.com/cOeEZFW.png "Juggernaut, Proto-Gravemind, Gravemind"] (He only shows pictures for the Juggernaut and the Gravemind), without even explaining that the Juggernaut was supposed to have been cut or anything. It's just as if it's an advanced form. Actually, for [http://i.imgur.com/jjrh0yD.png the combat forms], he only shows a Brute form, and for [http://i.imgur.com/R14lf2N.png the pure forms], he only shows the Tank form. Yet, for the advanced forms, he does take the time and space to include the Juggernaut. (Please understand that there are over 50 images overall, so I'm not going to upload them all, but only these 3 images are dedicated to the "Flood lifeforms" so the rest is irrelevant to the current discussion). Note that the presentation as a whole is supposed to describe how development went for the Flood, so you may assume "nah he's just showing concepts", but this is in the beginning, when he simply introduces "Flood lifeforms", as if they were not cut content (Obviously only the Juggernaut seems out of place, there is nothing in the whole presentation about cut forms). | |||
So, in conclusion, this is my understanding: "Feast of Bones" mainly confirms that the Juggernaut was cut in ''Halo 2'' for gameplay concerns (Note that the article was published in 2010, but as a whole it mainly deals with the development of the Flood in ''Halo: CE'' and ''Halo 2''). But in "post-''Halo 3''" Bungie, Vic DeLeon (whose role in the most recent Flood stuff is quite significant) is also ready to accept the Juggernaut as a part of the "Flood canon". While "Feast of Bones" vaguely mentions the Juggernaut as a precursor to the later Pure forms, Vic mainly considers it to be way more powerful and "advanced" than the pure forms, though they share some similarities. This also reflects why it couldn't make it into the game twice, in other words the pure forms are more "docile" and the idea of a form made with raw materials could fit into ''Halo 3''. However they still don't know how to include the Juggernaut with a good AI so it can live up to its reputation. Note also that in ''Halo 2'', it was supposed to "control" other combat forms, and when the Juggernaut would be killed, the combat forms would automatically die. Something that implies the Juggernaut is not just a pure form, but something more advanced. It is made with raw materials, indeed, but it is even more advanced than the ''Halo 3'' pure forms. (Note that in "Feast of Bones", Robt McLees usually talks about the Proto-Gravemind/Gravemind as being able to control other Flood forms simply through "broadcasting" its intelligence into them, which is strikingly similar to the Juggernaut. In many ways, we can consider the Juggernaut not simply as a pure form, but really as some kind of "Proto-Gravemind combatant"). Because of the way those two sources deal with the Juggernaut, I think there is a reasonable case to be made. | |||
The Juggernaut is either canon or at least [[Template: | |||
:Bump. (A topic on Waypoint about the Juggernaut made me remember about this) [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 21:19, 11 March 2015 (EDT) | :Bump. (A topic on Waypoint about the Juggernaut made me remember about this) [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 21:19, 11 March 2015 (EDT) | ||