Editing Talk:Fleet of Particular Justice

Don't forget the support ships infinite succor.--[[User:Halo3|Halo3]]Halo3

At the beginning of Halo 2, the Arbiter (ex-supreme commander) says that he followed the Pillar of Autumn with all the ships in his command, but not all the vessels who assaulted Reach followed the Pillar. Even later, I don't think the number of ships around Halo was bigger than a hundred. It is also said in the article on the Covenant Fleet that a fleet is usually composed by a hundred ships, not more. At last, the flasgship of the fleet that attacked Reach was destroyed. So, I think the fleet at Reach was a combined fleet, and was not entirely under command of the future Arbiter. The Fleet of Particular Justice is, maybe, a third of the staships present, one of the three or four fleets included on the fleet of Reach. Maybe it was under command of an Imperial Admiral, but he died with the destruction of his flagship.

Actually there was one flagship.If there was more than the book would of mentioned.I doubt there was more than one imperial admiral and also flagship can technically go to any ship as said and also the fleet was larger than 100 not to mention there can only be one flagship and imperial admiral most likely being the arbiter.[[User:Halo3|Halo3]] 20:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)--

The book disputes with the game. At the begining of 'The Flood', the ship master says they just arrived but the game says that the arbiter came with all his ships.

I don't think Ascendant Justice was ever part of the Fleet of Particular Justice. In the Halo GN it names Seeker of Truth as the flagship, why would they have two? I think there is some confusion because it is assumed that Ascendant Justice and the six cruisers survived the battle of alpha Halo, when actually they arrived after the fact. This indicates to me that Ascendant Justice and those six cruisers were part of another fleet not involved in the events of alpha Halo.

== dispute ==

'''''The Heretics were wiped out, but the Covenant belief in their creed fell abundantly.''''' 

what about the base on [[basis]] . --[[User:Qual22|Qual22]] 00:57, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Just curious...how do we even know the fleet at Halo is the Fleet of particular justice? Maybe someone should source the page and book?

==Image of the Fleet==

I'm pretty sure that the image here came from halo 2's intro cutscene, but I'm not completely sure. Anyway, it appears that the ships in the background are CCS-class battlecruisers and another type of ship that looks to be a little bit shorter than said CCS-class ships. Could it be possible that the shorter ships are the typical covenant cruiser as mentioned in the novels? [[User talk:Quakeomaniac|Quakeomaniac]] 18:32, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Bungie has, so far, only used the CCS and the Assault Carrier models for ships. If you are refering to the first image that one is fan made, as there was no Carrier in H2's opener. The size difference is likely a matter of perspective or a mistake. [[User talk:ProphetofTruth|ProphetofTruth]] 19:26, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
:Umm, there ''was'' an Assault Carrier in Halo 2's opening. - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="red"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Talk'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Halo-343|<font color="orange"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Contribs'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Editcount/Halo-343|<font color="green"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Edits'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] 19:32, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

There was an Assault Carrier in H2's opening cinematic, yes, I believe ProphetofTruth may have mistakenly written carrier instead of cruiser. It's odd too that Bungie won't use additional ship classes, makes the fleets look kinda incomplete. Not to mention, those two ship classes aren't used in the novels. It's truly odd, to me, why the novels and games can't go together a bit more smoothly. Thanks for the info, I was unaware that was a fan made image. Nicely done one though. [[User talk:Quakeomaniac|Quakeomaniac]] 04:58, January 9, 2010 (UTC)


What I meant was the image of the fleet arriving at Alpha Halo lacks an assualt carrier. It is a ccs cruiser that is seen flying towards the ring, not a carrier. [[User talk:ProphetofTruth|ProphetofTruth]] 07:40, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

==Everything on the current page is "relevant"==
Let me break this down paragraph by paragraph:

-Paragraph about Battle of Reach: Relevant. I shouldn't have to explain this.

-Battle btwn the Autumn and the FoPJ above Halo: Relevant - it took place in SPACE.

-Fleet holding orbit around Halo: Relevant - Self explanatory.

-Infestation of the Infinite Succor: Relevant - it took place on a ship that was part of the FoPJ - and it took place in SPACE.

-Stuff about the heretics: Possibly the only thing that's NOT relevant, but I didn't actually write that part. That was part of the original article.  If something has to be deleted - it should be that part.

--[[User talk:MisterRandom2|MisterRandom2]] 21:41, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

== The fleets at Reach ==

Until now, all of our articles have claimed that every ship that was at Reach during the battle was from the Fleet of Particular Justice. With the new information from ''The Return'' and the reissue of ''The Flood'', we can no longer rely on that. I've noted this [[Talk:Fall of Reach/Archive#Covenant fleets|in the past]], but now that we have solid evidence of at least two fleets other than the Fleet of Particular Justice present in the Fall of Reach, we should change our articles to reflect that fact. One thing we can figure out is that all ships that pursued the ''Autumn'' to Installation 04 were from the Fleet of Particular Justice, but that's about it.

Also, I've seen many claiming that the fleet seen in the end of Long Night of Solace is the Fleet of Particular Justice. What I'd like to know is, where did the proof to this come from? We have absolutely no idea how many fleets were present, and when each fleet arrived. The fleet in the end of UPPERCUT might as well be the [[Fleet of Holy Respite]] for all we know. What about the fleet that arrived August 30th, in ''The Fall of Reach''? Wasn't ''that'' supposed to be the Fleet of Particular Justice? As seen in ''Reach'', all Covenant fleets didn't arrive at once; they appeared in waves, which makes it impossible for us to determine which fleet was which.

Anyways, in light of this, we should correct a couple of things: First, make sure that only the ships that have been confirmed to be a part of this fleet are labeled as such. Second, change all articles where it's claimed or implied that the Fleet of Particular Justice was solely responsible for the attack on Reach, or that it was this fleet that arrived at the end of UPPERCUT. Unless we get further proof, that is. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 10:04, 17 November 2010 (EST)

:Agreed. If we aren't absolutely certain that a ship is from the ''Fleet of Particular Justice'', we shouldn't say anything of the sort. Here's another dillema: If the ''Fleet of Particular Justice'' indeed arrived on August 30<sup>th</sup>, rather than earlier, does that mean Thel was not in command of all Covenant vessels at Reach? Nothing has ever explicitly stated that he had complete command, only that he commanded the ''Fleet of Particular Justice''. Since we now know there were [[Fleet of Righteous Vigilance|other]], [[Fleet of Holy Respite|smaller]] Covenant fleets - not just task forces, but entire fleets - at Reach, this seems likely. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|&quot;Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson]] 10:18, 17 November 2010 (EST)

:Indeed. It has never been directly stated that Thel had complete command over the operation at Reach. Something that suggests otherwise is his line from the opening of ''Halo 2'': ''"I followed with all the ships in my command"''. This line not only implies there were other ships, but also that he did not have direct command of all the ships at Reach. This also spawns another question; since we now know there were other fleets present, we can't be sure if the 314 ships were all from the Fleet of Particular Justice. Thus, we don't know for a fact that there were 314 ships in the Fleet of Particular Justice. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 10:49, 17 November 2010 (EST)

::Do keep in mind that ''Halo: Reach'' moved the dates of the event earlier than what has been depicted in the novel. Every event that took place on the 30th August as depicted in the novel would need to adjust to the 12(?)/14(?)/16(?) August as shown in the game. Additionally, Thel might as well be the Joint Commander(?)/Officer(?)/Leader(?) of all fleets present during the Fall of Reach, and that the ''Fleet of Particular Justice'' is the lead of the joint fleet. As for whether did the all ships in the ''Fleet of Particular Justice'' actually chased the ''PoA'' as it escaped to Halo and credibility of Thel's line in Halo 2, I would question this; why would a commander redirect all of his ship under his command from continuing harassing the enemy stronghold simply to chase one ship? If the enemy stronghold has not been taken over, or that the enemy are still capable of launching an counter-assault, a commander would not make the choice of taking all of the ships away from a battle simply to chase a ship. My opinion on this and Thel's line is simply to support himself in explaining his actions, or in other words, he lied to help himself. Thus, Thel only took a handful of ships with him as he chased the ''PoA''... but again, this is only my opinion to make sense of what happened during the Fall of Reach.- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 11:05, 17 November 2010 (EST)

:::Yes, I am well aware of the date changes, which makes it entirely possible that the fleet seen at the end of LNoS is intended to be the same as the one that arrived on August 30th in ''TFoR''. However, the changes to major events are so drastic that we cannot base our assumptions on dates alone. Since we still hold ''TFoR'' canon in areas where it doesn't directly contradict with the game, I would say we still have assume that the August 30 fleet is canon. Which leaves us with two major fleets arriving, one on August 14th and another on August 30th. Of course, we didn't even see what happened in orbit in between those dates. In fact, from ''Halo: Reach'', we only get a small glimpse of what's happening in space, so it leaves a lot room for interpretation. 

:::As for the issue of Thel having command of the whole operation, anything's possible and Thel's line could be interpreted in many ways. However, I would point out that no official source (that I know, anyways) has claimed that Thel was in command of all forces at Reach. It's a likely possibility, though, considering his rank and apparent importance.

:::''I would question this; why would a commander redirect all of his ship under his command from continuing harassing the enemy stronghold simply to chase one ship?''

:::If Thel was indeed speaking the truth, it means two things:
:::1. He wasn't in command of all forces at Reach. It would be pointless for hundreds of ships to pursue one.
:::2. The Fleet of Particular Justice (which we know was under Thel's command) is significantly smaller than previously thought. Thel wouldn't obviously be taking massive amounts of ships away from the battle, perhaps around 15 or so, which is consistent with the flashback of the fleet arriving at Installation 04 in ''Halo 2'''s opening cinematic.

:::If he was lying, well, it renders the whole statement meaningless. Still, I do find it unlikely that a Sangheili warrior in a standing as high as Thel's would directly lie to the Hierarchs, considering his - and the Sangheili culture's - overall stance on lying (as demonstrated by their reaction at the Hierarchs lying about the Great Journey). If his character is of any indication, he'd rather suffer his punishment than lie to get himself out of a difficult situation. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 11:36, 17 November 2010 (EST)

Half of it for why it might have been every ship chasing the Autumn might been because the ship was headed to '''Installation 04 itself.''' They didn't know it was 04 before hand, but since they could arrive there within hours, it's possible just a few were sent initially, and after arriving there before the Pillar did they may have dropped a line telling the rest of the fleet to start coming quickly, because a Halo has been found. But in First Strike, John does describe the ships surrounding ''Unyielding Hierophant'' to be as much as there were at 04. Even if it wasn't all of them, it was A LOT. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 11:41, 17 November 2010 (EST)

:I've always believed that Thel meant he pursued the ''Autumn'' with all ships under his command that were not already engaged, not that he withdrew the entire fleet to chase one vessel. Remember that elements of the ''Second Fleet of Homogeneous Clarity'' were sent Installation 04's ruins prior to ''High Charity'''s arrival. The ships John was reffering to, or at least most of them, were not from the ''Fleet of Particular Justice''. Thus, we can't determine the size of the fleet based on that statement. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|&quot;Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have.&quot; -Thomas Jefferson]] 14:21, 17 November 2010 (EST)

''The Essential Visual Guide'' confirms that the fleets that arrived on August 14th and 30th are indeed separate, so ''TFoR'' canon hasn't been overridden in that respect. However, there's still the question of whether the 314 ships that arrived on August 30th were ''all'' part of the Fleet of Particular Justice, or if Particular Justice was merely a small part of a combined fleet.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I've noticed, the ''Visual Guide'' does not actually identify the entire fleet as Particular Justice at any point. In the Reach entry, the fleet that arrived on August 30th is simply referred to as a "full-fledged invasion fleet". In the entry for the ''Truth and Reconciliation'', it is stated that the ship was ''"part of the Covenant fleet which pursued the UNSC ''Pillar of Autumn'' from Reach and discovered Alpha Halo"''. The wording seems to indicate the entire Fleet of Particular Justice followed the Autumn, not just a small part of it. In addition, in the [[Priority Broadcast Log/Eleventh Cycle, Third Unit|broadcast log]] in the Adjunct section of ''The Flood'' reissue, the fleets of Particular Justice and Holy Respite are assigned to blockade the system perimeter to prevent any human craft from escaping, while the rest of the ships continue to glass Reach. The fact two fleets could be relegated to such a secondary task while the planet was being glassed seems to imply Particular Justice was simply one of many fleets that were sent in as one massive invading force.

In addition, as I argued earlier, Thel's statement ''"I followed with all the ships in my command"'' seems to imply all the ships at Reach ''weren't'' under his command, and weren't all part of Particular Justice. He could've always meant the ships that weren't engaged, but if the rest of the main fleet was still under his command, he'd be leaving them without a leader just to personally chase down one ship, something I find unlikely he would do if he was in command of the entire operation, or even in a particularly crucial position. If Particular Justice was composed of only 15 ships or so, them leaving to pursue the ''Autumn'' wouldn't have that much of an impact on the operation at Reach.

If this were the case, then we should no longer assume that most of the ships currently listed on the page were part of Particular Justice. This includes ''[[Sacred Promise]]'', ''[[Purity of Spirit]]'', ''[[Penance (ship)|Penance]]'', ''[[Esteem]]'', ''[[Reverence]]'', ''[[Commitment and Patience]]'', ''[[Devotion]]'', [[Unidentified cruiser (Particular Justice)|the unidentified cruiser]] and the unidentified supercruiser. I'm not exactly sure why ''Devotion'', ''Sacred Promise'' and ''Commitment and Patience'' are even on the list, because to my knowledge it hasn't even been specified what battle the ''Conversations from the Universe'' entry they're mentioned in is describing. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 10:57, 8 September 2011 (EDT)

== Why did the ships take refuge behind Threshold? ==

Master Chief overloaded the engines of the Pillar of Autumn, meaning there was presumably some nuclear sort of blast that was powerful enough to destroy Installation 04. Why would all the Covenant ships need to hide from it? I was just reading Halo: The Fall of Reach, and there it states that even less powerful Covenant ships can take a direct nuke hit, and the extent of the damage is only to lose energy shielding. My point is, if the overloading of ship engines was so powerful it would threaten an entire fleet, why did the UNSC not simply blow up their ships occasionally to destroy Covenant ships? I have a similar query about the Slipspace Drive used as a makeshift bomb in Halo: Reach. It is stated in the game that the drive is essentially the hardest piece of tech to get one's hands on (presumably because it is ridiculously expensive), but surely if it was powerful enough to destroy one of the Covenant's most powerful ships, the UNSC could manufacture or research some sort of 'Slipspace bomb'?

Back to the original question, I guess you could say that Thel 'Vadamee did not want to risk any damage whatsoever to his ships, so as a good leader had them shielded from the blast... My actual point here is the article states that ''Thel 'Vadamee ordered all ships to take refuge behind Threshold to avoid being destroyed'', but if a long distance nuclear blast is good enough to destroy an entire Covenant fleet, why don't the UNSC do this more often?

:A nuclear device requires an atmosphere to spread - air feeds the fire. The nuclear device first used at Chi Ceti IV detonated outside of the shield and was so the detonation was not powerful enough to penetrate the shields. The second device was inside and within the ship, fed by the antimatter and oxygen, and due to the shield - concentrated on a smaller area. When the Flood was released, the Fleet of Particular Justice prepared to evacuate Installation 04. These ships, it seems, left the system. The danger to shipping would not have been the detonation, but the ring tearing itself apart. The seven ships behind Threshold were not from the Fleet of Particular Jutice, but an advanced scout detachment from the fleet protecting High Charity, which is due to arrive soon. Back to the nukes, the only successful detonation I remember that went through shields from the outside was a NOVA - a rediculously destructive drive (imagine a 26th century equivalent of ''Tsar Bomba'') that detonated inside a carrier; being fed from it, it was powerful enough to travel in vacuum to other ships, penetrate their shields and be fed, then work their way to the next ship.

:The "slipspace bomb" was not a bomb of explosive origin, bur called a bomb due to its destructive nature. The device was intended to open a rift large enough to engulf the entire corvette and a large part of the supercarrier. The corvette wasn't destroyed, it simply entered slipspace. Manufacturing slipspace bombs or messing with the drive in any way is dangerous - a repair team was once sent into slipspace - without the ship. I'd say that danger and expence combined is what stopped the UNSC from persuing this venture.-- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 15:18, 18 December 2010 (EST)

::Actually, according to the bonus content in the reprint of ''The Flood'', the ''Ascendant Justice'' and the ships in First Strike are apparently part of the Fleet of Particular Justice. But to answer the original question, the nuclear blast itself isn't why they took cover, but the subsequent debris from the ring. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 12:13, 19 December 2010 (EST)

== Size of the Fleet ==

Shouldn't this be 60 vessels?  This was stated in the terminals.  Also the 315 number is from all the Fleets at Reach I thought.[[User:Lord &#39;Themee|Lord &#39;Themee]] ([[User talk:Lord &#39;Themee|talk]]) 02:38, 17 November 2014 (EST)
@@ Line 22: / Line 22: @@
 Bungie has, so far, only used the CCS and the Assault Carrier models for ships. If you are refering to the first image that one is fan made, as there was no Carrier in H2's opener. The size difference is likely a matter of perspective or a mistake. [[User talk:ProphetofTruth|ProphetofTruth]] 19:26, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
-:Umm, there ''was'' an Assault Carrier in Halo 2's opening. -  [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="red"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Talk'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Halo-343|<font color="orange"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Contribs'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Editcount/Halo-343|<font color="green"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Edits'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] 19:32, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
+:Umm, there ''was'' an Assault Carrier in Halo 2's opening. - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="red"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Talk'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Halo-343|<font color="orange"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Contribs'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Editcount/Halo-343|<font color="green"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Edits'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] 19:32, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
 There was an Assault Carrier in H2's opening cinematic, yes, I believe ProphetofTruth may have mistakenly written carrier instead of cruiser. It's odd too that Bungie won't use additional ship classes, makes the fleets look kinda incomplete. Not to mention, those two ship classes aren't used in the novels. It's truly odd, to me, why the novels and games can't go together a bit more smoothly. Thanks for the info, I was unaware that was a fan made image. Nicely done one though. [[User talk:Quakeomaniac|Quakeomaniac]] 04:58, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
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 Shouldn't this be 60 vessels?  This was stated in the terminals.  Also the 315 number is from all the Fleets at Reach I thought.[[User:Lord &#39;Themee|Lord &#39;Themee]] ([[User talk:Lord &#39;Themee|talk]]) 02:38, 17 November 2014 (EST)
-:I got the impression that the 60 ships was just the initial growth over a few years and that the fleet may have continued growing before Reach, though it's possible this was meant to be the "present" number. But I've doubted for a long time the notion that all of the 315 ships that arrived on August 30 were from Particular Justice—in ''Halo 2'' Thel states that he followed "with all the ships in (his) command", ie. the entire Fleet of Particular Justice, yet there weren't hundreds of ships at Alpha Halo and many more Covenant ships remained at Reach. Plus I don't think it's ever been stated that Particular Justice comprised all those 315 ships. Since we know there were many fleets at Reach (including the [[Fleet of Valiant Prudence]]) it seems more likely to me the 315 ships were a combined fleet which included other identified fleets (albeit under Thel's operational command), with Particular Justice comprising only a part of it. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 02:51, 17 November 2014 (EST)
-::My thoughts exactly. Lord "Half a Continent" Hood's line was ''obviously'' meant to be hyperbole, so I've always found it irritating that the figure was taken at face value (however briefly) in official media. Valiant Prudence had around six ships and the fleet that arrived on August 14th had at least sixteen. Thel' armada (Particular Justice, Righteous Vigilance, Holy Respite, and perhaps other fleets) had 315. With generous rounding we end up with roughly 340 Covenant vessels engaged in the invasion. We can infer that Righteous Vigilance was attached to the August 30th group since their ships destroyed three ODPs; all twenty platforms remained active until that date. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our vengeance is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 08:27, 17 November 2014 (EST)