Editing Talk:Fall of Reach

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== Why didn't the Covenant glass Reach much sooner? ==

I understand that the Covenant sent a small battlegroup lead by a cloaked Assault Carrier to Reach, in order to do things such as secure the information at the Visegrad Relay and Sword Base, but why wait so long until bringing the rest of the fleet to start glassing? Surely the Covenant could just glass everything in sight other than the 'data-retrieval areas' like Sword Base, instead of using things like Corvettes to attack New Alexandria? Is the idea that the Covenant would be putting themselves in danger to glass straight away because surface-level defenses (of which I can't think of many), orbital defenses and the UNSC fleet could still destroy them? Do the Covenant really have to wipe out every single UNSC defense before glassing? I'm confused... [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 10:36, 9 December 2010 (EST)

:I assume that they do so for safety. We see the cruisers over New Alexandria get pretty close, and even in Halo 3 the ships are right above the target, not in orbit - presumably, if there were still an organised UNSC force down there they might be able to organise a MAC strike, rockets, missiles, artillery, etc, and hit the cruiser while it's vulnerable. The Covenant can probably spare the ships, but the future Arbiter is playing it smart, conserving his assets until he can use them.

:The actual invasion is because, as always, the Covenant have trouble telling humans apart from Forerunner artefacts on their Luminaries, and assume that there must be at least some artefacts in human population centres. They go in to get them, find nothing but terrified humans, assume they've been destroyed and start killing the "heretics". There's also the fact that they might not know just how extensive the Forerunner presence on the planet it - there's the Sword Base ruins, and those under Castle Base, but how much more is there? Naturally the Covenant would want to be ''dead'' sure, before risking hitting holy relics. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 15:33, 9 December 2010 (EST)
::I always assumed that they were also trying to find human star charts, or the Elites simply wanted to give the Minors a chance to get some kills and up themselves to Major. -- [[User talk:SFH|SFH]] 17:54, 9 December 2010 (EST)

So essentially the game consists of you fighting an advance Covenant force trying to find Forerunner relics (did the Zealot Elites actually take any valuable information from the Visegrad relay?), then scouting out this advance force, fighting this force alongside a large UNSC force ([[Battle of Viery]]), uncovering the cloaked Assault Carrier, which then proceeds to destroy UNSC vessels. Then you blow up the Assault Carrier, but at this point the Covenant send a huge fleet in. It is at this point I am confused - in the level [[Exodus]], why do the Covenant go through such trouble with sending in troops, setting up comm jammers, and sending in Banshees, Phantoms and Corvettes? Why don't they just start glassing straight away? Regardless, then the game consists of the glassing starting for real, doubled with the defense of Halsey in Sword Base in order to secure the 'package' and bringing it to the Pillar of Autumn before the whole damn world is glassed. That mostly makes sense... is the point that in levels like [[Exodus]] the Covenant is waiting for 'artifacts' to be found or not found, or that they are fighting in the skies, destroying all orbital defenses and UNSC forces that threaten them so they can start glassing proper without the risk of being shot down (as the level Pillar of Autumn shows, a single MAC round can take down a Covenant ship while glassing). [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 04:59, 10 December 2010 (EST)

:I think it may be a mix of both waiting for new artifact discoveries and clearing before glassing. As technologically advanced as the Covenant may seem, they are still vulnerable to counter-ops, especially when there are "demons" nearby. The infantry in Exodus were probably used to clear out UNSC ground forces who are capable of fighting back. Comm jammers, of course, were there to prevent the UNSC ground forces from forming a proper counter-op that included other elements of their forces (i.e. the Air Force). From the Covenants' perspective, who knows what surface-to-air weapons the UNSC has lying in wait hidden in their grand cities? The proper thing would be to have a thorough scavenge with ground forces before leaving your ships open to hiding hostiles. I hope it's clear what I'm trying to say because I'm writing this late at night.--[[User:Ender the Xenocide|<font color="Green">Ender the Xenocide]]</font> 05:47, 10 December 2010 (EST)
::Makes sense. At that point, the Covenant still didn't know much about the humans, and so it would be a bad idea to rush in and start glassing. Another quick question I had - it really never made Cortana's role very clear. It appears only 'part' of her was with Halsey, so she could get the Forerunner information... What was the Forerunner information? Was it information about [[Installation 04]] that caused Cortana's 'random jump' into Slipspace per the [[Cole Protocol]] actually be a directed one there? So essentially the Forerunner complex under Sword Base was actually behind the discovery which lead Master Chief to the ring and actually saved humanity? [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 07:42, 10 December 2010 (EST) EDIT: this can't be the case, since Cortana's page states "However, Cortana secretly inserted coordinates translated from symbols on a rock that Master Chief discovered on Sigma Octanus IV, thinking that they were of some significance to the Covenant." So what was the purpose of this Forerunner information? Was it even helpful? [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 07:44, 10 December 2010 (EST)

:Wait, are you talking about the Forerunner information from Sigma Octanus IV or from the artifact under Sword Base?--[[User:Ender the Xenocide|<font color="Green">Ender the Xenocide]]</font> 07:51, 10 December 2010 (EST)
::My question is the purpose of the artifact under Sword Base. Why was it so important Cortana gain its information? It can't be that the information that it gave directed Cortana to jump to the Halo ring, because that was information from Sigma Octanus IV... So what relevance does it have to the game? It seems a bit random that you'd spend so long defending and transporting a discovery that has no real implications for the what is to come (the jump to Installation 04)... [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 08:15, 10 December 2010 (EST)

:::My interpretation is that the artifact under Sword Base helped Cortana decrypt the navigational information from the previously-indecipherable Sigma Octanus artifact. Or the other way around. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 08:20, 10 December 2010 (EST)

== Halo: Reach - retcon or actually consistent? ==

As I'm reading Halo: The Fall of Reach right now, it seems near-impossible that the 'pre-battle' (the first encounter with the Elite strike team at the Visegrad Relay all the way to the arrival of the second Covenant fleet, where the 'fall of Reach' in the novel begins) that was shown in Halo: Reach is actually plausible. How would a massive Covenant attack force, leading to huge ground battles (the [[Battle of Viery]] and the [[Siege of New Alexandria]]) and space battles ([[Operation: UPPER CUT]] and all warfare until the second fleet arrived) just be hid from the rest of the galaxy? How would the Remote Scanning Outpost [[Fermion]]'s crew be so surprised when it was apparent that a Covenant fleet was incoming (in the book, their surprise it clearly from the fact there IS a Covenant fleet, not ANOTHER)? Why would the Pillar of Autumn and other ships near the planet not have instantly been notified?

If this is actually plausible, there must be a huge flaw in the UNSC chain of command. How can the UNSC army, marines, navy, ONI, and even high command (all present and active in the game) all be involved in this huge battle, while the second Covenant fleet arriving is such a huge shock? 

Another very inconsistent piece of canon is the Halo: Reach announcement trailer. This Halopedia page shows that the events of the trailer take place AFTER the level 'The Package', but by then Kat is dead - yet she appears in the trailer? In fact, at this point Noble Team isn't ready for combat at all (Carter says in the trailer "This is Sierra Two-Five-Nine. You've got Spartans on the ground, sir. We're not going anywhere."), but instead Emile, Carter and Noble-6 are busy trying to reach the ship-breaking facility where the Pillar of Autumn is docked at, and Jun is escorting Halsey to CASTLE base (where she is operating in the novel, so this is consistent). A more obvious point is that the dialogue within the Fermion states that pings are occurring below the Orbital Defense Grid (Covenant ships deploying dropships to land on Reach), and Reach Station Gamma replies this is impossible, but why would seem to be impossible (be such a big shock), since (1) it has already happened a fair few times since the invasion of Reach has started (e.g. by the Covenant Supercarrier 'Long Night of Solace') and (2) this event takes place in the novel long after the UNSC fleet deploys at [[Rally Point Zulu]] and starts fighting the incoming second Covenant fleet (so it's not like the Covenant suddenly arrived from Slipspace to below the Orbital Defense Grid, to the surprise of all UNSC forces - the second fleet firstly arrived outside the Orbital Defense Grid, attacking ships and Orbital Defense Platforms, and then some ships made precise jumps within the grid to deploy dropships). 

Moreover, in the novel, when dropships are sent to Reach from the Covenant fleet, Master Chief notes that the 'invasion of Reach has started'. Of course this is untrue. These would by no means be the first dropships to go to Reach. This can be seen as Master Chief being unaware that most of the events of Halo: Reach have occurred, but once again it doesn't feel right. The game Halo: Reach should have stated somehow that the news of the invasion was strangely withheld from huge amounts of UNSC personnel (though I'm sure people on Reach would have been able to contact people on other planets, thus rendering this idea very improbable). [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 06:34, 26 December 2010 (EST)

:Sorry for the blunt frankness, but yes, it's a retcon. Bungie thought the actual battle of Reach from the novel wasn't epic enough, so they changed it to a more drawn out invasion instead of a short but massive space and ground battle.


Why would Ct. Keyes doom 20+ Spartans on a ride in a pelican if he had to land anyway? how did they land the POA? why was red team defending generators when the planet had begun being glassed two weeks before that and apperently they weren't useful in this case because Jorge shouldn't of died? Why was Dr. Halsey so sure of Noble Team when she should and could of relied on her Spartans since they should of been on the planet? and lastly does anyone know the new or actual date Master Chief got his Mark V armor since the old date he got it the covenant were glassing the planet and fighting the UNSC ALL over the Planet?06:25, 22 January 2011 (EST)Carter06:25, 22 January 2011 (EST)

Plus since the unsc send around 60% of it fleet in the system and nothing as been said  about what happen to them. Im also certain that 152 ships doesnt represent the said 60%. Once again It look like that in the game the fleet of particular justice arrive just after the destruction of the LNoS has implied by Holland "It the whole damm covenant fleet." To me the event of august 30th have been retconned [[User:Chief frank 001|<font color="LimeGreen">C</font>]][[User talk:Chief frank 001|<font color="RoyalBlue">F</font>]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Chief frank 001|<font color="Salmon">0</font>]]UoH/A Company|<font color="Gold">0</font>]][[Special:Editcount/Chief frank 001|<font color="GreenYellow">1</font>]]</sup> 11:10, 2 August 2011 (EDT)

:Not necessarily. That could just be another fleet of a dozen ships to reinforce whatever is left of the scout after discovering the LNoS's destruction. Reinforcement ships were on their way to stop the Covenant and would arrive shortly after the Covenant fleet's. Furthermore we should take into consideration that the Covenant were attacking other planets, too, making the Reach attack force less than the number of Covenant ships in-system. The UNSC was still holding back well into August- it could be that Particular Justice arrived much later to take advantage of the already-weakened UNSC fleet. Answering other questions, John did not receive MJOLNIR armour in August 2552; he was undergoing improvements to his neural interface to allow Cortana into it. Mark V was already issued. Red team was taken out of RED FLAG to defend the ODGs-even if they were called right before the Autumn went groundside they'd still need a dropship.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 12:52, 2 August 2011 (EDT)

I was thinking something else.  In Halo: The Fall of Reach, in the very back of the book when Jacob is saying that his men don't know what's going on down there, and if I knew that I was one trip away from seeing Miranda again, etc.  I was under the impression that Keyes knew about what was going on at Reach already, and that everybody else '''didn't''' know what was happening.  So I guess most of the higher-ups knew about the invasion when it began.  But they just tried to keep it on the down-low for some reason (maybe morality reasons, HighCom wanted to keep the situation as under-control as possible before blowing the horn.  But that's still a really crappy reason).  So the whole surprise wasn't that the Covenant were on Reach.  The surprise was, "OMG, 700 fucking Covenant ships just jumped from Slipspace."  After the Long Night of Solace was destroyed.  But then that brings up something annoying.  1st of all.  If HighCom didn't keep it on the down-low, it was possible that the UNSC may have had more time to prepare against the main assault.  Also, if we say that the 700 ships was the "main attack" at the Fall of Reach, then should we update the article to put everything before that as events leading up to the Fall of Reach?  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  15:38, 2 August 2011 (EDT)!

:: Isn't it possible that the crystal allowed for the time difference seen in tFoR and Halo: Reach? To me, that seems likely, much more so than the current canon stiching done in the artcile.

Also, the location of the PoA in Reach is not an issue, there's a timeframe when john is in cyro where it could have landed. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 11:17, 26 June 2012 (EDT)

== Hurricane?? ==

Where is it said that ther is a hurricane, guys?

Sign your posts!!! Did u not play reach? You see the hurricane during the cutscene when the sabre is launching during the level long night of solace!!![[#@lof@n1234]]-Forgive My English 11:23, 11 March 2011 (EST)

== UNSC victory? Uhh No. ==
Why the heck does it say the battle was partly a UNSC victory. It wasn't? While the information in the outcomes section should stay, it should not be under the subheaded declaring a partial UNSC victory. <font color="black">Something<b>Different</b></font> 02:05, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

Maybe, because they managed to escape with the pillar of autumn intact and score a crushing victory on 04 which would turn the tide in the human-covenant war in the unsc's favour? I dunno :) --[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 17:10, 5 August 2011 (EDT)

:I wouldn't call the Autumn escaping a success, though it's probably as debatable as the Allied 'victory' in the Battle of France. Perhaps we should decide on when and when not to call an outcome a 'victory' .-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 17:36, 5 August 2011 (EDT)

Id class it as a minor victory myself, it was crucial that they escaped as they as i said before did go on to score a crushing decisive victory on alpha halo which fractured the covie leadership. --[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 17:49, 5 August 2011 (EDT)

It's been changed to a Covenant victory. In the outcome section though, it does state state everything that happened. Honestly though, the ''Pillar of Autumn'' escaping was way more important than the fleet being lost and Reach being glassed. Why? Well, the ''Pillar'' escaping prevented the entire galaxy from being devoid of life. And the Chief's actions there also prevented the flood from escaping and taking over every being in the world. Soooo... yeah. I'd much rather Reach be lost. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 19:22, 5 August 2011 (EDT)

:It's insignificant if looking at the battle, solely - Cortana didn't know where they were going and there was no battle plan beyond just running away. Hitler was an insignificant participant in the Battle of Passchendaele and his injury, although notable, is irrelevant to Germany's defeat. The Autumn leaving is unnecessary as a 'UNSC victory' as it was of little relevance to the battle.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 20:56, 5 August 2011 (EDT)

::I wasn't saying it was significant to the battle. However, it was significant to the war as a whole. So yes, the UNSC lost. I'm not debating that. I'm actually agreeing with what is already written. Without a doubt, it is worth noting in the outcome section. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 21:00, 5 August 2011 (EDT)

:::I agree, it's a Passchendaele Hitler. It's worthless if the outcome is summarised (eg. The outcome field of the Infobox) but is notable in a more in-depth analysis.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 21:08, 5 August 2011 (EDT)

I see what you mean.. --[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 07:38, 6 August 2011 (EDT)

''Phil said: "Well, the ''Pillar'' escaping prevented the entire galaxy from being devoid of life. And the Chief's actions there also prevented the flood from escaping and taking over every being in the world. Soooo... yeah. I'd much rather Reach be lost."'' 
Soooo, no.  If the Pillar of Autumn didn't jump to Halo, then the Covenant wouldn't have found it... So no, your point holds no weight.  In fact, if the Covenant didn't attack Reach, there is a chance that Cortana and the Office of Naval Intelligence may have discovered the data in the rock at Sigma Octanas and have been able to jump to Installation 04 without the Covenant following them (all they needed to do was take a second look at the rock, as that was all Cortana needed to do).  Which would have given them time to digest and take samples of all the data and technology at Installation 04, arguably jumping humanity forward more than finding the Prothean cache on Mars.  I don't know man, but it keeps me up at night.  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  21:27, 6 August 2011 (EDT)

Dont keep saying that Vegerot. --[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 04:59, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

:Firstly, a little OT, but as per CMSH, if you could make that part of your sig proper it would be helpful. At the moment, it just looks like you're trying to make it a catch phrase like "brooklyn rage". And being much less successful. Perhaps change the font, the size or the colour of it to differentiate it from the rest of your test?

:Secondly, it's clear that the Covenant were ''already'' at Halo when the Pillar of Autumn arrived, and in fact were just as surprised to find the Pillar of Autumn there as the Autumn crew were to find a Covenant armada holding orbital positions around a piece of astroengineering brilliance. Keyes and Cortana ''conjectured'' that the Covenant followed them through slipspace from Reach, and overshot because the Covenant have "always been faster". On the other hand, the Covenant Prophet in The Flood assumes that the Autumn itself followed them. Both sides think the other followed them. We still don't know precisely how the Covenant found Halo, though the Sigma Octanus artefact and information gained from the Reach ruins probably had something to do with it, since that was what led Cortana there. If the Autumn hadn't escaped Reach, the Covenant would have been unopposed on Halo as they meddled where they didn't belong, and unleashed things beyond their ability to contain. We know the future Arbiter was no slouch, and put containment and isolation measures in place to try to contain the Flood - and perhaps Guilty Spark would have reached out with an offer of tentative alliance with the meddlers to ensure the enforcement of containment protocol. But I don't think in the long term they would have been very successful, and neither would the Covenant ever think of destroying the Halo ring. If the Autumn hadn't carried the Chief to Halo, the Flood would have escaped eventually, dooming everyone. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 07:49, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

Look on the Main Page's talk page.  I'm trying to figure out how to do that, I really am.  <span style="color:##FF0000;">I don't know man, but it keeps me up at night.</span> [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  17:12, 7 August 2011 (EDT)


Dont keep saying that Veregot --[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 17:01, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

== July 25th ==

According to H3:R, the Fall of Reach took place on the 25th, not the 24th of July, 2552.<sup>[[:File:ONI Plaque Right.jpg|H3:R]]</sup> This suggests that the battle officially began on the 25th, and that events that transpired on the 24th were those that lead to the battle. As such, I'm planning to update this article using content from H3:R and introduce a newer layout. Any comments before I do so? — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 09:49, 5 June 2011 (EDT)

:I agree, with one exception: the invasion actually began on the 23rd. The Covenant made landfall on the night of July 23rd and shut down the Visegrád communications relay. However, the sabotage of the relay and Noble Team's investigation the following day were classified. The UNSC officially declared the invasion on July 25th. They claimed that it ended on August 30th, when the planet ultimately fell. In reality, pockets of resistance lasted until September 7th. So, the Fall of Reach actually lasted from July 23rd to September 7th. However, like you said, the dates given on the memorial plaque are the official dates given by the UNSC. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 17:11, 5 June 2011 (EDT)

::We'll treat those as events leading up to the Fall. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 17:30, 5 June 2011 (EDT)

== Rewrite as per Data Drops ==

I have spent quite a while looking into the data drops, and will summarise their meanings into dates, placing them with other known dates.

*July 18: Stanforth notifies Parangosky of the Sigma Octanus IV artefact and suggests a possible link between it and the Reach artefacts.<ref>''Data Drop 2''</ref>

*July 19: Parangosky notifies Stanforth of suspicious activity occuring in the Epsilon Eridani system, believing it to be the work of insurrectionists. She informs Stanforth of the high probability of the Covenant discovering Reach in the next few months. Parangosky, therefore, brings up the possibility of initiating [[Operation: RED FLAG]].<ref>''Data Drop 3''</ref>

*July 23: The [[Visegrád Relay]] is attacked by a Covenant strike team, who have detected Forerunner relics. They proceed to kill the occupants in the surrounding area and disable communications around the planet. Suspecting it to be a continuation of insurrectionist activity in the system, a UNSC Army unit is sent in.<ref>''Patrol''</ref>

*July 24: With contact being lost with the Army unit, Col. Holland has NOBLE team sent into the facility. Discovering the presence of Covenant forces, the team re-activates the communication relay and notifies Holland of the enemy presence. Consequently, WINTER CONTINGENCY is enacted.

*August 1: Stanforth refuses the suggesting of initiating Operation: RED FLAG, as the initiation of the mission would give the Covenant the chance to defeat the UNSC at Reach. He then sends in another document describing the original plan, which would involve tricking larger Covenant ships into approaching Reach by opening up holes in their defence. A team of SPARTANs would then be sent in to capture the vessel as it prepares to harvest Forerunner relics. Stanforth reluctantly agrees with the idea of sacrificing Reach to the Covenant, so long as the fighting has devolved to such an extent that the planet is deamed "indefensible". Nevertheless, Stanforth informs Halsey of the plan's mission specifications, and has most of the remaining S-IIs recalled to Reach to begin preparations.<ref>''Data Drop 4''</ref>

*August 14th: The Covenant supercarrier ''[[Long Night of Solace]]'' is destroyed by a slipspace bomb. Unfortunately, the celebration is cut short as another Covenant fleet arrives.

*August 23: <s>Emile</s> Jun makes mention of a rumour that the S-II RED team has been sent to the front lines.

*August 27: Stanforth messages Parangosky, informing her that ONI is trying to make sure that the SPARTAN-IIs remain ignorant as to the scale of the campaign so as to keep their attention to RED FLAG. Unfortunately, Stanforth has received word from Col. Holland over the destruction of the ''[[Long Night of Solace]]'', the precise kind of ships needed for RED FLAG. Preparation is officially in full-swing, with Capt. Jacob Keyes; the AI Cortana and the {{UNSCShip|Pillar of Autumn}} being selected for the mission.<ref>''Data Drop 5''</ref>

*August 30: With the arrival of the [[Fleet of Particular Justice]], the Covenant quickly finish off the UNSC fleet and expand their glassing operations. Due to Gamma Station being unable to delete navigation data from an ONI ship and the ODGs becoming under threat, the Pillar of Autumn is forced to evacuate with only two SPARTANs - one of whom is clinically-dead.

===Sources===
{{Ref/Sources}}

===Analysis===
It would appear that the Fall of Reach was a major blunder on the part of the brass, whereby they willingly lowered their defences in an attempt to complete RED FLAG. To ensure this plan, the SPARTAN-IIs only receive word of the Covenant invasion near the end of August, almost a month after the start of the battle; it is only then that RED team is sent to the front lines.

The success of RED FLAG relies on the capture of a carrier. The ''Long Night of Solace'', a supercarrier Stanforth was unaware of until the 27th, was destroyed a whole ''thirteen'' days earlier. Clearly there is a major gap in communication between him and Col. Holland. Although they are from different branches (a gap in communication could be understood), they are both working with ONI, and their defence missions should be available to each other.

There is continuous mention of the defence of Reach when RED FLAG is mentioned - Stanforth takes note that to complete RED FLAG, he must be willing to give the Covenant the opportunity to glass Reach, perhaps explaining why the Covenant vessels near New Alexandria weren't being attacked.

-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 14:08, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

:Looks like exactly what the Data Drops are saying. The only point of contention I have is where it says ''"August 23: Emile makes mention of a rumour that the S-II RED team has been sent to the front lines."'' August 23rd was the [[Siege of New Alexandria]] and I don't recall anything there where Emile mentioned an S-II team. Is it possible you mean [[Jun-A266]], when he asked Carter ''"Sir, that true about Gauntlet, Red and Echo Teams assigned to civilian evac ops?"'' [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 15:53, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
::Yes, I believe he did mean Jun. At any rate, this sums up the battle quite well. You are also correct in saying this was a blunder on the part of the UNSC commanders, especially the folks at ONI. If Halsey hadn't been kept in the dark about everything, RED FLAG might have succeeded. But then again, if the ''Pillar'' had not fled exactly the way it did, they may have never found Installation 04... So I suppose it all pans out in the grand scheme of things, even if it did result in the biggest military and civilian loss the UNSC had ever had. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 16:04, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

:::There, corrected :p It would seem that the whole operation went sour near the end of August because Stanforth was desperate to find and capture a carrier, meaning that the intentional lowering of their defences wouldn't be in vain; he finally perished on August 30th as Thel 'Vadamee's ''Fleet of Particular Justice'' reinforced the other Covenant fleets, too weakened to defend themselves. I think there is a slight problem with the timeline, though; Stanforth says on the 27th that the S-IIs are being kept out of the dark, while RED is already on deployment on the 23rd. Therefore, I attempted to find an explanation by suggesting that they were kept out of the dark as to the ''extent'' of the battle - it'll be too hard to hide a battle on that scale for over a month.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 16:28, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

:Excellent work, gathering all the information together. It's good to see 343 trying to patch up the wounds in the canon after ''Reach'', making the battle somewhat more believable. -  [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="green">('''Talk''')</font>]] 16:41, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

::::Forerunner, is it possible that Echo and Gauntlet are S III teams (or maybe even the unseen S II class 2)? That would fix all problems. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 17:04, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

::Currently their page marks them as Spartan teams. But there doesn't seem to be enough information to say what type of Spartans they are. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 17:14, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

:::Then this may help to suggest they aren't IIs. Should it be noted? [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 17:25, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

:There are a few more plot holes that can now be filled. Red Team was deployed to assist civilian evacuation operations around August 23;<ref>''New Alexandria''</ref> however, they were led to believe that the invasion was much smaller than it really was.<ref name="DD5">''Data Drop 5''; implied in Halsey's journal</ref> Within the next few days, several Spartans were flown to the Aszod boneyard and were subsequently recalled to Camp Hathcock.<ref>''Breakpoint'' radio conversation</ref> By the 27th, twenty-five of the twenty-eight active NAVSPECWEAP-oriented SPARTAN-IIs,<ref name="DD5"/><ref>''Halo Wars'' timeline</ref><ref>''Defiant to the End''</ref><ref>''First Strike'' adjunct, Fred's psych exam</ref> (the missing three being Gray Team), assembled at the camp, some being pulled directly from combat.<ref name="DD5"/><ref group="note">Those Spartans assigned to Army SPECWAR, (Jorge and the "dead" Kurt), and those assigned to the Office of Naval Intelligence, (the washed-out advisers and Black Team), are not part of this count, as they were no longer subject to NAVSPECWEAP command.</ref> At this point, the Spartans were given second-generation Mark V armor.<ref>This is rather clearly implied in ''The Essential Visual Guide'', and it helps reconcile the original August 29, 2552 issue date with the retconned November 4, 2551 issue date.</ref> Meanwhile, NOBLE and other S-III teams like Gauntlet and Echo were deployed on high-priority missions across the planet;<ref group="note">''The Essential Visual Guide'' states several times that while most Spartans operate within the Navy, some teams, like NOBLE, are assigned to the Army, others to the Marine Corps, and still others to the Air Force; it very strongly suggests that there are quite a few Spartans outside the Navy. This likely refers to "special" SPARTAN-IIIs like NOBLE, [http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?cid=24530 who possessed the genetic markers sought by the SPARTAN-II program] and were thus spirited away, augmented separately from their peers, given MJOLNIR, and deployed like S-IIs. However, given that Alpha and Beta companies had 197 and 118 "leftover" candidates, respectively, the various branches would have had access to a large recruiting pool for their own Spartan units, even if they weren't quite up to par with the SPARTAN-IIs or NOBLE Team. Of course, these units may also have contained Class-II SPARTAN-IIs. Gauntlet, Echo, and the team in Aszod, which may have comprised one or both of the aforementioned teams, were presumably comprised of such non-Navy personnel.</ref> by the 30th, at least one such team had been wiped out in Aszod, as had NOBLE.<ref>''Lone Wolf''</ref>

:All the while, the Spartans remained "in the dark" about the severity of the invasion, while the Army held the far side of the planet with a moderate degree of success.<ref name="DD5"/> HIGHCOM and ONI waited for the Fleet of Particular Justice to arrive, deliberately staying their counteroffensives; they rightly suspected that the fleet dispatched to glass the planet would contain a few ''Class-Five'' carriers (''CAS'' or ''CSO''), one of which was needed for RED FLAG.<ref name="DD5"/> Of course, they couldn't have expected the scale of 'Vadamee's fleet and were thus overrun within hours. If Holland had immediately told Stanforth about ''Long Night of Solace'', rather than ordering UPPER CUT and inadvertently destroying the planet, things might have gone much differently. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero Nice job breaking it, hero.] RED FLAG was a good plan, but it was a bit like playing Russian roulette with all but one cylinder loaded. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 20:33, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

The only plot hole I know of left to reconcile is why the ''Pillar of Autumn'' was docked on Reach's surface rather than up in orbit, unless you guys know of any others. But otherwise, it's great the whole debacle is finally getting resolved! [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 23:06, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
:I believe (because of the data drops) that the ''Pillar'' was there because it had been yanked from the boneyard at Azsod and refitted. I don't think it had been flown for many years before that point. I believe there isn't anything to contradict this either. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 00:42, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
::Damn! It says it was recommishioned (along with other Halcyon-class cruisers) in 2550 to serve in some battle. I don't really know what to say now. I guess this would show that Halcyon class vessels are qualified for atmosphere. (One thing to pull out of this, the ''Pillar'' crashed one Installation 04 due to damage, not because it was incapable of landing) Anyways, it could be there for further refitting, or to pick up Cortana. There isn't anything that shows this for a fact though. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 00:49, 15 October 2011 (EDT)

:::The Halcyons were saved from the scrap heap because of their interesting design and subsequently recommissioned in a re-fit. According to FoR, the ''Autumn'' was given a ''further'' refit in August 2552 to make her of better use for RED FLAG.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 07:21, 15 October 2011 (EDT)

The Autumn could take off with the help of thrusters. That says nothing about landing, especially when there's no dock around. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 02:20, 15 October 2011 (EDT)

Well, it had to ''get'' on the ground in the first place. I believe somebody here likes to use the phrase "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." It has never been stated that they can't land on a planet. It was kinda just assumed because the (heavily damaged) PoA crashed on Installation 04. We ignored the fact that it had suffered near irreperable damage in the minutes before this. There is, in fact, some circumstantial evidence to suggest they can land: the fact that Spark suggested the crew of the ''Pillar'' land on 04 in one of the terminals we've gotten to see. Also, in the Halo 2 flashback of Reach (see [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnmsgI6SOp0 here]) it shows the ''Pillar'' breaking the Covenant blockade as the Covies are glassing the planet. It even looks like it's coming from the planet. This isn't very solid, but I'm fine with that. So here is what it appears happened, assuming the PoA can land: 

*The PoA prepares to go to slipspace (Good question here, where were they gonna go to?), but turns back to Reach when they get a transmission that massive Covenant reinforcments arrived, including ships that fit the bill for RED FLAG. They also turn back because the brass realizes that they've bitten off more than they can chew, and need lots of help.
*The Spartans are sent to Gamma station and the ODP generators as the battle erupts around them. The ''Pillar'' fights ships in orbit around the planet. 
*The fleet is all but defeated, the ODPs have fallen silent, and the PoA rescues Blue team from Gamma station. The chief puts himself into cryo.
*Then the ''Pillar'' lands to pick up Cortana, UNSC evacuees, and Nobel team/the [[Unidentified SPARTAN unit (Aszod)|team]] found dead at Azsod. This last part fails however, because all are dead or unable to get to the ''Pillar'' in time, except for Noble Six, who had to man the Onager to protect the Autumn as it fled. This move to pick up the Spartans could have been done with the hopes of still completing RED FLAG.

There. It all fits, not seamlessly, but there it is. We do need to find out if Halcyons can land, but that's the only thing standing in the way of this making sense. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 10:48, 15 October 2011 (EDT)

:I remember a quote somewhere where someone protests against the Autumn landing, since it's not rated for atmosphere, or something like that. Can't find it yet, though. But I mean "land" as in the same way a blimp would land versus an airplane or helicopter. An airplane or helicopter can just touch down on the ground wherever it needs to, provided it has enough space, while a blimp needs the help of a dock in midair. So it can come down to the surface to meet with a dock, it just can't be expected to do in places without one. That, and it wouldn't be able to take off again without additional thrusters.

:But they might probably explain this in the next Data Drop. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 11:25, 15 October 2011 (EDT)

::We see in the ship-breaking yard that Halcyons are indeed sent there to die. Simply abandoning a vessel while ready to crash into a planet is not a bright idea - the force of the impact could be a hazard to people nearby as rubble returns to the planet. Perhaps the Autumn has some never-before-seen vertical boosters that are powerful enough to slow it down in-atmospher. In fact, it would be a design flaw ''not'' to install vertical thrusters. Take note of the space orbiter recently retired by NASA - it has thrusters elsewhere on its body so that it can tilt to properly mate with a station. In a three-dimensional environment such as space, this is a crucial form of movement. So - it could be that it slowed itself down via these hypothetical thrusters (or even jumped into the atmosphere so it doesn't have to fall as far) or was just fitted with another series of the larger booster rockets before landing on Reach for the emergency pickup.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 11:56, 15 October 2011 (EDT)

After the boosters fell off in the final cutscene of [[The Pillar of Autumn (Halo: Reach level)]], the Autumn showed itself to be able to float much like a UNSC Frigate could. So perhaps to simplify it, rather than "never-before-seen thrusters", it can slow its descent using its "antigravity" (which I personally think is possibly an [http://halofanon.wikia.com/wiki/EHD_lifter_drive Electrohydrodynamic lifter] instead), but doing so to touch down with the ground is a crude landing akin to deflating a blimp to land on an island. Normal landing operation would probably be that it slows to several meters off the ground, then moves forward to connect to a dock, which then holds it in place while its "antigravity" is shut off. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 12:17, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
:Well isn't it ''in'' a dock of sorts? It looks like it's on a platform originally made for stripping down cruiser class vessels for scrap. Couldn't they be using that as a make-shift dock? [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 12:22, 15 October 2011 (EDT)

Exactly. It ''is'' a dock, so it landed there. I was referring to the landing at Installation 04, where there wouldn't be any dock for lightyears. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 12:43, 15 October 2011 (EDT)

@Courage never dies: As per your guess about the Boneyard Radio Conversation, there does not seem to be any supporting evidence to your claim. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsk_STNmCNs&hd=1].

@Tuckerscreator: No...no-one ever says that, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slk74yQBzBU&hd=1&t=3m46s].

Oh yeah, and guys, didn't you know?  Bungie said that Halo: Reach was perfect.  No canon-holes whatsoever :p.
:: Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  01:11, 16 October 2011 (EDT)

:::Sorry. I meant ''Breakpoint'', not ''Boneyard''. By the way, ''"Courage never dies"'' is just my signature. I'm Braidenvl. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 11:54, 16 October 2011 (EDT)
::::[http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=24278669&player=gunstalker43] I kinda understand what you're saying, but not really enough.  Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  13:48, 16 October 2011 (EDT)


I just checked Data Drop 6. It seems that even into the end of August much of the planet was left unaware of the invasion; much of the fleet was ordered to congregate into one spot. I presume Stanforth wanted to ensure that the defence fleet was in a good enough condition to fight back the Covenant whenever they went further than the intended trap area. While it appears at first that only those involved with the mission knew nothing, it is actually much more - the fleet was congregated and there was no message suggesting an invasion. I doubt Haverson could have disrupted the Autumn's comm. relay without being mentioned as a faulty system. Further, there are no proper reports from anywhere on the ground - meteorological sattelites were the only indicators of plasma bombardment, as the Covenant were too far away for their glassing activities to be seen past brief "fireworks". My guess is that, being an "emergency military dictatorship" (you try being a democracy under the military), the spread of communication was restricted by Stanforth to make sure that Keyes wouldn't turn hero and crash the Autumn into a ship and risk killing the SPARTANS.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 06:41, 22 October 2011 (EDT)

:Reading the data drop, I was under the impression Keyes knew. The whole point of the fleet being left out of the battle was so that they could lure in a ship of necessary class (A super carrier or assault carrier I believe). Ironically, they '''did''' with the [[Long  Night of Solace]], but the army sluffed up when they didn't tell anyone at Oni. So once Nobel team had nuked it, they had doomed Reach. If RED FLAG had been completed at that moment, the fleet they were holding back could have moved in sooner and saved the planet. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 10:04, 22 October 2011 (EDT)

::Perhaps Keyes was aware of it, but was too focused on RED FLAG to contradict orders. Regardless, ONI wanted the Autumn's crew and those of other vessels within the defence fleet to remain ignorant of the threat unless their assistance was necessary. I'd say that even if Keyes did know, ONI may not have counted on that, and moved the Autumn into the cluster of ignorant vessels to provide a convincing lie, anyway.- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 11:44, 22 October 2011 (EDT)

If you look in the back of Halo: The Fall of Reach, you can see that Keyes DID know what was going on.  I already knew this ever since the new editions came out, I just forgot to put that data in the articles, whoops. Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  23:02, 22 October 2011 (EDT)!

:I'm not so sure of that. Granted, I don't own the new Fall of Reach, but in these Data Drops they repeatedly state that their primary reason to keep the Fall secret is because they know that if Keyes found out, he would insist on defending Reach. Given as Keyes was previously shown to keep big secrets like the Spartan-II program, I don't think their judgement is wrong here, as there's going to be a point where a person's honor will crack, and the Fall is considerably bigger to try and hide from your crewmates. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 23:07, 22 October 2011 (EDT)

Well, it pretty clearly states in the revised version that he knew.  It says that... oh, to hell with copying!  Just pirate the revised version online! Vegerot goes RAWR!  [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]])  23:44, 22 October 2011 (EDT)!

====Sources====
{{Ref/Sources}}

===Notes===
<references group="note"/>
<references group="note"/>

== When exactly did the ''Pillar of Autumn'' dock? ==

I just read ''Halo: The Fall of Reach'' and I can't make the connection as to when the ''Pillar of Autumn'' could have canonically docked at the Aszod ship breaking yards... If someone has an explanation that would settle my confusion, it would be greatly appreciated. [[User:Iota Eta Pi|<span style="font-family:font; color:#B80000;">Ιι</span>]] [[User talk:Iota Eta Pi|<span style="font-family:font; color:#B80000;">Ηη</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Iota Eta Pi|<span style="font-family:font; color:#B80000;">Ππ</span>]] 17:45, 10 November 2011 (EST)

:The'' Autumn'' extracted John and Linda from ''Gamma Station'' at 0637; Keyes gave the order to leave the system at 0647. However, just before the cruiser jumped out-system, Halsey requested that the ''Autumn'' land at the Aszod ship-breaking yards, which were the only safe extraction point left on the Eposz continent. There, the crew would retrieve the fragment of Cortana that was being couriered by the remaining members of NOBLE Team. Carter, Emile, and B312 finally arrived at 1652 hours, though, unfortunately, they could not be evacuated along with Cortana's fragment. 

:To summarize: The ''Autumn'' went groundside around 0700 hours and finally left Reach around 1700 hours. Rather than leaving immediately as ''The Fall of Reach'' suggests, the vessel remained in drydock for roughly ten hours. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 18:23, 10 November 2011 (EST)

::Thank both of you. [[User:Iota Eta Pi|<span style="font-family:font; color:#B80000;">Ιι</span>]] [[User talk:Iota Eta Pi|<span style="font-family:font; color:#B80000;">Ηη</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Iota Eta Pi|<span style="font-family:font; color:#B80000;">Ππ</span>]] 20:17, 10 November 2011 (EST)

== Rename article? ==
Shouldn't this article be renamed "Battle of Reach"? It's more proper and keeps the format that all the other battles are named as. Using the word "fall" is rather informal and has no reason for it; we don't call the Battle of Harvest "Fall of Harvest", or the Battle of Arcadia "Fall of Arcadia". Sona 03:59, 6 May 2013 (EDT)

Makes sense to me, but then again it's commonly reffered to as the Fall in the books and games. I think I'll probably support this, though I'm not sure everyone will. Halo 4 is peaking at 20k players, I find this hilarious. '''This is''' [[User:CraZboy557|<span style="color:orange; font-family: Gill Sans Ultra Bold; font-size: 105%;">'''craZboy557'''</span>]], '''signing off.''' 09:04, 6 May 2013 (EDT)


:While “Battle” would make it consistent and fit into format, it's referred to as “the fall” universally. As CraZboy stated, there’s references of the falling throughout various media. 

*Halo: The Fall of Reach, Halo: Fall of Reach (comic),“Halo: Reach ...... falls 2010" (video game tagline)
*Halsey: "Do you? Mankind is outmatched. When Reach falls - and it will fall - our annihilation is all but certain. (Halo: Reach)
*Kelly: “We've lost. Reach is going to fall.” (Halo: First Strike)


:Calling it the fall of reach captivates the uniqueness of the battle and the importance of the planet itself. Reach was special to humanity as it was their most heavily fortified world. It wasn't just another battle, it was “The Fall of Reach!”  Quite possibly the most important event central to the Halo mythos. I say let the name be. [[User:Forgotten Helljumper|Forgotten Helljumper]] ([[User talk:Forgotten Helljumper|talk]]) 10:43, 6 May 2013 (EDT)
::Helljumper highlighted the point perfectly. As it is almost universally called the Fall of Reach, we should use that name, since it is the most commonly used name in canon. No need to confuse readers with the naming.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 10:59, 6 May 2013 (EDT)

== Covenants aware of the location of Reach prior to Stanforth fleet arrival ==

“However, the location of Reach itself was already known to the Covenant; a Forerunner artifact that the Covenant had recovered from Sigma Octanus IV indicated that Reach held another artifact, proving Parangosky's and Stanforth's suspicions correct.” (Juste before '''Pre-invasion'' section)

Where did that come from ?  [[Special:Contributions/81.53.137.51|81.53.137.51]] 10:31, 29 December 2013 (EST)

== Fleet Sizes ==

Since we only have Hood's hyperbole and the one statement I think we should revert the fleet size to 315.  The Fleet of Particular Justice had 60 vessels according to Locke.  If the fleet of particular justice alone did have 315 warships then they wouldn't have been so surprised when they were all at Reach. [[User:Lord &#39;Themee|Lord &#39;Themee]] ([[User talk:Lord &#39;Themee|talk]]) 02:39, 17 November 2014 (EST)

Why is the number set at 315 ships and not 315+? There were three fleets of ships that attacked Reach: 1) the cloaked supercarrier and a small group of heavy corvettes; 2) the fleet of battlecruisers that arrived just after the supercarrier was destroyed (with maybe a dozen or so ships judging from Halo Reach's cutscene); 3) and lastly Thel Vadamee's fleet of 315 ships.

To be fair it's extremely unclear what happened to the second fleet that arrived just after the Supercarrier was destroyed. According to Auntie Dot, Reach's defense fleet already had been wiped out (or rendered incapable of fighting the supercarrier) before the supercarrier was destroyed (with the strange exception of the orbital defense platforms I guess, but you could argue that they were mostly only on one part of the planet). So either the "60% of the UNSC fleet" that came to reinforce Reach destroyed these ships and it was never mentioned or the Covenant fleet hid or retreated before the UNSC fleet arrived. According to Auntie Dot, the UNSC fleet should have started arriving the day after the supercarrier was destroyed (over two weeks before Thel's fleet arrived at Reach).

Anyway, what happened to that fleet is unclear, but it should still be listed that there not only the 315 ships from Thel's fleet but also 7+ ships from the first invasion (1 supercarrier and at least 6 corvettes), and 13+ ships from the fleet that arrived after the supercarrier's destruction (3 assault carriers and at least 10 battlecruisers).

335+, not 315

== Spartn 3 deaths ==

For the number of Spartan 3's that died on Reach thier were quite a few on level Lone Wolf. Has anyone counted how many their where? [[User:Primordial|Primordial]] ([[User talk:Primordial|talk]]) 13:10, 2 January 2017 (EST)


[[Thirteen dead Spartans]], it is on the Battle of Aszod page. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 14:00, 2 January 2017 (EST)

== I'm very confused ==

How is the Fall of Reach a decisive victory for the Covenant as since both sides suffer heavy casualties wouldn't it be a pyrhhic victory for the Covenant as its a victory with soooo many losses it's not enough worth it? --[[User:The Ultimate Pie|The Ultimate Pie]] ([[User talk:The Ultimate Pie|talk]]) 19:34, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

Because they destroyed Reach, Humanities primary fortress world and crippled their ship production. That is a decisive victory. A pyrrhic victory is this 

pyr·rhic1
ˈpirik/Submit
adjective
(of a victory) won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.

[[User:AlertFiend|AlertFiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 19:54, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

:AlertFiend is right. Given the size of the Covenant military, a hundred or so ships and several thousand personnel was a small price to pay for glassing the second most important world in human space. They could have taken similar losses in the future (such as at Earth) if necessary. However, if they had suffered the same casualties while attacking a relatively unimportant target such as Arcadia, that would have been a Pyrrhic victory; the cost would have outweighed the results. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 08:51, 15 September 2017 (EDT)