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| == Why didn't the Covenant glass Reach much sooner? == | | == Merge with "Raid of Reach" == |
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| I understand that the Covenant sent a small battlegroup lead by a cloaked Assault Carrier to Reach, in order to do things such as secure the information at the Visegrad Relay and Sword Base, but why wait so long until bringing the rest of the fleet to start glassing? Surely the Covenant could just glass everything in sight other than the 'data-retrieval areas' like Sword Base, instead of using things like Corvettes to attack New Alexandria? Is the idea that the Covenant would be putting themselves in danger to glass straight away because surface-level defenses (of which I can't think of many), orbital defenses and the UNSC fleet could still destroy them? Do the Covenant really have to wipe out every single UNSC defense before glassing? I'm confused... [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 10:36, 9 December 2010 (EST)
| | {{Main|Halopedia:Requests for Merger/Raid of Reach - March 2010}} |
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| :I assume that they do so for safety. We see the cruisers over New Alexandria get pretty close, and even in Halo 3 the ships are right above the target, not in orbit - presumably, if there were still an organised UNSC force down there they might be able to organise a MAC strike, rockets, missiles, artillery, etc, and hit the cruiser while it's vulnerable. The Covenant can probably spare the ships, but the future Arbiter is playing it smart, conserving his assets until he can use them. | | -- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 15:41, July 30, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :The actual invasion is because, as always, the Covenant have trouble telling humans apart from Forerunner artefacts on their Luminaries, and assume that there must be at least some artefacts in human population centres. They go in to get them, find nothing but terrified humans, assume they've been destroyed and start killing the "heretics". There's also the fact that they might not know just how extensive the Forerunner presence on the planet it - there's the Sword Base ruins, and those under Castle Base, but how much more is there? Naturally the Covenant would want to be ''dead'' sure, before risking hitting holy relics. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 15:33, 9 December 2010 (EST)
| | == Dates retconned? == |
| ::I always assumed that they were also trying to find human star charts, or the Elites simply wanted to give the Minors a chance to get some kills and up themselves to Major. -- [[User talk:SFH|SFH]] 17:54, 9 December 2010 (EST)
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| So essentially the game consists of you fighting an advance Covenant force trying to find Forerunner relics (did the Zealot Elites actually take any valuable information from the Visegrad relay?), then scouting out this advance force, fighting this force alongside a large UNSC force ([[Battle of Viery]]), uncovering the cloaked Assault Carrier, which then proceeds to destroy UNSC vessels. Then you blow up the Assault Carrier, but at this point the Covenant send a huge fleet in. It is at this point I am confused - in the level [[Exodus]], why do the Covenant go through such trouble with sending in troops, setting up comm jammers, and sending in Banshees, Phantoms and Corvettes? Why don't they just start glassing straight away? Regardless, then the game consists of the glassing starting for real, doubled with the defense of Halsey in Sword Base in order to secure the 'package' and bringing it to the Pillar of Autumn before the whole damn world is glassed. That mostly makes sense... is the point that in levels like [[Exodus]] the Covenant is waiting for 'artifacts' to be found or not found, or that they are fighting in the skies, destroying all orbital defenses and UNSC forces that threaten them so they can start glassing proper without the risk of being shot down (as the level Pillar of Autumn shows, a single MAC round can take down a Covenant ship while glassing). [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 04:59, 10 December 2010 (EST)
| | It seems we have a new, quite large retcon in our hands. According to the [[:File:ONI Plaque Right.jpg|ONI Memorial]] in ''ODST'', the dates for the battle are radically different from what we're used to. Now, that could be chalked up to error or the fact the plaque is just an easter egg, but now, we have new evidence supporting the change: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFJYLCGiGE the newest live action trailer] shows the date "July 23rd 2552", which wouldn't make any sense in the original context (that is, if the battle began on August 30th). Considering how the date for the beginning of the battle was July 25th in the ONI plaque, the 23rd is probably the day before the invasion. That still leaves one day in between, but that may be the when the Covenant "advance force" arrived and the actual, full-on invasion hadn't yet began. |
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| :I think it may be a mix of both waiting for new artifact discoveries and clearing before glassing. As technologically advanced as the Covenant may seem, they are still vulnerable to counter-ops, especially when there are "demons" nearby. The infantry in Exodus were probably used to clear out UNSC ground forces who are capable of fighting back. Comm jammers, of course, were there to prevent the UNSC ground forces from forming a proper counter-op that included other elements of their forces (i.e. the Air Force). From the Covenants' perspective, who knows what surface-to-air weapons the UNSC has lying in wait hidden in their grand cities? The proper thing would be to have a thorough scavenge with ground forces before leaving your ships open to hiding hostiles. I hope it's clear what I'm trying to say because I'm writing this late at night.--[[User:Ender the Xenocide|<font color="Green">Ender the Xenocide]]</font> 05:47, 10 December 2010 (EST)
| | The new version is also supported by the note in the game's packaging, read by Brian Jarrard in the Reach unpacking video. "You are in possession of the most complete and accurate account that anyone has been able to assemble from the SPECWAR/GroupTHREE/Noble actions during the '''final weeks before the Covenant glassed Reach'''." |
| ::Makes sense. At that point, the Covenant still didn't know much about the humans, and so it would be a bad idea to rush in and start glassing. Another quick question I had - it really never made Cortana's role very clear. It appears only 'part' of her was with Halsey, so she could get the Forerunner information... What was the Forerunner information? Was it information about [[Installation 04]] that caused Cortana's 'random jump' into Slipspace per the [[Cole Protocol]] actually be a directed one there? So essentially the Forerunner complex under Sword Base was actually behind the discovery which lead Master Chief to the ring and actually saved humanity? [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 07:42, 10 December 2010 (EST) EDIT: this can't be the case, since Cortana's page states "However, Cortana secretly inserted coordinates translated from symbols on a rock that Master Chief discovered on Sigma Octanus IV, thinking that they were of some significance to the Covenant." So what was the purpose of this Forerunner information? Was it even helpful? [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 07:44, 10 December 2010 (EST)
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| :Wait, are you talking about the Forerunner information from Sigma Octanus IV or from the artifact under Sword Base?--[[User:Ender the Xenocide|<font color="Green">Ender the Xenocide]]</font> 07:51, 10 December 2010 (EST)
| | "Final weeks" wouldn't make a whole lot of sense were the game follow the original story, as most of the planet was glassed the day it was invaded. It seems they changed it to allow for a longer campaign (I saw this coming, really; if it were like the original, the campaign would've lasted for only a couple of hours). In light of this obvious retcon, should we change the page accordingly? --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 10:39, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
| ::My question is the purpose of the artifact under Sword Base. Why was it so important Cortana gain its information? It can't be that the information that it gave directed Cortana to jump to the Halo ring, because that was information from Sigma Octanus IV... So what relevance does it have to the game? It seems a bit random that you'd spend so long defending and transporting a discovery that has no real implications for the what is to come (the jump to Installation 04)... [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 08:15, 10 December 2010 (EST)
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| :::My interpretation is that the artifact under Sword Base helped Cortana decrypt the navigational information from the previously-indecipherable Sigma Octanus artifact. Or the other way around. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 08:20, 10 December 2010 (EST) | | :Hm, it seems that way alright. However, that would be a very large retcon indeed; the dates of ''Halo: Combat Evolved'', ''Halo: First Strike'', and indeed most of the dates in ''The Fall of Reach'', including the Battle of Sigma Octanus IV and the entire time line of the Fall of Reach, are all dependent on when the Fall of Reach took place. For instance, the Battle of Sigma Octanus IV took place on July 17th-18th, which would place it a mere five days before the Fall of Reach if this is indeed a retcon; which would make little sense considering the time it would take the ''Iroquois'' to make it back to Reach, and the subsequent events such as the recalling of the Spartans and so on. This would also apply to the Battle of Installation 04; where it is explicitly stated that it took three weeks for the ''Autumn'' to get to Halo, and that the battle was in late September. And while I won't go into ''First Strike'', I'm sure you know the magnitude of inconsistencies that would arise there, with the Slipspace time anomaly and all. So, my point is, that we should not jump to the conclusion of a date retcon until we are absolutely sure that this is the case; i.e. when ''Reach'' comes out. - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="red"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Talk'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Halo-343|<font color="orange"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Contribs'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Editcount/Halo-343|<font color="green"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Edits'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] 11:09, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| == Halo: Reach - retcon or actually consistent? ==
| | ::Yep, I'm aware of this - However, it's possible that in this new timeline, the invasion was more gradual (somewhat akin to the Battle of Earth), with smaller battle groups arriving over the span of a month. The final fleet that overwhelmed and glassed Reach would arrive on August 30th like it did before. From then on, the events would transpire much like they did in FS. That's my guess anyways. The events in The Fall of Reach may have happened on the dates they did in the book, including the ''Iroquois'' arriving at Reach and John being debriefed, and later receiving his armor, only with the battle going on ''all that time''. The PoA would jump away on the last day of the battle (August 30th), when the actual glassing fleet arrived and the last of the UNSC's defenses were destroyed. |
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| As I'm reading Halo: The Fall of Reach right now, it seems near-impossible that the 'pre-battle' (the first encounter with the Elite strike team at the Visegrad Relay all the way to the arrival of the second Covenant fleet, where the 'fall of Reach' in the novel begins) that was shown in Halo: Reach is actually plausible. How would a massive Covenant attack force, leading to huge ground battles (the [[Battle of Viery]] and the [[Siege of New Alexandria]]) and space battles ([[Operation: UPPER CUT]] and all warfare until the second fleet arrived) just be hid from the rest of the galaxy? How would the Remote Scanning Outpost [[Fermion]]'s crew be so surprised when it was apparent that a Covenant fleet was incoming (in the book, their surprise it clearly from the fact there IS a Covenant fleet, not ANOTHER)? Why would the Pillar of Autumn and other ships near the planet not have instantly been notified?
| | ::That still leaves a lot of inconsistencies with the book, including the Spartans' mission to capture the Prophet: why would they be sent away when they would all be needed on Reach more than ever? Although it could be understood as an act of desperation: they already know Reach is going to fall, and they send the Spartans to take the fight to the Covenant instead of sacrificing them in a vain effort to defend Reach. Still, that doesn't explain why the PoA turns back and the Spartans are deployed to defend the generators, but it seems to be the only way to make any sense out of it. But I agree that we should keep it the way it is until we get more information and a solid confirmation on the retcon. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 11:33, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| If this is actually plausible, there must be a huge flaw in the UNSC chain of command. How can the UNSC army, marines, navy, ONI, and even high command (all present and active in the game) all be involved in this huge battle, while the second Covenant fleet arriving is such a huge shock?
| | :::The first paragraph of your comment reflects what I thought of the retconned dates. ''*slashes own comment*'' |
| | :::Perhaps capturing a Prophet hostage would buy the UNSC some time as to delaying the inevitable fall of Reach? Like a bargaining chip, perhaps? It makes sense, seeing that it caused quite an uproar when John killed Regret on Delta Halo. Perhaps Reach holds more secret than what we know so far? So many mysteries.... - <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 18:40, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| Another very inconsistent piece of canon is the Halo: Reach announcement trailer. This Halopedia page shows that the events of the trailer take place AFTER the level 'The Package', but by then Kat is dead - yet she appears in the trailer? In fact, at this point Noble Team isn't ready for combat at all (Carter says in the trailer "This is Sierra Two-Five-Nine. You've got Spartans on the ground, sir. We're not going anywhere."), but instead Emile, Carter and Noble-6 are busy trying to reach the ship-breaking facility where the Pillar of Autumn is docked at, and Jun is escorting Halsey to CASTLE base (where she is operating in the novel, so this is consistent). A more obvious point is that the dialogue within the Fermion states that pings are occurring below the Orbital Defense Grid (Covenant ships deploying dropships to land on Reach), and Reach Station Gamma replies this is impossible, but why would seem to be impossible (be such a big shock), since (1) it has already happened a fair few times since the invasion of Reach has started (e.g. by the Covenant Supercarrier 'Long Night of Solace') and (2) this event takes place in the novel long after the UNSC fleet deploys at [[Rally Point Zulu]] and starts fighting the incoming second Covenant fleet (so it's not like the Covenant suddenly arrived from Slipspace to below the Orbital Defense Grid, to the surprise of all UNSC forces - the second fleet firstly arrived outside the Orbital Defense Grid, attacking ships and Orbital Defense Platforms, and then some ships made precise jumps within the grid to deploy dropships).
| | :I'm not sure it's a retcon. It seems to me that the planet the Iroquious (and thus the probe) went to just happened to be one the Covenant already knew about. Besides, all we know of the battle is that the components of the Epsilon Eridani fleet defending Reach were eliminated within (I think) 4-6 hours on 30 August. They gradually begin to bombard the planet, finishing (with the exception of Menachite mountain) some time before 15/16 September (the former or the latter being the day the Ascendant Justice reached Reach - the latter being the "revised calendar date" some time after rescuing Halsey, where they work out the correct date). From what I recall, they began glassing from the poles, leaving up to eight days of fighting with surviving UNSC groundforces. I don't remember much about the novel, but I'm sure the PoA simply picked up an emergency transmission addressed to all ships - if you were being attacked, would you personally message each ship individually?-- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 12:04, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| Moreover, in the novel, when dropships are sent to Reach from the Covenant fleet, Master Chief notes that the 'invasion of Reach has started'. Of course this is untrue. These would by no means be the first dropships to go to Reach. This can be seen as Master Chief being unaware that most of the events of Halo: Reach have occurred, but once again it doesn't feel right. The game Halo: Reach should have stated somehow that the news of the invasion was strangely withheld from huge amounts of UNSC personnel (though I'm sure people on Reach would have been able to contact people on other planets, thus rendering this idea very improbable). [[User talk:AlexB1001|AlexB1001]] 06:34, 26 December 2010 (EST)
| | ::Uh, I'm not sure you're fully aware of what we're discussing. We're talking about ''Reach'' potentially retconning August 30th to July 23rd, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="red"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Talk'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Halo-343|<font color="orange"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Contribs'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Editcount/Halo-343|<font color="green"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Edits'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] 12:10, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :Sorry for the blunt frankness, but yes, it's a retcon. Bungie thought the actual battle of Reach from the novel wasn't epic enough, so they changed it to a more drawn out invasion instead of a short but massive space and ground battle. | | :::It's probably an error. I was saying that if this isn't an error, then the probe attached to the Iroqious obviously wasn't the first to find Reach - perhaps the Skirmishers were sent ahead to look for information regarding other worlds (ie. Earth) before the humans got a chance to wipe the systems. Yeah - it probably meant August instead of July, though it wouldn't mess with the timeline if it was July.-- 12:37, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| | ::::No they said they were going to do something that would quote "take issues with" [http://www.next-gen.biz/features/halo-reach-tales-of-the-fall here] but in all honestly they've truly screwed the canon up, how the hell does the events in fall of reach still happen if the dates are all wrong. They've essentially taken all the books and flung them out the door. Not just in terms of the events of the game but the events of the books themselves. It's hilarious when you read the last part. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 16:11, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| Why would Ct. Keyes doom 20+ Spartans on a ride in a pelican if he had to land anyway? how did they land the POA? why was red team defending generators when the planet had begun being glassed two weeks before that and apperently they weren't useful in this case because Jorge shouldn't of died? Why was Dr. Halsey so sure of Noble Team when she should and could of relied on her Spartans since they should of been on the planet? and lastly does anyone know the new or actual date Master Chief got his Mark V armor since the old date he got it the covenant were glassing the planet and fighting the UNSC ALL over the Planet?06:25, 22 January 2011 (EST)Carter06:25, 22 January 2011 (EST)
| | :Remember when ODST and Halo Wars trailers were released. Many people looked at the limited content and came to the conclusion that they were non-canon. It turned out that as they obviously hadn't played the game, they couldn't see that it really was canon (Flood in Halo Wars; Regret not destroying New Mombasa, etc.). For all we know, Winter Contingency actually takes place on 23 July, while the rest is on 30-31 August.-- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 17:35, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| Plus since the unsc send around 60% of it fleet in the system and nothing as been said about what happen to them. Im also certain that 152 ships doesnt represent the said 60%. Once again It look like that in the game the fleet of particular justice arrive just after the destruction of the LNoS has implied by Holland "It the whole damm covenant fleet." To me the event of august 30th have been retconned [[User:Chief frank 001|<font color="LimeGreen">C</font>]][[User talk:Chief frank 001|<font color="RoyalBlue">F</font>]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Chief frank 001|<font color="Salmon">0</font>]]UoH/A Company|<font color="Gold">0</font>]][[Special:Editcount/Chief frank 001|<font color="GreenYellow">1</font>]]</sup> 11:10, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
| | :::''"For all we know, Winter Contingency actually takes place on 23 July, while the rest is on 30-31 August."'' That makes no sense. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 18:22, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :Not necessarily. That could just be another fleet of a dozen ships to reinforce whatever is left of the scout after discovering the LNoS's destruction. Reinforcement ships were on their way to stop the Covenant and would arrive shortly after the Covenant fleet's. Furthermore we should take into consideration that the Covenant were attacking other planets, too, making the Reach attack force less than the number of Covenant ships in-system. The UNSC was still holding back well into August- it could be that Particular Justice arrived much later to take advantage of the already-weakened UNSC fleet. Answering other questions, John did not receive MJOLNIR armour in August 2552; he was undergoing improvements to his neural interface to allow Cortana into it. Mark V was already issued. Red team was taken out of RED FLAG to defend the ODGs-even if they were called right before the Autumn went groundside they'd still need a dropship.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 12:52, 2 August 2011 (EDT) | | ::::<s>I thought Jugus has already pointed out the obvious approach taken by Bungie to resolve this issue; they had stated that the Fall of Reach occurred earlier than what we already know in Halo 3: ODST through the ONI Memorials. Perhaps those who read the novel took the event too seriously... Maybe the Fall of Reach did occur earlier on in early August after the Iriquois returned to Reach to deliver its report of Octanus. Somewhere during the return, several Covenant ships traced and attacked the planet (which is when the game comes in. It also explains why there weren't many "lightshows" in the Campaign trailer over Reach) but the UNSC on Reach manage to repel the early Covenant forces until they encountered the 700 Covenant ships (which is covered in the novel). Am I wrong? - <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 18:33, August 18, 2010 (UTC)</s> |
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| I was thinking something else. In Halo: The Fall of Reach, in the very back of the book when Jacob is saying that his men don't know what's going on down there, and if I knew that I was one trip away from seeing Miranda again, etc. I was under the impression that Keyes knew about what was going on at Reach already, and that everybody else '''didn't''' know what was happening. So I guess most of the higher-ups knew about the invasion when it began. But they just tried to keep it on the down-low for some reason (maybe morality reasons, HighCom wanted to keep the situation as under-control as possible before blowing the horn. But that's still a really crappy reason). So the whole surprise wasn't that the Covenant were on Reach. The surprise was, "OMG, 700 fucking Covenant ships just jumped from Slipspace." After the Long Night of Solace was destroyed. But then that brings up something annoying. 1st of all. If HighCom didn't keep it on the down-low, it was possible that the UNSC may have had more time to prepare against the main assault. Also, if we say that the 700 ships was the "main attack" at the Fall of Reach, then should we update the article to put everything before that as events leading up to the Fall of Reach? [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 15:38, 2 August 2011 (EDT)!
| | :::::The way I see it, in the new timeline, the actual battle for Reach itself takes place between July 25 and August 29. At first, the Covenant forces come in with smaller groups. On August 30, things happen pretty much like in the novel, except that the Covenant are already on Reach, they just come in with a bigger force, wipe the rest of the UNSC resistance out and glass Reach. The PoA escapes and Red Team goes underground. As for the events that happen in between, like John being debriefed at Camp Hathcock, the briefing for the mission to capture the Prophet in the auditorium and John receiving his Mark V armor, we'll just have to assume the battle for Reach is taking place all that time. Unless, of course, the UNSC managed to destroy the initial Covenant force and it took some time for them to mobilize another one. In that case, there would be a gap in the fighting much like the one that was originally assumed to be between the "first" and "second" battles of Earth. |
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| :: Isn't it possible that the crystal allowed for the time difference seen in tFoR and Halo: Reach? To me, that seems likely, much more so than the current canon stiching done in the artcile. | | :::::Judging by the dates shown in the memorial, I'm still fairly certain Halo: Reach will end on August 30 and the time anomaly won't be included. The time anomaly doesn't even affect anything else than the people at Installation 04, causing them to go back in time a couple of weeks when they return to Reach. Events before that shouldn't be affected by the crystal. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 18:45, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| Also, the location of the PoA in Reach is not an issue, there's a timeframe when john is in cyro where it could have landed. http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9315/signxb.jpg 11:17, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
| | ::::::Exactly how I view it.- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 18:49, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| == Hurricane?? ==
| | :::::::So if the Covenant are already on Reach by August 30th explain how NOBODY KNOWS ABOUT IT. It just makes no sense, it's the most moronic thing you could ever come up with in a story, it is loony-toons level ridiculousness. If the Covenant invaded reach on July 25th it would been known throughout the military, no one would be that stupid enough to risk millions of lives on "we need to keep this a secret and build up our military resources". They would have already evacuated the entire planet by that point and nobody would have been that surprised by the real assault by the Covenant as they were in FoR. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 19:00, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| Where is it said that ther is a hurricane, guys?
| | ::::::::The answer is quite simple: the magic powers of retcon. Bungie decided to make the battle longer, so the idea that the invasion happened on August 30th isn't true anymore. According to the new timeline, everyone obviously knows that the Covenant are on Reach by Aug 30 since the battle has been raging for weeks; they're not surprised, except maybe about the massive size of the arriving Covenant fleet.--[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 19:07, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| Sign your posts!!! Did u not play reach? You see the hurricane during the cutscene when the sabre is launching during the level long night of solace!!![[#@lof@n1234]]-Forgive My English 11:23, 11 March 2011 (EST)
| | :::::::Look - we know very little about the campaign and the game's plot. What we do know is that Halo: Reach takes place over a longer timeline than just 30 August, and that an advanced invasion force is there days before the Fleet of Particular Justice arrives (personally I think it was a coincidence that Iroqious led them to Reach, if the advanced force was already there). Just wait for the game to come out and we'll understand. We thought that all of Halo Wars would be on Harvest and that there was a second battle of Mombassa in which John participated in. Just wait for more information to come out before turning this into another "bungie fucked up the timeline" discussion.-- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 19:06, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| == UNSC victory? Uhh No. ==
| | :::::::Also, it's obvious that it was kept secret - you're the one who's being moronic. Otherwise, nothing would happen on 25 July, let alone 23. -- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 19:06, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
| Why the heck does it say the battle was partly a UNSC victory. It wasn't? While the information in the outcomes section should stay, it should not be under the subheaded declaring a partial UNSC victory. <font color="black">Something<b>Different</b></font> 02:05, 15 April 2011 (EDT)
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| Maybe, because they managed to escape with the pillar of autumn intact and score a crushing victory on 04 which would turn the tide in the human-covenant war in the unsc's favour? I dunno :) --[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 17:10, 5 August 2011 (EDT)
| | ::::::::Let's keep it civil...- <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:Subtank|<font color="gold"><font color="#FF4F00">5</font>əb<font color="#FF4F00">'7</font>aŋk</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Subtank|<font color="#FF4F00">7alk</font>]])</sup></font> 19:10, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :I wouldn't call the Autumn escaping a success, though it's probably as debatable as the Allied 'victory' in the Battle of France. Perhaps we should decide on when and when not to call an outcome a 'victory' .-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 17:36, 5 August 2011 (EDT) | | :::::::::It just shows me that they are not serious about Halo canon anymore. You don't establish a story and stand by it for 10 years and then at the last second erase what you've stood by. That's just contradicting yourself and it makes you (bungie) look very stupid. That right there is not how you create a universe or tell a good story. What's even more depressing are the people who are willing to stand by this disgraceful move by bungie and go so far as to insult others because of it. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 19:18, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| Id class it as a minor victory myself, it was crucial that they escaped as they as i said before did go on to score a crushing decisive victory on alpha halo which fractured the covie leadership. --[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 17:49, 5 August 2011 (EDT)
| | ::::::::::Just pointing out, Bungie didn't write ''The Fall of Reach''. When it comes down to it, Bungie created Halo. While I respect Eric Nylund and still think he's the best Halo writer, it's Bungie's story. I don't like retcons, but complaining about it's not going to help either. And knowing Bungie, they don't just do things like this for no reason. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 19:23, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| It's been changed to a Covenant victory. In the outcome section though, it does state state everything that happened. Honestly though, the ''Pillar of Autumn'' escaping was way more important than the fleet being lost and Reach being glassed. Why? Well, the ''Pillar'' escaping prevented the entire galaxy from being devoid of life. And the Chief's actions there also prevented the flood from escaping and taking over every being in the world. Soooo... yeah. I'd much rather Reach be lost. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 19:22, 5 August 2011 (EDT) | | ::::::::To Forerunner - it was mentioned in one of the campaign previews that the full-on invasion begins just after Winter Contingency, as the UNSC starts reporting Covenant activity all over the planet through radio. So, keeping the invasion secret from July 23 (or 25) till August 30 isn't really possible. It's a retcon; we'll just have to live with it. On a related note, I'm guessing this hasn't been explained at all in the ''Fall of Reach'' reissue? That would've been the perfect chance to change the events of the book when they're retconning it anyways; from what I've heard, they hardly changed it at all. Oh well. An opportunity missed. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 19:23, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :It's insignificant if looking at the battle, solely - Cortana didn't know where they were going and there was no battle plan beyond just running away. Hitler was an insignificant participant in the Battle of Passchendaele and his injury, although notable, is irrelevant to Germany's defeat. The Autumn leaving is unnecessary as a 'UNSC victory' as it was of little relevance to the battle.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 20:56, 5 August 2011 (EDT) | | :::::::I'm sure they've got a good reason, otherwise they wouldn't bother to change it. My question would be then, for now, should this article hold the "newer" information, or the old ''Fall of Reach'' date?[[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator''''</span>]] 19:25, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| ::I wasn't saying it was significant to the battle. However, it was significant to the war as a whole. So yes, the UNSC lost. I'm not debating that. I'm actually agreeing with what is already written. Without a doubt, it is worth noting in the outcome section. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 21:00, 5 August 2011 (EDT) | | ::::::::I just think its a dishonor to not only the incredible work of Eric Nylund who is a fictional genius in his own right, but it is a dishonor to all of us who stood by Halo. We are not entitled to anything, but we support halo because of its great fiction, gameplay and multiplayer. When all we ask for is a product that continues that foundation, and what we get is a game that on the principle founding of halo (telling a good story) is ignored by throwing out all the work that Nylund, Brannon Boren and Eric S. Trautmann help bungie create is just dishonorable. I believe, or try to believe in honoring people doing incredible work, but when bungie clearly ignores that for the sake of creating what they, and only they want, It just burns my soul. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 19:35, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :::I agree, it's a Passchendaele Hitler. It's worthless if the outcome is summarised (eg. The outcome field of the Infobox) but is notable in a more in-depth analysis.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 21:08, 5 August 2011 (EDT) | | ::::::They're not ignoring Nylund, just adjusting. If they were ignoring Nylund, then they wouldn't have collaborated him him to create [[Dr. Halsey's personal journal|this.]] Changes happen, remember when Miranda Keyes's actress was changed? Best not to get too attached to it, [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks changes] happen, and who better to change it than Bungie?[[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator''''</span>]] 19:52, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| I see what you mean.. --[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 07:38, 6 August 2011 (EDT) | | :While I acknowledge all the points made, I just can't see it being that there was fighting on Reach weeks before August 30th. Yes, Bungie have retconned before; all minor, and none that affect the overall story. But this is huge, it ''completely'' alters the story, and I just don't see Bungie doing that, it would be self-destructive to ''Halo'', and indeed hypocritical, seeing as Bungie have always stood by their creation, and altered it to a minimum. And so many problems arise from this; like why, as Durandal pointed out, '''practically no one knew that humanity's second most important planet was under Covenant attack for several weeks'''. ONI are good at covering up; hell, they managed to hide that humanity was on the verge of extinction right up until Earth was attacked, but there's no way they could have hidden a continuous battle on Reach from ''its own occupants and military defendants''. Again, none of us can know exactly what the story is regarding this inconsistency until the game comes out, but if Bungie wanted to make the battle last longer, they had no need to change the dates. A large portion of Reach was left unharmed after the orbital bombardment, and we've never explicitly known how big the portion was; they could have made it as large as they wanted to have a big enough selection of locales to play in, and used all the time from August 30th until September 14th, to set ''Reach''. I can accept an advance invasion force of a day at the most, but as I have said, there's no need for them to change it to weeks. - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="red"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Talk'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Halo-343|<font color="orange"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Contribs'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Editcount/Halo-343|<font color="green"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Edits'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] 20:24, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| ''Phil said: "Well, the ''Pillar'' escaping prevented the entire galaxy from being devoid of life. And the Chief's actions there also prevented the flood from escaping and taking over every being in the world. Soooo... yeah. I'd much rather Reach be lost."''
| | Well, now we know at least that [[Noble Actual]] takes place on July 24th, as per [http://gamersyde.com/stream_halo_reach_gc_presentation_part_1-16673_en.html this]. Winter Contingency presumably takes place later that day, unless it takes almost a day for them to reach Visegrad, which I doubt. There's always the possibility that this is only the advance force and the actual battle won't begin in a long while, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 12:21, August 19, 2010 (UTC) |
| Soooo, no. If the Pillar of Autumn didn't jump to Halo, then the Covenant wouldn't have found it... So no, your point holds no weight. In fact, if the Covenant didn't attack Reach, there is a chance that Cortana and the Office of Naval Intelligence may have discovered the data in the rock at Sigma Octanas and have been able to jump to Installation 04 without the Covenant following them (all they needed to do was take a second look at the rock, as that was all Cortana needed to do). Which would have given them time to digest and take samples of all the data and technology at Installation 04, arguably jumping humanity forward more than finding the Prothean cache on Mars. I don't know man, but it keeps me up at night. [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 21:27, 6 August 2011 (EDT)
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| Dont keep saying that Vegerot. --[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 04:59, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
| | :Yeah, I just saw that too. I'm groping for straws here, but the only redeeming possibility I can think of, is that the next mission, or maybe the one after that takes place on August 30th a few weeks later; the advance invasion force has been taken out, and the true invasion begins on the correct date, with the UNSC ready for them. Again, I don't know, but I really hope this isn't the gigantic retcon it seems to be. - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="red"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Talk'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Halo-343|<font color="orange"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Contribs'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Editcount/Halo-343|<font color="green"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Edits'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] 12:35, August 19, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :Firstly, a little OT, but as per CMSH, if you could make that part of your sig proper it would be helpful. At the moment, it just looks like you're trying to make it a catch phrase like "brooklyn rage". And being much less successful. Perhaps change the font, the size or the colour of it to differentiate it from the rest of your test? | | ::Agreed. It would be the single biggest retcon in the Halo universe, ever; it would basically de-canonize ''The Fall of Reach'''s chapters 24 through 37, plus require major changes in ''First Strike'' and possibly ''The Flood''. Not a good idea at all, considering how it wouldn't even be really necessary in order to tell a different story about the events of Reach. Let's just hope it'll be the way you said; that there's actually an over a month long gap between the comm relay mission and the actual invasion. Then again, that seems unlikely considering some hints in magazine coverage. Also, it would be difficult, not to mention unreasonable, to keep the presence of Covenant forces on Reach secret from most of the population for over a month. If an advance force really arrived that early, they would've had plenty of time to evacuate the planet. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 12:44, August 19, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :Secondly, it's clear that the Covenant were ''already'' at Halo when the Pillar of Autumn arrived, and in fact were just as surprised to find the Pillar of Autumn there as the Autumn crew were to find a Covenant armada holding orbital positions around a piece of astroengineering brilliance. Keyes and Cortana ''conjectured'' that the Covenant followed them through slipspace from Reach, and overshot because the Covenant have "always been faster". On the other hand, the Covenant Prophet in The Flood assumes that the Autumn itself followed them. Both sides think the other followed them. We still don't know precisely how the Covenant found Halo, though the Sigma Octanus artefact and information gained from the Reach ruins probably had something to do with it, since that was what led Cortana there. If the Autumn hadn't escaped Reach, the Covenant would have been unopposed on Halo as they meddled where they didn't belong, and unleashed things beyond their ability to contain. We know the future Arbiter was no slouch, and put containment and isolation measures in place to try to contain the Flood - and perhaps Guilty Spark would have reached out with an offer of tentative alliance with the meddlers to ensure the enforcement of containment protocol. But I don't think in the long term they would have been very successful, and neither would the Covenant ever think of destroying the Halo ring. If the Autumn hadn't carried the Chief to Halo, the Flood would have escaped eventually, dooming everyone. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 07:49, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
| | Uh...you guys do know this is a planet we're talking about? In space? Notice that the Covenant team is taking out the communications relay. The place of communications. Want to know why Reach couldn't call for help and no one outside found out about the invasion? The Covenant destroyed the communications. The planet would have been evacuated? Are you crazy? Do you understand how big a logistical operation moving 700 million people off an entire planet would be? Never mind the 350 Covenant ships in orbit. How do you even know that the population didn't know the Covenant had arrived? Maybe that gap was spent building up defenses and arming everyone. |
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| Look on the Main Page's talk page. I'm trying to figure out how to do that, I really am. <span style="color:##FF0000;">I don't know man, but it keeps me up at night.</span> [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 17:12, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
| | You guys are going rabidly crazy over what a "complete disrespect and betrayal" this is to Eric Nylund and go on about what you're "owed" from Bungie...I mean, I'm not saying I disliked Nylund or his books, but how good of a game could they have gotten just from following the books' Reach storyline? It would have been a disappointment. This is supposed to be the great climactic battle of the entire war...Nylund's portrayal of it was a letdown. The space battle rocked, don't get me wrong, but the ground actions were barely worth noting. Making the Reach invasion a month long lets it be Epic. I mean, how long have we been waiting for a gigantic battle between the humans and Covenant over an entire planet? Maybe everyone should be a bit grateful for this [[User talk:Flayer92|Flayer92]] 21:05, August 19, 2010 (UTC) |
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| | :They did it with Coral — and you've got a month to evacuate as many as you can, it can be done. The point you make however is completely off center, there is absolutely no logical reason to change the dates, you could have still done Reach with all this NOBLE team bullshit and not change anything. You also letting blind fanboynisum get the better of your judgement, the fact is that there was no war on Reach, their entire military fleet in orbit was destroyed in less then thirty-minutes, their ground forces stood no change against the Covenant, that's why there was no battle. There is no way they could last a month against a technologically advanced race of aliens, because all they have to do is get in their ships and bombard the planet from orbit and that the beauty of Nylund's work, '''He Makes Sense.''' [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 01:33, August 20, 2010 (UTC) |
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| Dont keep saying that Veregot --[[User talk:CookieMonstersayshello|CookieMonstersayshello]] 17:01, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
| | ::Not exactly; the battle wasn't that short and simplistic. During the main space battle, most of the UNSC ships were destroyed, with around fifty left, which split up to defend other areas of the planet. It is also known that the Covenant launched a massive ground invasion, a battle which still raged even after the planet was glassed. The remaining UNSC ships were slowly picked off by the Covenant until a handful of surviving were forced to limp away. The ground battle continued until September 14th, which is why this is a big deal; Bungie didn't have to retcon the battle back a whole month to make a longer battle, they had 15 days of when the ground battle canonically took place, they could have used all that time. So, while this seems to suck as of now, as we've said multiple times, let's just wait until the game comes out before making judgment and changing anything. - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="red"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Talk'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Halo-343|<font color="orange"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Contribs'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Editcount/Halo-343|<font color="green"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Edits'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] 10:09, August 20, 2010 (UTC) |
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| == July 25th == | | ==Theory on dates== |
| | I have a different thoery/idea that may or may not have been explained. In the first ''Remember Reach'' short, the soldiers and their superiors at HQ were only talking about Insurrectionists. We know that prior to Reach, their activity had been quite sporadic and their forces hadn't been seen in large numbers. However, what if the July 23rd, 2552 date refers to the beginning of a campaign on Reach in response to a resurgence in Insurrectionist activity in the inner colonies, whereas the August 30th date refers to the initial invasion of the Covenant's Fleet of Particular Justice? For those who've seen the footage from GamesCon 2010, you can see that the battle taking place in the background of the opening cinematic has been removed and the plot of it revolves around reports of Innie activity around a comm relay. |
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| According to H3:R, the Fall of Reach took place on the 25th, not the 24th of July, 2552.<sup>[[:File:ONI Plaque Right.jpg|H3:R]]</sup> This suggests that the battle officially began on the 25th, and that events that transpired on the 24th were those that lead to the battle. As such, I'm planning to update this article using content from H3:R and introduce a newer layout. Any comments before I do so? — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 09:49, 5 June 2011 (EDT)
| | Adding in the dates from the Memorial at ONI Alpha Site in ''Halo 3: ODST'', it could be surmised that the UNSC High Command didn't know of further activity from their forces on Reach, leading them to believe that the Covenant swept through the colony in just a single day. This is supported by the meeting in HIGHCOM Facility Bravo in Sydney in the first days of September where COL James Ackerson informs the Admiralty that Reach has been lost and no efforts should be undertaken to rescue survivors. In addition, ''First Strike'' proves that forces were still active on Reach in late September. Then again, this is just some batshit insane speculation. :) |
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| :I agree, with one exception: the invasion actually began on the 23rd. The Covenant made landfall on the night of July 23rd and shut down the Visegrád communications relay. However, the sabotage of the relay and Noble Team's investigation the following day were classified. The UNSC officially declared the invasion on July 25th. They claimed that it ended on August 30th, when the planet ultimately fell. In reality, pockets of resistance lasted until September 7th. So, the Fall of Reach actually lasted from July 23rd to September 7th. However, like you said, the dates given on the memorial plaque are the official dates given by the UNSC. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 17:11, 5 June 2011 (EDT)
| | Have a good one and please tell me if there's anything I missed or screwed up on! |
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| ::We'll treat those as events leading up to the Fall. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 17:30, 5 June 2011 (EDT)
| | Rawr, |
| | <br>{{User:CommanderTony/Sig|August 18th, 2010}} |
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| == Rewrite as per Data Drops == | | :That seems a reasonable theory. I guess none of us realized it never explicitly referred to the ''Covenant'' being the enemy on Reach for those dates. Right or wrong, it's more reassuring that it could simply be Microsoft screwing up rather than Bungie turning canon upside-down. - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="red"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Talk'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Halo-343|<font color="orange"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Contribs'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Editcount/Halo-343|<font color="green"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Edits'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] 20:49, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| I have spent quite a while looking into the data drops, and will summarise their meanings into dates, placing them with other known dates. | | :As a guess, it's as good as any. I guess it's pointless to debate this until the game is out since the discussion will go nowhere with the info we currently have - all we can do is speculate (not to say there's anything wrong with it). I'll just hold on to the hope they'll keep the retcons to a minimum and what I described above doesn't turn out to be true. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 20:57, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| *July 18: Stanforth notifies Parangosky of the Sigma Octanus IV artefact and suggests a possible link between it and the Reach artefacts.<ref>''Data Drop 2''</ref>
| | ::It's a good theory, but the problem just snaps back to the retcon. If they've really changed the dates, it opens a big wound for anyone to dig in and rip out vital things. If Reach didn't fall on August 30th then who's to say that whole section in Fall of Reach ever happened, because despite that Halsey is speaking with Auntie Dot, people get the impression she is talking to/about Cortana in some form. It just becomes so much more easier for somebody with enough persuasion to completely void the novel. And it extends into First Strike as well, because its already implied that Halsey knows NOBLE Team is a bunch of S-IIIs, it just begins a domino effect that potentially can destroy everything everyone has worked on for the past decade. So even though you point out Ackerson's discussion in First Strike anyone could, again potentially bring the point out that it never happened. |
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| *July 19: Parangosky notifies Stanforth of suspicious activity occuring in the Epsilon Eridani system, believing it to be the work of insurrectionists. She informs Stanforth of the high probability of the Covenant discovering Reach in the next few months. Parangosky, therefore, brings up the possibility of initiating [[Operation: RED FLAG]].<ref>''Data Drop 3''</ref>
| | ::And the other question becomes as Jugus mentioned earlier, if they really have changed the dates '''why didn't they establish that in the re-release of FoR''' it would have been the perfect opportunity to correct halo canon, but they didn't which again continues to show either a level of incompetence or just showing that they don't care. [[User talk:Durandal-217|Durandal-217]] 21:50, August 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| *July 23: The [[Visegrád Relay]] is attacked by a Covenant strike team, who have detected Forerunner relics. They proceed to kill the occupants in the surrounding area and disable communications around the planet. Suspecting it to be a continuation of insurrectionist activity in the system, a UNSC Army unit is sent in.<ref>''Patrol''</ref>
| | :::With 343 Industries, they really try to care, but they're utterly incompetent at what they do. The ''FoR'' re-release is evidence of that - it was a total screw-up on all levels. You'd think they would have learned from the Encyclopedia that fans are very sensitive to mistake, and they make a lot of them, but no, they came out worse. If they really want to pick themselves up, for starters they should fire their editor Eric Raab for the half-assed job he's doing, and secondly not to bloody screw up the other re-issues. - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="red"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Talk'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Halo-343|<font color="orange"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Contribs'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Editcount/Halo-343|<font color="green"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Edits'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] 10:15, August 20, 2010 (UTC) |
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| *July 24: With contact being lost with the Army unit, Col. Holland has NOBLE team sent into the facility. Discovering the presence of Covenant forces, the team re-activates the communication relay and notifies Holland of the enemy presence. Consequently, WINTER CONTINGENCY is enacted.
| | ::::Halo-343, show some respect please. {{User:CommanderTony/Sig|August 20th, 2010}} |
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| *August 1: Stanforth refuses the suggesting of initiating Operation: RED FLAG, as the initiation of the mission would give the Covenant the chance to defeat the UNSC at Reach. He then sends in another document describing the original plan, which would involve tricking larger Covenant ships into approaching Reach by opening up holes in their defence. A team of SPARTANs would then be sent in to capture the vessel as it prepares to harvest Forerunner relics. Stanforth reluctantly agrees with the idea of sacrificing Reach to the Covenant, so long as the fighting has devolved to such an extent that the planet is deamed "indefensible". Nevertheless, Stanforth informs Halsey of the plan's mission specifications, and has most of the remaining S-IIs recalled to Reach to begin preparations.<ref>''Data Drop 4''</ref>
| | :::::I would show respect were it warranted, but the subject of the ''FoR'' reissue does not warrant respect. I respect 343 for their generosity in providing the community with new ''Halo'' content, but I do not respect their lack of quality control and their inability to learn from past mistakes. I've voiced myself above, so there's no need for me to take it further, and besides, this is off-topic anyway. - [[File:Black Mesa.jpg|28px]] [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="red"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Talk'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Halo-343|<font color="orange"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Contribs'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] [[Special:Editcount/Halo-343|<font color="green"><nowiki>(</nowiki>'''Edits'''<nowiki>)</nowiki></font>]] 22:45, August 22, 2010 (UTC) |
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| *August 14th: The Covenant supercarrier ''[[Long Night of Solace]]'' is destroyed by a slipspace bomb. Unfortunately, the celebration is cut short as another Covenant fleet arrives.
| | == Another theory == |
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| *August 23: <s>Emile</s> Jun makes mention of a rumour that the S-II RED team has been sent to the front lines.
| | It is possible that that first [[Covenant]] attack force was just to knock out the communications array so that when the Covenant fleet arrived, the [[UNSC]] would not detect them (which failed for the most part). |
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| *August 27: Stanforth messages Parangosky, informing her that ONI is trying to make sure that the SPARTAN-IIs remain ignorant as to the scale of the campaign so as to keep their attention to RED FLAG. Unfortunately, Stanforth has received word from Col. Holland over the destruction of the ''[[Long Night of Solace]]'', the precise kind of ships needed for RED FLAG. Preparation is officially in full-swing, with Capt. Jacob Keyes; the AI Cortana and the {{UNSCShip|Pillar of Autumn}} being selected for the mission.<ref>''Data Drop 5''</ref>
| | Supported by the fact that the UNSC didn't know the Covenant was there on Reach. But if Winter Contingency took place ''when'' the Covenant fleet entered the system, the UNSC would have known that it ''was'' the Covenant attacking the communications array. --{{User:Cally99117/Sig}} |
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| *August 30: With the arrival of the [[Fleet of Particular Justice]], the Covenant quickly finish off the UNSC fleet and expand their glassing operations. Due to Gamma Station being unable to delete navigation data from an ONI ship and the ODGs becoming under threat, the Pillar of Autumn is forced to evacuate with only two SPARTANs - one of whom is clinically-dead.
| | :This is already common knowledge and has been stated by Bungie as the main plot for the first mission, ''Winter Contingency''. {{User:CommanderTony/Sig|August 20th, 2010}} |
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| ===Sources=== | | == New info from FoR reprint == |
| {{Ref/Sources}}
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| ===Analysis===
| | Some new information on the apparent date discrepancy... |
| It would appear that the Fall of Reach was a major blunder on the part of the brass, whereby they willingly lowered their defences in an attempt to complete RED FLAG. To ensure this plan, the SPARTAN-IIs only receive word of the Covenant invasion near the end of August, almost a month after the start of the battle; it is only then that RED team is sent to the front lines.
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| The success of RED FLAG relies on the capture of a carrier. The ''Long Night of Solace'', a supercarrier Stanforth was unaware of until the 27th, was destroyed a whole ''thirteen'' days earlier. Clearly there is a major gap in communication between him and Col. Holland. Although they are from different branches (a gap in communication could be understood), they are both working with ONI, and their defence missions should be available to each other.
| | Part of the bonus content released with the Fall of Reach reprint details an ONI investigation of a secure UNSC transmission that was leaked/intercepted by the Covenant, apparently giving away the location of Reach. This ''could'' mean that Bungie is indeed retconning, and that the Covenant already knew where Reach was by the time the Iroquois probe revealed its location. Or, I could be horribly misinterpreting this, and it could mean something entirely different. Just a little tidbit for those who don't have the book to think about. |
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| There is continuous mention of the defence of Reach when RED FLAG is mentioned - Stanforth takes note that to complete RED FLAG, he must be willing to give the Covenant the opportunity to glass Reach, perhaps explaining why the Covenant vessels near New Alexandria weren't being attacked.
| | [[File:Noblelogo.png|35px]]'''<span style="font-family: Tahoma; color: MidnightBlue;"> // [[User:Stryker117|ŝтŕγκęŕ]]''' <small>[ [[User talk:Stryker117|COM]] | [[Special:Contributions/Stryker117|LOG/M]] | [[Special:Editcount/Stryker117|LOG/S]] ]</small></span> 23:33, August 21, 2010 (UTC) |
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| -- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 14:08, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
| | On the Fall of Reach page, it says that its now true that there is 750 Covenant ships above Reach, but 314 ships exit slipspace. Shoud we change it so that 750 ships exit slipspace, or do we just ignore the fact that 436 ships appear out of thin air? [[User talk:Darb 013|Darb 013]] 17:15, August 22, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :Looks like exactly what the Data Drops are saying. The only point of contention I have is where it says ''"August 23: Emile makes mention of a rumour that the S-II RED team has been sent to the front lines."'' August 23rd was the [[Siege of New Alexandria]] and I don't recall anything there where Emile mentioned an S-II team. Is it possible you mean [[Jun-A266]], when he asked Carter ''"Sir, that true about Gauntlet, Red and Echo Teams assigned to civilian evac ops?"'' [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 15:53, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
| | I put this inthe "new info for FoR reprint" because of this. "During the Battle of Earth, Terrence Hood estimated the size of the Covenant fleet at Reach as 750 ships/[19] In the original version of Halo: The Fall of Reach, this number is instead "314," though this figure was replaced with "750" in the update." [[User talk:Darb 013|Darb 013]] 17:19, August 22, 2010 (UTC) |
| ::Yes, I believe he did mean Jun. At any rate, this sums up the battle quite well. You are also correct in saying this was a blunder on the part of the UNSC commanders, especially the folks at ONI. If Halsey hadn't been kept in the dark about everything, RED FLAG might have succeeded. But then again, if the ''Pillar'' had not fled exactly the way it did, they may have never found Installation 04... So I suppose it all pans out in the grand scheme of things, even if it did result in the biggest military and civilian loss the UNSC had ever had. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 16:04, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
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| :::There, corrected :p It would seem that the whole operation went sour near the end of August because Stanforth was desperate to find and capture a carrier, meaning that the intentional lowering of their defences wouldn't be in vain; he finally perished on August 30th as Thel 'Vadamee's ''Fleet of Particular Justice'' reinforced the other Covenant fleets, too weakened to defend themselves. I think there is a slight problem with the timeline, though; Stanforth says on the 27th that the S-IIs are being kept out of the dark, while RED is already on deployment on the 23rd. Therefore, I attempted to find an explanation by suggesting that they were kept out of the dark as to the ''extent'' of the battle - it'll be too hard to hide a battle on that scale for over a month.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 16:28, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
| | Someone obviously read this and made the changes. Never mind. [[User talk:Darb 013|Darb 013]] 02:12, August 23, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :Excellent work, gathering all the information together. It's good to see 343 trying to patch up the wounds in the canon after ''Reach'', making the battle somewhat more believable. - [[User:Halo-343|<span style="color: purple; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 128%;">'''Halo-343'''</span>]] [[User talk:Halo-343|<font color="green">('''Talk''')</font>]] 16:41, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
| | == Another theory *sigh* == |
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| ::::Forerunner, is it possible that Echo and Gauntlet are S III teams (or maybe even the unseen S II class 2)? That would fix all problems. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 17:04, 14 October 2011 (EDT) | | Well, I got to thinking about the situation and I sincerely hope Bungie isn't making a mistake and retconning the dates found in the ''Fall of Reach''. However, I have two new explanations: |
| | *Bungie hasn't yet realized that the dates are wrong |
| | *ONI covered up the initial, small invasion so Reach would have optimal defenses for the next battle. |
| | I hope this bogus theory helps out in some way. Cheers, -- [[User:CoD addict|'''CoD addict''']] '''·''' ([[User talk:CoD addict|talk]]) 15:02, August 22, 2010 (UTC) |
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| ::Currently their page marks them as Spartan teams. But there doesn't seem to be enough information to say what type of Spartans they are. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 17:14, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
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| :::Then this may help to suggest they aren't IIs. Should it be noted? [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 17:25, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
| | == How many Covenant ships are there? == |
| | So let me get this straight, there were about 300 covenant ships above Reach, but in Halo 2, Lord Hood made a comment that went something like this "the number of Covenant ships above Reach was 50 times this size". BUT (supposedly) Lord Hood was exaggerating when he said this; so this still canonically means that there is only 300 Covenant ships above Reach. BUT the new FoR "revised" verson now says that there was 750 ships above Reach; and took Lord Hood's statement literally. So one (or two) source(s) say 300, and one says 750. Which number will be displayed on the Fall of Reach page, beacuse on the Trivia section it says that the new FoR number is incorrect (does that go aganist the Canon Policy?) but the rest of the page says 750 Thank you. [[User talk:Darb 013|Darb 013]] 04:50, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :There are a few more plot holes that can now be filled. Red Team was deployed to assist civilian evacuation operations around August 23;<ref>''New Alexandria''</ref> however, they were led to believe that the invasion was much smaller than it really was.<ref name="DD5">''Data Drop 5''; implied in Halsey's journal</ref> Within the next few days, several Spartans were flown to the Aszod boneyard and were subsequently recalled to Camp Hathcock.<ref>''Breakpoint'' radio conversation</ref> By the 27th, twenty-five of the twenty-eight active NAVSPECWEAP-oriented SPARTAN-IIs,<ref name="DD5"/><ref>''Halo Wars'' timeline</ref><ref>''Defiant to the End''</ref><ref>''First Strike'' adjunct, Fred's psych exam</ref> (the missing three being Gray Team), assembled at the camp, some being pulled directly from combat.<ref name="DD5"/><ref group="note">Those Spartans assigned to Army SPECWAR, (Jorge and the "dead" Kurt), and those assigned to the Office of Naval Intelligence, (the washed-out advisers and Black Team), are not part of this count, as they were no longer subject to NAVSPECWEAP command.</ref> At this point, the Spartans were given second-generation Mark V armor.<ref>This is rather clearly implied in ''The Essential Visual Guide'', and it helps reconcile the original August 29, 2552 issue date with the retconned November 4, 2551 issue date.</ref> Meanwhile, NOBLE and other S-III teams like Gauntlet and Echo were deployed on high-priority missions across the planet;<ref group="note">''The Essential Visual Guide'' states several times that while most Spartans operate within the Navy, some teams, like NOBLE, are assigned to the Army, others to the Marine Corps, and still others to the Air Force; it very strongly suggests that there are quite a few Spartans outside the Navy. This likely refers to "special" SPARTAN-IIIs like NOBLE, [http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?cid=24530 who possessed the genetic markers sought by the SPARTAN-II program] and were thus spirited away, augmented separately from their peers, given MJOLNIR, and deployed like S-IIs. However, given that Alpha and Beta companies had 197 and 118 "leftover" candidates, respectively, the various branches would have had access to a large recruiting pool for their own Spartan units, even if they weren't quite up to par with the SPARTAN-IIs or NOBLE Team. Of course, these units may also have contained Class-II SPARTAN-IIs. Gauntlet, Echo, and the team in Aszod, which may have comprised one or both of the aforementioned teams, were presumably comprised of such non-Navy personnel.</ref> by the 30th, at least one such team had been wiped out in Aszod, as had NOBLE.<ref>''Lone Wolf''</ref>
| | Trivia also says that 750 is only used once in the book. I would go with the previous established 314. 750 turns the fall of reach into a slaughter, rather then the defiant and brutal last stand the planet made in The un-revised version. Even if it does end up being over 700, it's a really poor change by the PTB, that changes the entire context of the battle. [[User talk:ProphetofTruth|ProphetofTruth]] 13:03, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :All the while, the Spartans remained "in the dark" about the severity of the invasion, while the Army held the far side of the planet with a moderate degree of success.<ref name="DD5"/> HIGHCOM and ONI waited for the Fleet of Particular Justice to arrive, deliberately staying their counteroffensives; they rightly suspected that the fleet dispatched to glass the planet would contain a few ''Class-Five'' carriers (''CAS'' or ''CSO''), one of which was needed for RED FLAG.<ref name="DD5"/> Of course, they couldn't have expected the scale of 'Vadamee's fleet and were thus overrun within hours. If Holland had immediately told Stanforth about ''Long Night of Solace'', rather than ordering UPPER CUT and inadvertently destroying the planet, things might have gone much differently. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero Nice job breaking it, hero.] RED FLAG was a good plan, but it was a bit like playing Russian roulette with all but one cylinder loaded. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 20:33, 14 October 2011 (EDT) | | :Actually, no. In the original, the Epsilon Eridani fleet protecting Reach takes on a Covenant fleet far superior in number. They manage to destroy more Covenant ships than the size of the UNSC fleet. That's pretty good. In the revision, they're simply going against an even bigger fleet. They still destroy more ships than they should have (covenant losses are generally a third of the UNSC's fleet size).-- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 13:34, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| The only plot hole I know of left to reconcile is why the ''Pillar of Autumn'' was docked on Reach's surface rather than up in orbit, unless you guys know of any others. But otherwise, it's great the whole debacle is finally getting resolved! [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 23:06, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
| | :Honestly, I see no logical reason why 343i would change the figure from a more sensible 314 to 750 just because of Hood's line. For the first thing, dialogue spoken by characters in fiction can't always be taken literally or assumed to be entirely reliable. Second, there could be a number of reasons for Hood to say "fifty times this size". For one, he might've just been exaggerating as suggested above. Or, he was misinformed of the real size of the fleet which is a likely option. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 13:36, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
| :I believe (because of the data drops) that the ''Pillar'' was there because it had been yanked from the boneyard at Azsod and refitted. I don't think it had been flown for many years before that point. I believe there isn't anything to contradict this either. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 00:42, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
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| ::Damn! It says it was recommishioned (along with other Halcyon-class cruisers) in 2550 to serve in some battle. I don't really know what to say now. I guess this would show that Halcyon class vessels are qualified for atmosphere. (One thing to pull out of this, the ''Pillar'' crashed one Installation 04 due to damage, not because it was incapable of landing) Anyways, it could be there for further refitting, or to pick up Cortana. There isn't anything that shows this for a fact though. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 00:49, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
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| :::The Halcyons were saved from the scrap heap because of their interesting design and subsequently recommissioned in a re-fit. According to FoR, the ''Autumn'' was given a ''further'' refit in August 2552 to make her of better use for RED FLAG.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 07:21, 15 October 2011 (EDT) | | ::They obviously took Hood literally and assumed that there was an error. Hell, the article even said in the trivia section that it might be an error. 343i probably went to Halopedia to find information and skim-read through this very article.-- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 13:41, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| The Autumn could take off with the help of thrusters. That says nothing about landing, especially when there's no dock around. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 02:20, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
| | ::Well, if the boot doesn't fit, don't wear it. Since that huge number of ships would warp the Battle of Reach into a slaughterhouse, we shouldn't consider it cannon because, it wasn't an easy victory for the Covenant. It was just a mistake on the part of 343i who thought they were helping out some of the inconsistencies in the book. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:purple">'''Que'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:red">'''Sera'''</span>]], [[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:orange">'''Sera'''</span>]] 13:48, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| Well, it had to ''get'' on the ground in the first place. I believe somebody here likes to use the phrase "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." It has never been stated that they can't land on a planet. It was kinda just assumed because the (heavily damaged) PoA crashed on Installation 04. We ignored the fact that it had suffered near irreperable damage in the minutes before this. There is, in fact, some circumstantial evidence to suggest they can land: the fact that Spark suggested the crew of the ''Pillar'' land on 04 in one of the terminals we've gotten to see. Also, in the Halo 2 flashback of Reach (see [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnmsgI6SOp0 here]) it shows the ''Pillar'' breaking the Covenant blockade as the Covies are glassing the planet. It even looks like it's coming from the planet. This isn't very solid, but I'm fine with that. So here is what it appears happened, assuming the PoA can land:
| | :::It was an intentional alteration. Besides, the Orbital Defence Platforms played a ''very'' big part.-- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 13:54, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| *The PoA prepares to go to slipspace (Good question here, where were they gonna go to?), but turns back to Reach when they get a transmission that massive Covenant reinforcments arrived, including ships that fit the bill for RED FLAG. They also turn back because the brass realizes that they've bitten off more than they can chew, and need lots of help.
| | ::::It was intentional, but it seems they completely ignored the context. 750 Covenant ships could obliterate all human defenses with a single salvo of plasma torpedoes. As a theory to make the new figure more acceptable, could it be possible that 436 of the ships were actually smaller craft, like fighters or troop transports, leaving 314 capital ships? I don't have the reissue so I can't check the exact wording. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 14:00, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
| *The Spartans are sent to Gamma station and the ODP generators as the battle erupts around them. The ''Pillar'' fights ships in orbit around the planet.
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| *The fleet is all but defeated, the ODPs have fallen silent, and the PoA rescues Blue team from Gamma station. The chief puts himself into cryo.
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| *Then the ''Pillar'' lands to pick up Cortana, UNSC evacuees, and Nobel team/the [[Unidentified SPARTAN unit (Aszod)|team]] found dead at Azsod. This last part fails however, because all are dead or unable to get to the ''Pillar'' in time, except for Noble Six, who had to man the Onager to protect the Autumn as it fled. This move to pick up the Spartans could have been done with the hopes of still completing RED FLAG.
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| There. It all fits, not seamlessly, but there it is. We do need to find out if Halcyons can land, but that's the only thing standing in the way of this making sense. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 10:48, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
| | :::The ODP's did play a very big part, but Reach only had 20 of them, which would be no match for 750 Covenant starships.[[User talk:Darb 013|Darb 013]] 14:13, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :I remember a quote somewhere where someone protests against the Autumn landing, since it's not rated for atmosphere, or something like that. Can't find it yet, though. But I mean "land" as in the same way a blimp would land versus an airplane or helicopter. An airplane or helicopter can just touch down on the ground wherever it needs to, provided it has enough space, while a blimp needs the help of a dock in midair. So it can come down to the surface to meet with a dock, it just can't be expected to do in places without one. That, and it wouldn't be able to take off again without additional thrusters. | | ::::Is it taking into account that there are other colonies in the system? Perhaps the excess ships were busy on Verge or Tribute.-- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 14:22, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :But they might probably explain this in the next Data Drop. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 11:25, 15 October 2011 (EDT) | | :::::Actually, Verge is not in Epsilon Eridani, as evidenced by the fact it was stated to have been invaded months before the invasion of Tribute (don't ask me how Team Black got to another system during a single battle, though). Still, there's a remarkable number of colonies in the Epsilon Eridani system, so dividing the fleet to each would leave Reach with a smaller number of ships. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 14:30, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| ::We see in the ship-breaking yard that Halcyons are indeed sent there to die. Simply abandoning a vessel while ready to crash into a planet is not a bright idea - the force of the impact could be a hazard to people nearby as rubble returns to the planet. Perhaps the Autumn has some never-before-seen vertical boosters that are powerful enough to slow it down in-atmospher. In fact, it would be a design flaw ''not'' to install vertical thrusters. Take note of the space orbiter recently retired by NASA - it has thrusters elsewhere on its body so that it can tilt to properly mate with a station. In a three-dimensional environment such as space, this is a crucial form of movement. So - it could be that it slowed itself down via these hypothetical thrusters (or even jumped into the atmosphere so it doesn't have to fall as far) or was just fitted with another series of the larger booster rockets before landing on Reach for the emergency pickup.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 11:56, 15 October 2011 (EDT) | | ::::::At least four colonies - Reach; Beta Gabriel; Circumstance; Tantalus and possibly Epsilon Eridani IV (could just be a more scientific name for one of the previous colonies, like calling Earth "Sol III").-- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 14:34, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| After the boosters fell off in the final cutscene of [[The Pillar of Autumn (Halo: Reach level)]], the Autumn showed itself to be able to float much like a UNSC Frigate could. So perhaps to simplify it, rather than "never-before-seen thrusters", it can slow its descent using its "antigravity" (which I personally think is possibly an [http://halofanon.wikia.com/wiki/EHD_lifter_drive Electrohydrodynamic lifter] instead), but doing so to touch down with the ground is a crude landing akin to deflating a blimp to land on an island. Normal landing operation would probably be that it slows to several meters off the ground, then moves forward to connect to a dock, which then holds it in place while its "antigravity" is shut off. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 12:17, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
| | ::Reach is probably the only planet with ODPs in the system since it is a UNSC Powerhouse, so the majority of the Covenant fleet would be attacking Reach since it is the only planet that is putting up a fight. It would be a waste of "ship-power" to send a lot of ships on a planet you could glass later on (when you arnt getting shot at by the ODPs). [[User talk:Darb 013|Darb 013]] 15:01, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
| :Well isn't it ''in'' a dock of sorts? It looks like it's on a platform originally made for stripping down cruiser class vessels for scrap. Couldn't they be using that as a make-shift dock? [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 12:22, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
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| Exactly. It ''is'' a dock, so it landed there. I was referring to the landing at Installation 04, where there wouldn't be any dock for lightyears. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 12:43, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
| | :::That's not the way the Covenant act. Hell, they decided to go past the Home Fleet at Earth and float above New Mombasa. Tactically, that's stupid. The Covenant aren't good tacticians at all - that's how the UNSC could win ground battles.-- [[User talk:Forerunner|Forerunner]] 15:05, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
| :Alright. Sorry, I didn't read very thoroughly. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 12:45, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
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| @Courage never dies: As per your guess about the Boneyard Radio Conversation, there does not seem to be any supporting evidence to your claim. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsk_STNmCNs&hd=1].
| | ::::Good point, they are quite dumb sometimes. [[User talk:Darb 013|Darb 013]] 15:18, August 24, 2010 (UTC) |
| | ::::Right, Forerunner. In some of the books, some of the Covenant mention that Humans are indeed excellent tacticians and some Elites even go so far as to admire them for it. -- [[User:CoD addict|'''CoD addict''']] '''·''' ([[User talk:CoD addict|talk]]) 01:35, August 28, 2010 (UTC) |
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| @Tuckerscreator: No...no-one ever says that, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slk74yQBzBU&hd=1&t=3m46s].
| | == Recommend changing main picture == |
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| Oh yeah, and guys, didn't you know? Bungie said that Halo: Reach was perfect. No canon-holes whatsoever :p.
| | I believe it would be more appropriate to change the main picture at the top-right of the page to one of the more sorrowful pictures of, say, Noble Six grimly looking up at the crashed Corvette with nought but his pistol. |
| :: Vegerot goes RAWR! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 01:11, 16 October 2011 (EDT)
| | :I agree. If we're going to call this page "Fall of Reach", let us convey that impression. -- [[User talk:SFH|SFH]] 01:56, September 15, 2010 (UTC) |
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| :::Sorry. I meant ''Breakpoint'', not ''Boneyard''. By the way, ''"Courage never dies"'' is just my signature. I'm Braidenvl. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 11:54, 16 October 2011 (EDT)
| | Me too, but preferably one without Noble Six in it. But I do agree that the current image does not reflect the scale of the battle all that well and the previous image, though rather dated, conveyed it a little better.[[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 02:04, September 15, 2010 (UTC) |
| ::::[http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=24278669&player=gunstalker43] I kinda understand what you're saying, but not really enough. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 13:48, 16 October 2011 (EDT)
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| | == Limited Edition content-Possible solution to date disunity == |
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| I just checked Data Drop 6. It seems that even into the end of August much of the planet was left unaware of the invasion; much of the fleet was ordered to congregate into one spot. I presume Stanforth wanted to ensure that the defence fleet was in a good enough condition to fight back the Covenant whenever they went further than the intended trap area. While it appears at first that only those involved with the mission knew nothing, it is actually much more - the fleet was congregated and there was no message suggesting an invasion. I doubt Haverson could have disrupted the Autumn's comm. relay without being mentioned as a faulty system. Further, there are no proper reports from anywhere on the ground - meteorological sattelites were the only indicators of plasma bombardment, as the Covenant were too far away for their glassing activities to be seen past brief "fireworks". My guess is that, being an "emergency military dictatorship" (you try being a democracy under the military), the spread of communication was restricted by Stanforth to make sure that Keyes wouldn't turn hero and crash the Autumn into a ship and risk killing the SPARTANS.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 06:41, 22 October 2011 (EDT) | | Yesterday I picked up the limited Edition of Halo Reach and I just finished reading the Hasley's Journal and it seems to suport the events of the fall of Reach while mentioning a small invasion during the July 26 2552 entry. Later it says "If one small team of Covanat have infiltrated Reach, More shall surly follow. I must prepare for the worst case senerio with operation white glove." then the journal continues following the timeline established in the Novel The fall of Reach (the Journal also validates the events of Halo Wars and tries to put light to the differing acounts of Spartans as well)'''[[User talk:Dragrath1|Dragrath1]] 19:45, September 15, 2010 (UTC)''' |
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| :Reading the data drop, I was under the impression Keyes knew. The whole point of the fleet being left out of the battle was so that they could lure in a ship of necessary class (A super carrier or assault carrier I believe). Ironically, they '''did''' with the [[Long Night of Solace]], but the army sluffed up when they didn't tell anyone at Oni. So once Nobel team had nuked it, they had doomed Reach. If RED FLAG had been completed at that moment, the fleet they were holding back could have moved in sooner and saved the planet. [[User:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''Phil'''</span>]], ''[[User talk:FatalSnipe117|<span style="color:green">'''pestilence!'''</span>]]'' 10:04, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
| | == Retcons == |
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| ::Perhaps Keyes was aware of it, but was too focused on RED FLAG to contradict orders. Regardless, ONI wanted the Autumn's crew and those of other vessels within the defence fleet to remain ignorant of the threat unless their assistance was necessary. I'd say that even if Keyes did know, ONI may not have counted on that, and moved the Autumn into the cluster of ignorant vessels to provide a convincing lie, anyway.- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 11:44, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
| | So, now that we know for a fact that ''Reach'' contains massive amounts of retcons, especially surrounding the events of Aug 30, how are we going to handle all this? Halsey's journal does reconcile some of it, but not major inconsistencies, like Halsey being in Sword Base while she's supposed to be somewhere else, the Pillar of Autumn being on the surface while it should've escaped already, etc. At least the old timeline is something we have to abandon at this point, if we are to accept Halo: Reach as superior canon. Either way, it's going to require a lot of work. For example, are we going to assume that the space battle in The Fall of Reach occurred after the ''Autumn'' lifts off in ''Reach''? Even that raises inconsistencies with the canon, but just throwing all of the "old" canon away doesn't feel right either. Save what can be saved. The question is, how are we going to do it without slipping to the fanon side too much? --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 19:56, September 15, 2010 (UTC) |
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| If you look in the back of Halo: The Fall of Reach, you can see that Keyes DID know what was going on. I already knew this ever since the new editions came out, I just forgot to put that data in the articles, whoops. Vegerot goes RAWR! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 23:02, 22 October 2011 (EDT)!
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| :I'm not so sure of that. Granted, I don't own the new Fall of Reach, but in these Data Drops they repeatedly state that their primary reason to keep the Fall secret is because they know that if Keyes found out, he would insist on defending Reach. Given as Keyes was previously shown to keep big secrets like the Spartan-II program, I don't think their judgement is wrong here, as there's going to be a point where a person's honor will crack, and the Fall is considerably bigger to try and hide from your crewmates. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 23:07, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
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| Well, it pretty clearly states in the revised version that he knew. It says that... oh, to hell with copying! Just pirate the revised version online! Vegerot goes RAWR! [[User:Vegerot|<span style="color:midnightblue; font-weight:bold">Vegerot</span>]] ([[User talk:Vegerot|<span style="color:grey">talk</span>]]) 23:44, 22 October 2011 (EDT)!
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| ====Sources====
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| {{Ref/Sources}}
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| ===Notes===
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| <references group="note"/>
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| == When exactly did the ''Pillar of Autumn'' dock? ==
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| I just read ''Halo: The Fall of Reach'' and I can't make the connection as to when the ''Pillar of Autumn'' could have canonically docked at the Aszod ship breaking yards... If someone has an explanation that would settle my confusion, it would be greatly appreciated. [[User:Iota Eta Pi|<span style="font-family:font; color:#B80000;">Ιι</span>]] [[User talk:Iota Eta Pi|<span style="font-family:font; color:#B80000;">Ηη</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Iota Eta Pi|<span style="font-family:font; color:#B80000;">Ππ</span>]] 17:45, 10 November 2011 (EST)
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| :The'' Autumn'' extracted John and Linda from ''Gamma Station'' at 0637; Keyes gave the order to leave the system at 0647. However, just before the cruiser jumped out-system, Halsey requested that the ''Autumn'' land at the Aszod ship-breaking yards, which were the only safe extraction point left on the Eposz continent. There, the crew would retrieve the fragment of Cortana that was being couriered by the remaining members of NOBLE Team. Carter, Emile, and B312 finally arrived at 1652 hours, though, unfortunately, they could not be evacuated along with Cortana's fragment.
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| :To summarize: The ''Autumn'' went groundside around 0700 hours and finally left Reach around 1700 hours. Rather than leaving immediately as ''The Fall of Reach'' suggests, the vessel remained in drydock for roughly ten hours. --[[User talk:Braidenvl|Courage never dies.]] 18:23, 10 November 2011 (EST)
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| ::Thank both of you. [[User:Iota Eta Pi|<span style="font-family:font; color:#B80000;">Ιι</span>]] [[User talk:Iota Eta Pi|<span style="font-family:font; color:#B80000;">Ηη</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Iota Eta Pi|<span style="font-family:font; color:#B80000;">Ππ</span>]] 20:17, 10 November 2011 (EST)
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| == Rename article? ==
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| Shouldn't this article be renamed "Battle of Reach"? It's more proper and keeps the format that all the other battles are named as. Using the word "fall" is rather informal and has no reason for it; we don't call the Battle of Harvest "Fall of Harvest", or the Battle of Arcadia "Fall of Arcadia". Sona 03:59, 6 May 2013 (EDT)
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| Makes sense to me, but then again it's commonly reffered to as the Fall in the books and games. I think I'll probably support this, though I'm not sure everyone will. Halo 4 is peaking at 20k players, I find this hilarious. '''This is''' [[User:CraZboy557|<span style="color:orange; font-family: Gill Sans Ultra Bold; font-size: 105%;">'''craZboy557'''</span>]], '''signing off.''' 09:04, 6 May 2013 (EDT)
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| :While “Battle” would make it consistent and fit into format, it's referred to as “the fall” universally. As CraZboy stated, there’s references of the falling throughout various media.
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| *Halo: The Fall of Reach, Halo: Fall of Reach (comic),“Halo: Reach ...... falls 2010" (video game tagline)
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| *Halsey: "Do you? Mankind is outmatched. When Reach falls - and it will fall - our annihilation is all but certain. (Halo: Reach)
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| *Kelly: “We've lost. Reach is going to fall.” (Halo: First Strike)
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| :Calling it the fall of reach captivates the uniqueness of the battle and the importance of the planet itself. Reach was special to humanity as it was their most heavily fortified world. It wasn't just another battle, it was “The Fall of Reach!” Quite possibly the most important event central to the Halo mythos. I say let the name be. [[User:Forgotten Helljumper|Forgotten Helljumper]] ([[User talk:Forgotten Helljumper|talk]]) 10:43, 6 May 2013 (EDT)
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| ::Helljumper highlighted the point perfectly. As it is almost universally called the Fall of Reach, we should use that name, since it is the most commonly used name in canon. No need to confuse readers with the naming.--{{User:Spartacus/Sig}} 10:59, 6 May 2013 (EDT)
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| == Covenants aware of the location of Reach prior to Stanforth fleet arrival ==
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| “However, the location of Reach itself was already known to the Covenant; a Forerunner artifact that the Covenant had recovered from Sigma Octanus IV indicated that Reach held another artifact, proving Parangosky's and Stanforth's suspicions correct.” (Juste before '''Pre-invasion'' section)
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| Where did that come from ? [[Special:Contributions/81.53.137.51|81.53.137.51]] 10:31, 29 December 2013 (EST)
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| == Fleet Sizes ==
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| Since we only have Hood's hyperbole and the one statement I think we should revert the fleet size to 315. The Fleet of Particular Justice had 60 vessels according to Locke. If the fleet of particular justice alone did have 315 warships then they wouldn't have been so surprised when they were all at Reach. [[User:Lord 'Themee|Lord 'Themee]] ([[User talk:Lord 'Themee|talk]]) 02:39, 17 November 2014 (EST)
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| Why is the number set at 315 ships and not 315+? There were three fleets of ships that attacked Reach: 1) the cloaked supercarrier and a small group of heavy corvettes; 2) the fleet of battlecruisers that arrived just after the supercarrier was destroyed (with maybe a dozen or so ships judging from Halo Reach's cutscene); 3) and lastly Thel Vadamee's fleet of 315 ships.
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| To be fair it's extremely unclear what happened to the second fleet that arrived just after the Supercarrier was destroyed. According to Auntie Dot, Reach's defense fleet already had been wiped out (or rendered incapable of fighting the supercarrier) before the supercarrier was destroyed (with the strange exception of the orbital defense platforms I guess, but you could argue that they were mostly only on one part of the planet). So either the "60% of the UNSC fleet" that came to reinforce Reach destroyed these ships and it was never mentioned or the Covenant fleet hid or retreated before the UNSC fleet arrived. According to Auntie Dot, the UNSC fleet should have started arriving the day after the supercarrier was destroyed (over two weeks before Thel's fleet arrived at Reach).
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| Anyway, what happened to that fleet is unclear, but it should still be listed that there not only the 315 ships from Thel's fleet but also 7+ ships from the first invasion (1 supercarrier and at least 6 corvettes), and 13+ ships from the fleet that arrived after the supercarrier's destruction (3 assault carriers and at least 10 battlecruisers).
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| 335+, not 315
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| == Spartn 3 deaths ==
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| For the number of Spartan 3's that died on Reach thier were quite a few on level Lone Wolf. Has anyone counted how many their where? [[User:Primordial|Primordial]] ([[User talk:Primordial|talk]]) 13:10, 2 January 2017 (EST)
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| [[Thirteen dead Spartans]], it is on the Battle of Aszod page. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 14:00, 2 January 2017 (EST)
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| == I'm very confused ==
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| How is the Fall of Reach a decisive victory for the Covenant as since both sides suffer heavy casualties wouldn't it be a pyrhhic victory for the Covenant as its a victory with soooo many losses it's not enough worth it? --[[User:The Ultimate Pie|The Ultimate Pie]] ([[User talk:The Ultimate Pie|talk]]) 19:34, 14 September 2017 (EDT)
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| Because they destroyed Reach, Humanities primary fortress world and crippled their ship production. That is a decisive victory. A pyrrhic victory is this
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| pyr·rhic1
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| ˈpirik/Submit
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| adjective
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| (of a victory) won at too great a cost to have been worthwhile for the victor.
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| [[User:AlertFiend|AlertFiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 19:54, 14 September 2017 (EDT)
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| :AlertFiend is right. Given the size of the Covenant military, a hundred or so ships and several thousand personnel was a small price to pay for glassing the second most important world in human space. They could have taken similar losses in the future (such as at Earth) if necessary. However, if they had suffered the same casualties while attacking a relatively unimportant target such as Arcadia, that would have been a Pyrrhic victory; the cost would have outweighed the results. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 08:51, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
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