Editing Talk:Energy shielding

I was pondering something while writing my most recent fanfiction, which will be finished hopefully by the release of Halo 3 for anyone interested, but I must repeat hopefully. How exactly do the energy shields accomplish what they do? Stopping projectiles, nullifying plasma charges, absorbing kinetic energy from explosions. Its all seeming very peculiar to me, and I would like some insight if thats not too much to ask. :)

I do have some thoughts on the matter, as I normally do on most things. Speculation mainly, but I do throw in a scientific fact every once in a while. Gives it some credit, doesn't it? ;)

1) Energy shields work in a work smiliar way to a field of electrical energy, which is not unlike a magnetic field in a sense of phenomena. A pulse of energy, which can be seen as the shield 'recharges' or more effectively put 're-establishes' itself, flows throughout the shield, ever perpetuating like a pendulum-effect. This shielded energy absorbs the impact and flow of Plasma, Kinetic dispersed energy such as a plasma grenade or fragmentation grenade's explosion, and physical projectiles such as bullets. The fact that I think it is an electrical or magnetic based system is because of the properties that they share with what the shielding in Halo provides. They both act in a vacuum and they propogate with finite speed, which is shown as how the shield cannot immediately re-establish themselves and need time to re-eastablish once the field of flow is broken. Yes, it's not canon, but it's a good guess. I think at least. Oh well, if you could understand that, please leave a comment so I can add you to the ''Smart List''. :)

2) They are just magical that way, and thats good enough for me. Why over-complicate something when there's no need.

I had a third idea, but I think it merged its way into the first one. Thats strange, I should keep my ideas on a leash. Oh well. Have fun with that. ;)

Love,

A friend of a friend

*'''[[User:CaptainAdamGraves]]'''

== RE: Physics of Shields ==

I am afraid I must interject negatively to your comment.

I don't feel that shields are "capture" type technology, like pendulums that absorb energy and recharge. If so, shields wouldn't recharge from kinetic impacts. They'd just stay dead: most definately not the case. Does it mean that one that takes a direct plasma bolt that dies will have one's MJOLNIR armor's shields recharging after he/she dies at a rate faster than if the person had taken a little plasma rifle shot? DOes the extent a shield is lower determine how fast it pops up? In my experiences, I'm very sure the rate stays constant no matter what energy hits you.

I believe that shields are a projection of energized particles from several projector points, that have quantum spins and trajectories across MJOLNIR or Elite Exposure Armor that cancel incoming particles. Since plasma bolts ''appear'' to do more damage to shields, this means that the spins of these enigmatic shield-particles are more vulnerable to misalignment from energy bursts. When a shield goes down, I believe that the sparks across one's body armor are simply proximal bursts to restart a deflector shield: energizing pulses. When the particles are reprojected, the shield goes up again.

These shields are also molded by magnetic fields, I believe, to contour around the user's body armor. A surface tension of particles is probably maintained so that the shield doesn't propogate with infinite speed outwards in diminishing desnity away from the user: that'd drain the user's power sources.

Of course, none of this is canon.

And Captain Graves, I write fanon too...=D...wanna exchange?

Cheers,

'''[[User:RelentlessRecusant|<font color="red">Relentless</font>]]''[[User talk:RelentlessRecusant|<font color="blue">Recusant</font>]]''[[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]]''' 00:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

== Fact or Fiction ==

This is just me acknowledging that someone disputed some fact in the article, but didn't bother to tell us what. I read the article briefly, and found nothing that warranted the Fact or Fiction template, so I am removing it. If there really is something, then post it here.--'''[[User:Rotaretilbo|Rot]]''' 2025 7.12.06


== Energy Shields (disscusion) ==

The real thing that should throw people off is that the shield is designed to repel all matter it touches or all matter that touches it. Since that is the case when ever a Spartan jumps, 1000Lbs+ of pressure is put on the shield and should drain it, since a melee attack from an elite can take down the shield, and I don't think an elite can throw a punch with the force of 1000Lbs. Also note that when a Spartan holds a weapon in his hand, why doesn't the shield glow as he/she holds it. And if there is a gap either in the hand and feet area of the shield, it would give an opening that can lead to the fall(death) of the person wearing in the armor, it would also be very hard to hold things since the shield doesn't let anything through unless it is like the bubble shield which is suppost be of human origin, which is hard to believe since the brutes use it all the time and i still don't know how they got it.

The shields are also greatly dialed back around the inner part of the hands, and the bottoms of the feet. This was explained in Fall of Reach when the Mjolnir MK V was introduced, and allows the user to maintain traction on the ground, as well as enable them to interact with their environment without turning the shields off, though at the cost of less protection there, which is offset by the fact that the inside of your hand and bottom of your feet are two extremely hard-to-hit targets, even by pure chance. That means the shields aren't strong enough to repel the touch of the object/ground, and perhaps allow the objects through to be gripped by the actual armor itself.[[User talk:SpartaWolf|SpartaWolf]] 06:20, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

== Shield Life ==

I have heard that after 15 shield depletions/recharges in halo 2, the shield stops working,is that true?
Not that anyone will ever live that long anyway mind you.--[[User:Mac10&Cheese|Mac10&amp;Cheese]] 18:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
:I've never seen that happen, and shield drains are very common, I bet you would drain your shield 15 time on one of the longer levels, like [[Regret]] on the higher difficulties. --<b>[[User:ED|<font color="000000">ED</font>]]<sub>([[User talk:ED|<font color="000000">talk</font>]])</sub><sup>[http://halofanon.wikia.com/wiki/Halo:_Shock_Front <font color="000000">(shockfront)</font>]</sup></b> 04:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Thats just what i've heard,But it could be true.I mean you won't live that long in multiplayer.--[[User:Mac10&Cheese|Mac10&amp;Cheese]] 03:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

== Speculation ==

When full body shielding or non-visible shielding is struck, it seems to jump into place or at least show a deflection. Its as if the whole shield 'hardens' i.e. increasing in density in a manner that attempts to deflect incoming damage. Naturally, it is limited by scale, power supplies, etc.

Given that at least MJOLNIR shielding is derived from Jackal shield guantlets, that would explain it.

As for how the shields work, I imagine that it is composed of plasma held between two opposing magnetic fields. When combined with a motion sensor or RADAR, the incoming force is sensed by the system, and gives the largest amount of energy it can to attempt to deal with threat. Perhaps this is done via pulsing the energy to the plasma at a level that best deals with threat.

The specific reaction caused by some shields seems similar to what is seen in plasma globes, which have gases inside charged into plasma by electricity. The heat and attraction of the plasma filaments upon contact with the glass is cuased by the fact that the body is a conducting object, and that the plasma inside is constantly shifting charge and position due to internal movement and air pressure.

The plasma seeks out a conducting object, and the glass and the rest of the device in conjunction with your hand forms a complete circuit. Perhaps that is how the shield works; it reacts with projectiles and plasma in the same manner, since they would be conducting objects or gases.

Damage caused by heat and other factors would be dealt with via the plasma absorbing and dispersing that energy like a buffer. Naturally, any damage incurred would weaken the shield, as less energy can be supplied etc.

--[[User:Exalted Obliteration|Exalted Obliteration]] 02:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

== RE: RE: Shield physics ==

I think the shields behave most like a magnetically confined field of plasma. This is somewhat like your idea, so I guess this could be qualified as expanding on your idea.

First a strongly ionized gas, likely hydrogen or deuterium is released and pulled back towards the generators by a magnetic field. It is released to the side and pulled inwards, causing it to orbit the generators, flowing around it like wind in a hurricane. The plasma is in a rather delicate balance, pulled in by magnetism and pushed out by centrifugal force in equal measure.

The plasma could be heated by an AC electric current, which would also help damage ballistic projectiles. When struck by projectiles or plasma, the electric field would be disrupted, so the shield could not recharge until it was reestablished. This explains why it has to wait until it can recharge and does not recharge when projectiles are passing through it.

When a round enters a shield, it is rapidly heated by contact with the shield, vapourising it while ionizing it. This disperses the energy of the round into a cloud of vapour that is pulled to the side and even more dispersed by the magnetic field that holds the plasma in place, nullifying the weapon's damage but cooling the plasma and removing some of it.

When a plasma bolt hits it, the electromagnetic pulse interferes with the magnetic field of the shield, causing a failure in the confinement system and releasing some of the plasma. The pulse also raises the pressure and electric charge of the shield plasma it contacts to where it is too much for the shield to handle, disrupting the delicate balance between the electromagnets and centrifugal force and causing the plasma to be lost.

The suits that use it already store deuterium and tritium for their on-board reactors, so there is no reason why they couldn't not use some of it for their energy shields as well. This would also mean while the shield is on the reactors use a tremendous amount of energy to maintain the shield and take a tremendous amount of fuel to recharge it.

There are a few problems with this theory:

1. A melee would carry right through the shield without so much as slowing down due to their massive momentum, the shield would not absorb damage but rather damage the weapon. This is not so in game.

2. A powerful projectile or any melee would cause the shield to backlash and burn the user, which does not happen in game.

3. Heat would do no damage to shields, in fact heated projectiles or fluids (such as the ammunition of spikers or flamethrowers, respectively) would be more vulnerable to shields than non-heated or cooled projectiles. This is not so in the games.

4. The shields would be less effective in colder environments, particularly environments where cold solids and liquids come into contact with the shield. They would burn more energy and loose it to the environment, raising the damage done by incoming projectiles and slowing the charge time. Yet, in places like sidewinder and snowbound you can walk in the snow without loosing power or leaving steam and pools of water in your wake.

5. Anything brought into the shield, such as stored equipment and weapons would interfere with it and be damaged. Explosives would be set off, incendiaries would burn, etcetera. The only way to get around this is to make holes in the shield, holes that simply don't exist in game.

6. The shield could not cover the bottom or sides of the feet because the ground would interfere with it.

7. It would not work under water, the plasma would be absorbed by the water as would the electricity. The shield would be drained instantaneously in a big puff of steam and could not recharge. Yet, the shield is unaffected by water in game.

8. The shield would glow at least faintly at all times, obscuring visibility, while creating a rather annoying buzzing sound.

It is worth noting all of this is likely oversight on the part of the designers.





I've been directed to here from my thread that I made on the same subject - you make some interesting oversights to the shields limitations, see if you agree with my theories here: http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=47558407&viewreplies

[[User talk:Thebigyeash|Thebigyeash]] 22:06, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

==Bubble shield==
I think the bubble shield shouldn't be in the human section. It is never stated if it is of human or covenant design. [[User talk:Datadeleter|DatrDeletr]] 15:49, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
:It has been stated, [http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive26.pl?read=765343 here]. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 15:58, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

== Speculation only ==

In the shield generator ship of the unsc we dont know much about but if it generates a shield and there is an example of the unsc shield ship over reach in the year 2517 then the unsc has had shield technology even before the covenant ever started the war on humanity.  Maybe the unsc only had a limited ability to apply it but with more research and the covenants superior technology to reverse engineer thats why we may have some advancements in it. {{Unsigned|Spartan Matt}}

:As far as I'm aware, the ship in question was first seen as discarded concept art, and labelled only "Shield Ship." What might that mean? It looks like a hybrid between a frigate and an Albatross, unloading cargo and vehicles. Nothing remotely shield-like about it. We simply assumed that the "shield" in its name stood for shield generator. Then, when we saw it in Fall of Reach - Bootcamp, we accepted it ac canon without getting a canon name - is shield its function, or its name, or even it's class? Shield-class troop ship? UNSC ''Shield''? We don't know. I think it was a little premature to name it Shield generator ship in the first place. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 01:09, 6 September 2011 (EDT)

::Actually, it was identified that way (''Shield generator ship'') in the concept art of HCE/H2. Since it's a concept, it's function should never be taken as concrete canon.— <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span> 01:31, 6 September 2011 (EDT)

:::Really? My recollection must be wrong. Thanks. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 07:56, 6 September 2011 (EDT)

== Shield colours ==

Is there somewhere on the site that lists all the different colours of energy shields? I think it's something that should be included somewhere.--[[Special:Contributions/210.56.88.83|210.56.88.83]] 02:05, 19 January 2012 (EST)
:As far as I know, there's nowhere on the wiki that lists their colours, though I do agree that it would be a good idea.--[[User talk:Soul reaper|Soul reaper]] 11:46, 21 January 2012 (EST)

== Armour colour not indicative of shield strength ==
Per above, the only time armour colour is indicative of shield strength is only when it is concerned with gameplay experience: in gameplay, Minors are given weaker shield and health properties than Majors, Majors having weaker properties than Ultras and so on. In canon, it would appear that all of the armour (regardless of rank, colour, position) have the same shielding strength; in [[Winter Contingency (level)|Winter Contingency level]] of ''Reach'', it took no more than a magazine from a M6 pistol or a MA37 rifle to remove the energy shields of a Zealot. This is the only time we ever see brass applied on energy shields in a cutscene (Halo Wars' Elites didn't have energy shielding for some unknown reason). So, take the Elites as an example, armour colour indicates the amount of kills they've achieved throughout their service and nothing more. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  00:34, 5 October 2012 (EDT)

:Well, in that cutscene those shields failed to flare when receiving melees (Sara Sorvad punches Jorge and Six punches the Zealot, yet there's no shield reactions then). Plus, looking closely, Carter actually starts firing at the Field Marshal too once he pushes Kat out of the way. And there's been several times in the cutscenes where shields haven't responded properly, such as Emile's charging faster than usual at the beginning of Pillar of Autumn, or why Kat's or all of NOBLE's seem to be down yet there's no shield scatter. Point being, I don't think it's fair to throw out all that data about shield strength just because one cutscene seems to suggest slightly otherwise. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 02:43, 5 October 2012 (EDT)

::To discuss the operation of shielding technology is almost impossible and cannot be realistically explained. Doing so will just end up with tons of theories.
::It is possible that meleeing do not trigger shielding (novels might disprove this; avoid thinking about gameplay). Emile's shielding charged faster because he jumped out/landed first. I always thought that shielding is disabled if the individual does not have their full armour on: simply removing the helmet would thus disable shielding. Hence why shield scatter was not present in that cutscene. On the other hand, it is assumed that Kat did not engage her shielding system because she underestimates the gravity of her situation (echoing her fatal lapse of situational awareness as indicated in her performance report). The same could be said for the rest of Noble, but luck was not on Kat's side... so, headshot! Several things can be explained using cutscenes as a source of canon. On another point, it wouldn't make much sense for the Sangheili honour culture: an Elite could argue another to be a coward for having superior shielding and is not a honourable warrior because of such... but then again, everything about the Elite culture is big contradiction/mess/inconsistent/insert-synonym-here-about-authors-being-inconsistent as illustrated by the novels and short films. — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  08:07, 5 October 2012 (EDT)

Emile jumped just a second earlier. His shield still recharged in about two seconds. And there doesn't to be any good reason for why melees would not trigger shields; it's just a surrounding field. One could just as easily say that Elites take a "you earned these shields by your kills" approach, so I don't think it's a good idea to guess this way and throw away years of information for one guess. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 13:21, 6 October 2012 (EDT)

:Knew I should've checked that cutscene and not rely on an image before I posted that comment. Damn you memory! Anyway, as I said previously, any attempt to make sense of shielding is almost impossible and cannot be realistically explained, given the amount of description Fall of Reach has provided. I guess I'll just leave this as it is for now.— <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  14:15, 6 October 2012 (EDT)

::Reviving this interesting discussion. :)
::I wonder if the shield is only visible when it receives enough force (that is, you apply force on it). Sara's melee on Jorge's armour was not strong enough to cause tension on the shielding technology; she's your average human after all. I would think that Emile's armor charged faster since he had a smoother terrain than Six when they jumped but this might be a bit far fetched.
::I would think that that scene is canon since it is not affected by the game's difficulty setting or any gameplay settings: regardless of what difficulty you're playing, the shields of the characters in the game remains the same. Since difficulty settings is purely gameplay (and the fact that there is no such thing as "true canon difficulty"), it is safe to say that any content affected by gameplay won't (and shouldn't) be considered canon (like what we did with most gameplay content).— <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  09:22, 21 October 2012 (EDT)

:Noble Six, a SPARTAN-III, still punched an Elite Zealot in the face and nothing flared. Yet there had to have been a shield because if not, that Elite should have broken its face. The ODSTs in Halo 3: ODST and meleeing Marines, all measly humans, were strong enough to cause visible flares on Covie shields. Sure, they've trained a bit, but they're still well below the strength of Spartans; they need four melees to kill a Jackal! Lone Wolf's final cutscene also has Six fire an assault rifle for about 9 seconds without reloading despite a MA37's ammo usually depleting in 4. In that same cutscene, Six is also strong enough to punch straight through Generals' and Zealots' shields, despite that punch in Winter Contingency doing no visible harm to another. Point being, it's not feasible to count on the cutscenes to trump the gameplay every time. The two are both an informing source. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 12:57, 21 October 2012 (EDT)

::I'm sure punching someone from the floor would not deliver much force compared to when you're in a standing stance. You would need more room/space to throw what I think MMA fighters would call a "good blow". Does well to explain between the two cutscenes. And I don't think I need to explain about the ODSTs and Marines since that's purely gameplay: I'm sure military schools don't teach their militarymen to hold firm to your rifle and use a front-kick at your opponents. Minus the comical efforts. Energy shields seem to work in such odd way. The novels described it as a fully-sealed cover that separates the user from its environment. If this is true, then the Elites would have a hard time breathing since they are of similar technology. The games seem to abandon this idea in favour of what I would categorise as my very own guesswork. I'll just get straight to the point but this is, once again, purely guesswork: they activate only when it detects a particular amount of force (once it goes beyond a certain threshold) similar to the Onyx Sentinel's shielding system.
::Refocusing back to my earlier question before we derailed into analysing cutscenes (did not intend to make that cutscene as my only proof: it was simply supplementary evidence), there is no proof in canon that provides anything on the Elite's shielding corresponding to the ranks. The origin of "colour = shield strength" originated from H1's gameplay content which is now treated as canon info, despite none of the novels or any other mediums making this reference. Gameplay content hasn't been the most reliable source of canon as we've seen countless times, such as the issue with the MA5B (now cemented by 343i in their MA5 article as to having horrible accuracy despite the novels showing the contrary). Occam's razor would suggest that this is just gameplay. The complex approach would be to argue "Elite culture dictates that the higher up you are, the stronger your shields" even when the novels showed none of this.
::However, you do have a point about that Six's last cutscene. Perhaps "dramatic tension" can be used an excuse to ignore the assault rifle? :P — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  13:46, 21 October 2012 (EDT)

The reason why I'd stick with the gameplay interpretation of the shields is because, for the most part, it is consistent. It's stayed consistent through most of the games, and if Bungie or 343 ever felt like clearly stating that their shields' strength is only gameplay, then they had plenty of opportunities to do so but never did. There's much clearer ways of illustrating it than just tiny details that need freeze-framing on a cutscene. Plus, about the whole "lying down on the floor delivers a weaker punch", one of Six's punches in Lone Wolf is also after he/she's been knocked down on that ground. He/She's ''still'' able to punch the entire shield off a Zealot. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 14:34, 21 October 2012 (EDT)

And the ODSTs in ''Halo: 3 ODST'' don't do the "kick melee". They use their fists, and the shields flare. Sure, Bungie had to simplify the NPCs' melee, but that's because (Doyloist) real Marines' close combat is more complicated to animate and (Watsonian) many of the enemies they fight are much taller than them, meaning techniques like strangleholds and wrestling are moot. Kicks deliver a lot more overall force than a punch, and cover more ground. Some military schools do teach this, for instance, in door-breaching. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 20:11, 21 October 2012 (EDT)

:That comment regarding military school was intended for only the Marines. The limited melee animation of Marines is not due to animation complexity but rather because short/quick melee animation works best to enhance gameplay experience for fast-paced shooters. That the reason why melee combos previously featured in the Halo 2's E3 trailer was abandoned (and it looks clunky). The ODSTs in ''Recon'' is excluded from this comment since they are simply remodelled/rescalled Spartan biped using the same features available in ''Halo 3'' and ''Reach''(fun fact: ''Recon'' was a testbed for several/certain features of ''Reach'').
:For the most part, it is pretty much consistent but that is only in terms of "armour color = shield strength". It's a gameplay language indicating how tough the enemy character is: echoing Shiek's criticism, ''"I probably wouldn't have made the Covenant guys so colorful. But that was a request from Jason. Shinier, brighter, more color and i'm like 'Dude, you're fucking nuts, man!'. This things like a rainbow, it's horrible. Obviously, it worked. He knows it from gameplay perspective what makes games tick."''
:The last cutscene is different from the one in Winter Contingency: in the latter, Six is pressed against the floor by the Zealot whereas he has much more space to throw a good punch in the former. Quite a nitpick but it provides an explanation (however weak it is). Then again, can I still wave "dramatic tension" flag for that last scene?— <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  20:48, 21 October 2012 (EDT)

I don't think we can judge what kind of room Six had to throw a punch in those situations. Take a look at the two cutscenes [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gZinvCUXe0 here] and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ_-a_n8Q-4 here]. In the Winter Contigency one we can't tell what position he's in because it's from his point of view. He could have had all the room he wanted to toss a punch. In Lone Wolf, we also can't even see how much room he has to punch the Zealot because an Elite's foot has covered that part of the screen. I say the Doylist reason the Field Marshall's shield dropped so quickly is not because they were meant to be that weak in-universe, but provide a justification for him running to save his hide. If Bungie had given him full strength shields in there, he would have fought longer, so it would have either seemed too implausible for him to not manage to down even one Noble member. It also would have increased the cutscene's length when there was still more gameplay waiting to come. Why wave the dramatic tension flag for just one cutscene but the other? [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 21:43, 21 October 2012 (EDT)

Also, recalling what you said about the Assault Rifle being more accurate in the books but 343 mistakenly saying it was really as bad as gameplay, then perhaps we're looking at it from the wrong direction? Perhaps it's ''the assault rifle'' that's ''stronger'' in-universe? [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 21:50, 21 October 2012 (EDT)

:We can make that call. In Winter Contingency's cutscene, the Zealot is pressing Six against the floor, impaling him with its energy dagger. This is different with Lone Wolf's cutscene: by slowing down the frames, it can be observed that the Zealot that was "punched" away by Six did not manage to thrust its energy sword.
:I am willing to throw down the flag for that one particular scene on Noble Six because the assault rifle Six used in his last stand had infinite ammo all of a sudden. That, and the fact that his body could withstand volleys of plasma despite not having the exclusive augmentation Gamma Company received. The Elites must've been so pissed, they sent waves to kill him. :O
:Care to expand on the assault rifle? Not sure if we should since it would go out of the question. :/ — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  22:33, 21 October 2012 (EDT)

I don't think Six got impaled by the dagger. There's a quick flash of Six's left arm pushing the Zealot's arm out of the way (darn shaky cam!) and he has no damage when the gameplay resumes. [[Exodus|And Bungie has shown willingness to have gameplay start with some damage for the sake of the story]]. Anyway, I don't really see how the stabbing/no stabbing of sword or dagger applies. The important aspect is how much room Six had to throw a punch and that can't be told in either cutscene because we can't see their full position. Even then, I'd be willing to wager a "weak" punch by a Spartan that's been augmented, trained to death, ''and'' has strength increasing armor is still going to be a very strong blow ''even'' when lying on the floor.

From the assault rifle angle, it fires for about 2 and a half seconds, a reasonable length. But then he receives the rifle back with exactly [[7]] bullets left. Proof of artistic license being invoked in its firing, just like in Lone Wolf? I'm not sure. But I think the assault rifle having been made stronger is, in my opinion, the more reasonable and realistic answer, since we know for sure that their effectiveness gets adjusted for gameplay. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 22:58, 21 October 2012 (EDT)

:The health, or biometric system as it is referred to in canon, captures the "health" (bluntly put, I know). It does not cover the condition of the armour. That being said, I am certain that the Zealot did impale Six with its dagger (the sound of the dagger making contact with the armour was played, if I'm not mistaken) but it did not breach it to the extent that it injured Six. The chestpiece is after all the thickest part of the armour. Entirely different with your Exodus example. And the reason why the whole "stabbing with energy sword or dagger" matters is simple: it concerns the distance of the aggressor to its target. The Zealot who successfully impaled Six would indicate that he is much closer to Six than the Zealot who tried to impale Six with an energy sword. This is further evidence to show that Six was pinned down to the floor in Winter Contingency (and as such did not have enough room to throw a good punch) and limited freedom of space compared to his final showdown. Mythbuster did [http://mythbustersresults.com/coffin-punch something similar involving punching at a narrow space] and it did not produce good force. It was concluded that a good punch exerting a lot of force requires a good spread of space.
:The strength of SPARTANs (with MJOLNIR) are almost equally matched to the Elites. What is considered a weak punch made by a Spartan is considered a strong punch to an average human. If an average human is placed in Six's position instead, the punch is more likely to be a gentle push at the Zealot's face that would make it laugh instead of growling/roaring as it did after Six punched it.
:Wouldn't say that the rifle was made stronger for that particular scene. Rather, that scene shows the rifle's actual power before it was affected by gameplay. What happens after the cutscene is gameplay determined by the difficulty settings. The example of the MA5B provides how 343i approached gameplay content and treating them as canon in reference materials: another good example is the shotgun, which has been inaccurately portrayed as strictly a close-range weapon (of up to 10 metres) though real life ones can reach up to 40 metres. It is in fact the other way around, that the weapons are not made stronger in-universe but dumbed-down for gameplay. Again, I don't think we should discuss about this any further since it will go off topic.— <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  03:15, 22 October 2012 (EDT)

I don't doubt what you say about cramped punches being weaker. What I doubt it is that Six threw a weak punch. There is no proof that weak blows don't flare shields, little proof that he didn't have room because we can't see when he starts his punch, and, as you acknowledge, the Elite growled angrily from it. Bungie just could have hid the shields in that scene because an Elite snarling in your face doesn't look very impressive if there's shield waves obscuring it.<br />
''that scene shows the rifle's actual power before it was affected by gameplay''. Sure, let's go with that wording. I think that's pretty much that same thing anyway. I too believe the shotgun in the actual Halo universe would have a greater range; who releases a weapon that close-range? Anyway, so it seems equally likely, and more plausible, that it's the assault rifle that caused the discrepancy. Therefore, I say this should be just put down as a note on the Zealot page, pointing out his shield dropped faster, but that it could be either from a deliberate dumbing down (alliterative!), in-universe shields being weaker, or the assault rifle's actual strength. Because there's evidence either way, and I think we'd need a bit more to gain an answer.

<gallery>
File:Zealot Stab.png|The sound of the Zealot's dagger deploying is heard here, yet it is clearly not stabbing him.
File:Zealot Attack.png|Six's arm can be seen pushing back the dagger.
</gallery>

:Just a quick fix so that the images does not disrupt the discussion layout. There are several sound files played in between those two images you supplied. One is when the dagger is deployed and another when the dagger makes contact with the chestpiece (you would notice that Six's head/vision nudged to the top for a quick second before he pushed back the dagger).
:It was more on the notion that he did not threw a good punch that would activate the Zealot's energy shielding, along the lines of "his punch did not trigger shielding because it did not reach the threshold or that the shielding system did not detect it anywhere close to its threshold" (which goes back to my guesswork of shielding in games is like the Onyx Sentinel, detecting force at a certain threshold). Never said anything about Six throwing a weak punch throughout all of my post. Weak > Normal > Good! ;)
:It should also be noted that in gameplay since Halo 2, armour colour also denotes not only the shield strength but also the amount of health a Covenant soldier has. The differences in the amount of health between a Zealot and a Minor is significantly wide. Surely you can't argue that the Elites combat mantra includes "you earned these shields and this health enhancement (i.e. herbal medication) to make you more durable by your kills". — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  20:37, 22 October 2012 (EDT)

I assumed the health stood for the armor's strength. It makes sense that a higher ranked figure would receive stronger armor. How can it regenerate, then? Well, armor impacted by plasma takes a while to cool down. Likewise, if you're shot by a bullet, even if you're wearing body armor it takes a while for you to regain your breath again. Don't give it enough time to cool down, and the armor gets a permanent mark. Get hit by just enough bullets at a time, and you've got a cracked rib. Health packs, however, are pure gameplay.

Then, as I said before, if the Elite's shield didn't activate, why did it seem to be not hurt at all by Six's blow? I think if I was punched in the jaw, I'd take a longer pause and not immediately "rawr!" back at my opponent. Also, Halsey's description of the Mark V's new shield to John also makes it sound like it's always present, not activating only when detecting sufficient speed/force. This is why she tells John to lower the strength of the shields around his feet, otherwise they would prevent him from touching the floor. A ordinary step by a Spartan is much slower and weaker in force than Six's punch or a thrown rock. If it only responded to sufficient force, then deactivating it in regards to the floor would not be a problem.

As for the Onyx Sentinels, well... Sentinels on the whole are pretty badly designed. [[Enforcer|Why build a shield that faces in just one direction]]? So the characters can beat them, that's why. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 22:55, 22 October 2012 (EDT)

:A bit far fetched for health referring to the armour integrity/strength. Both H1 and Reach manual refers the health as the user's base body health (''Reach'' as source). I remember another source referring it as "biometric monitoring system" or something alone those lines. The presence of this health indicator in the HUD is canon, but its behaviour in the games is influenced by gameplay of course.
:Not sure if I should make a comment about the following: ''" I think if I was punched in the jaw, I'd take a longer pause and not immediately "rawr!" back at my opponent."'' You can't put yourself in another's shoes since everyone reacts differently. Especially when one is of an alien origin.
:As for the shields described in the novel (should correct myself, only FoR described shielding in such detail), Nylund's explanation of energy shield operation would fit nicely with the MJOLNIR and the Sentinels. It would not, however, work well with the Elites: (1) since the user is separated from the environment, the available air would be restricted/limited for a significantly short periods and (2) the standard Elite soldiers do not use any form of helmets providing respiratory support like the Grunts (unless they're in the Rangers). The standard Elite would have breathing difficulties if the novel's explanation of shielding operation is applied. The game seems to take a different but similar approach, that the shielding system is active but would only be visible only when a certain amount of force is detected (like the Onyx Sentinel as an example). I'll avoid repeating myself since the rest of the explanation is available in the previous comments.— <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  23:50, 22 October 2012 (EDT)

It's easier to call it health. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BodyArmorAsHitPoints Many take that approach].  ''everyone reacts differently. Especially when one is of an alien origin.'' Unless that Elite was Bane, I can't see any good reason why he wouldn't wince in pain from to a punch to the face.

Presumably the shield still has holes small enough to let air in. John in ''First Strike'' comments how he can feel air enter his helmet from the scrubber vents in the front. And wasn't there that Elite, [[Bero 'Kusovai]], who inhaled a few too many Flood spores? Also, Dare, Brutes, and Jackals were covered in Overshields from Engineers during the Battle of New Mombasa which were highly visible and surrounded their whole body, and yet none of them suffocated from the lack of air. None of them have any visible air source too. It seems shields are designed to let in air. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 00:30, 23 October 2012 (EDT)

:Halo provides a definition of what is health, ''many'' don't. In fact, that TvTropes page itself listed the shields instead the health. And once again, ''everyone reacts differently''. When shot in the body, a soldier might stop and tend to his wound while another might just ignore it and keep on fighting. Similarly, when punched to the face, one might keep on punching while suppressing the pain while others would, as you said, pause. Generalisation of behaviour sucks. :P
:FoR provides the following description when the MJOLNIR's energy shielding is activated: ''"The air around the Master Chief popped — as if it jumped away from the MJOLNIR armor. There was none of the shimmer that normal Covenant shields had."'' Quite specific about the separation of user and environment, and Covenant shields here refers to Jackal's gauntlet (in the pre-2010 edition; not sure if this has been altered in the newer editions). If there are gaps within the shielding layer small enough to allow the air to enter, the air won't "popped".
:The only way for John's commentin ''First Strike'' to make sense is to refer to the "guesswork", unless we are to consider that the description provided above is no longer followed by the author and that the shielding does not separate the user from the environment. Also, HGN does not provide anything about 'Kusovai's transformation into the Flood as a result of inhaling too many Flood spores. A citation is needed for that. If so, one would need to question why 'Vadam and 'Vadum are not transformed into Flood forms. The Covenant is no in possession of a Flood cure. <s>And your examples from ''Recon'' simply provide more reason why Nylund's description in FoR has been abandoned in the games and in favour of the "guesswork". Overshield is simply a concentrated layer of energy shielding capable of taking more damage.</s>
:Again, this is becoming more of "how energy shields work" discussion than "whether Elites do have varying health/shielding as they get promoted". As I stated a few weeks ago, ''"[to] discuss the operation of shielding technology is almost impossible and cannot be realistically explained. Doing so will just end up with tons of theories."'' The essential question that should be answered is simply this: Is the portrayal of shield strength and amount of health as determined by Covenant ranks in the games canon? I've made the conclusion that ''"Occam's razor would suggest that this is just gameplay [language]"'' and used Winter Contingency as an example (but I did not anticipate to over-analyse the entire cutscenes in Halo games). — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  03:18, 23 October 2012 (EDT)

A mention of air popping away? Yes, finally a specific proof! That does suggest a different operation at work. Perhaps, though, it just means the air was just pushed away, not cut off? Eh, more speculation. The spore thing came from [[Flood spores#Trivia]]. Thanks a lot for failing me, page.

I'm not sure what you're saying about Overshields in ''ODST''. You acknowledge that they're a surrounding layer that's always active, but they must abandon Nylund's description if air can come through, but that same description proves Elite shields must be different to provide air, but at the same time the Overshields exist and... I don't get it.

Returning to the issue of shield strength, I don't think that even if the Field Marshal's shields are really that less strong, that it would mean ''all'' Elite shields are weak. It could just mean real Elite Minors would have even weaker shields that means they wouldn't even get to take two steps in that cutscene's scenario. There's no proof of its effect on other ranks. You cite Occam's Razor, but I don't think it's the simplest answer to throw out years of gameplay info. To me, the simplest answer was that it was just adjusted for the cutscene, because they needed an excuse for the Elites to run away. That's why I think this should just be a note, either in the trivia, brought up in a paragraph, or cited in the notes section. That's what got done on the really complicated "Is [[glassing]] real?" issue and it's worked pretty well there. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 03:46, 23 October 2012 (EDT)

:I thought you knew?!! That was Nylund's description of how the MJOLNIR's energy shielding operate. If there are gaps in the shielding layer, then the air would "hiss", not "pop". Like how a punctured tire would, I imagine. The more I read the novels, the more confused I am trying to make sense of how energy shielding works. Nylund seems to only use his description of energy shielding only when it is appropriate to do so: the description was applied when John had to lower his energy shields in order to move through a narrow corridor, and when Kelly's shield gets pelted by splinters and stones after her first encounter with Kurt on Onyx, but never during fist-fighting. It's also never clear how strong the Elites' shields are in the novels: in FoR, it took Linda five sniper shots to down an Elite Ranger, John fired three-burst from his MA5B to down a SpecOps in The Flood and First Strike, and Tom "sprayed" an unknown amount from his MA5K on an Elite of unknown rank in Ghosts of Onyx (though Tom killed the Elite, who was armed with an energy sword and a plasma pistol, by firing "into the slit of its helmet").
:I think I've confused myself right now by mixing gameplay into canon when I made the comment about ''Recon'' ( d=____="b ). I blame reading the novels. Slashing now. Anyway, how an Engineer produces its own energy shielding and applying it to its surroundings in ''Recon'' and ''Reach'' is anyone's guess since it's the first time we see one doing so. Maybe nanobots since they are of "nano-mechanical surrogates"?
:Since the novels themselves are inconsistent (and being more vague) with the games, I decided to refer to the games themselves and see whether there is a consistent shield strength in all four games. Using Heroic difficulty and just a plasma pistol, the results are... odd:
::*H1: Elites are of the same health but varying shield strength.
::*H2: Shield strength and health increases per rank. Ranger has the same qualities of a Major. A SpecOps has the same qualities of a Zealot.
::*H3: Not tested since they kept getting injured by the Flood. The fact that they're constantly moving is not helping at all.
::*Reach: SpecOps and Rangers share the same amount as Minors in terms of shield strength but both have greater health points. All other increases per rank. In Firefight, SpecOps have lower shield strength than Minors. Rangers have identical shield strength as Minors.
:The difficulty is getting them in one spot. Heroic is chosen because allies in normal difficulty will keep killing the Elites successfully in some games. The above finding supports my conclusion that it's not as consistent as you would like to believe. I really don't want to read the novels again... it's a mess. :/ — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  11:01, 23 October 2012 (EDT)

Best place to test Elite shields in ''Halo 3'' is in The Covenant just after you and they defeated the first wave of Brutes outside the tower, but before you enter instead. Then get your choice of weapons and shoot them! Elite Rangers and SpecOps have been pretty variable. Their armor design, their method of flight, how much they actually use their cloaking, etc. But they're easier to alter without backlash because they're not a mainstream rank. They might have been adjusted to make them easier to kill. Trying to kill them in ''Halo 2'' wasn't fun.

Alright, so here's what I'd write for this page: "During the cutscene ''Skeleton Crew'' of [[Winter Contingency (level)|Winter Contingency]], the [[Sangheili Field Marshal]]'s shields falls from a relatively brief burst of Assault Rifle fire. In the same cutscene Jorge and a Zealot's shield do not flare when being meleed. This may represent that the Zealots' energy shields are weaker in canon, that the Assault Rifle is stronger in canon, or that both were adjusted in the cutscene to equal the fighting level." That work? [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 11:47, 23 October 2012 (EDT)

:The issue with Halo 3 is getting data of the SpecOps: they only appear in Floodgate. Also tested on Jackals and Grunts: results are expected, that is the higher the rank, the more health the biped has. Quite conclusive that this is largely gameplay language and not actual canon (aside from the Elite culture of armour colour denoting the amount of kills they've achieved).
:The discussion is not about the cutscene but rather the use (and removal) of "[this rank] has a [superior/inferior] shield strength" in present articles (thus answering my question about the portrayal of the features). This article is perfect in the current state: no mention of ranks having varying shield strength. With hindsight, I think I should've started the discussion on the [[Sangheili personal energy shield]]... oh well. :P — <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  12:57, 23 October 2012 (EDT)

In that case we have no cutscene data on the shield differences between ranks, since we've only seen its effect on Zealots. In that case, well, can't think of anything to amend. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 13:09, 23 October 2012 (EDT)
:Indeed. According to the Zealot article, they made only one appearance in the novel.— <span style="font-size:16px; font-family:OrbitronMedium;">[[User:Subtank|<span style="color:#FF4F00;">subtank</span>]]</span>  13:14, 23 October 2012 (EDT)