Talk:Post-Covenant War conflicts: Difference between revisions

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I got fed up with this title long ago but the problem always was the lack of a better alternative. I've entertained the idea of using the name '''"Reclamation conflict"''' for a while but it always felt like it was teetering dangerously close to fanon. But I realized that might not be entirely true, or at least that it's hardly any more offending than what we currently have. My reasons:
I got fed up with this title long ago but the problem always was the lack of a better alternative. I've entertained the idea of using the name '''"Reclamation conflict"''' for a while but it always felt like it was teetering dangerously close to fanon. But I realized that might not be entirely true, or at least that it's hardly any more offending than what we currently have. My reasons:


It is descriptive, even more so than the current title, despite appearing somewhat abstract at first. The "reclamation" is a legit in-universe event or a series of events which is at the centerpiece of the postwar ''Halo'' universe (including the [[Reclaimer Saga|name of the new game series]]), and any significant conflict is intrinsically tied to it in many respects, not the least of which is the Didact-Librarian dynamic. It relates to the reasons and motivations behind the hostilities instead of listing a rigid set of participants, thus making it more encompassing than any vs. combination of factions we could come up with, barring something like "Human/Lifeworker-Covenant/Promethean war", which I never hope to see. As for why use "conflict" over "war", it sounds more neutral and inclusive and perhaps better conveys the less defined nature of the event.
It is descriptive, even more so than the current title, despite appearing somewhat abstract at first. The "reclamation" is a legit in-universe event or a series of events which is at the centerpiece of the postwar ''Halo'' universe (including the name of the new game series), and any significant conflict is intrinsically tied to it in many respects, not the least of which is the Didact-Librarian dynamic. It relates to the reasons and motivations behind the hostilities instead of listing a rigid set of participants, thus making it more encompassing than any vs. combination of factions we could come up with, barring something like "Human/Lifeworker-Covenant/Promethean war", which I never hope to see. As for why use "conflict" over "war", it sounds more neutral and inclusive and perhaps better conveys the less defined nature of the event.


It's also very succinct, and it's easy on the eyes while being strictly descriptive. And if I had to choose whether the average fan on the Waypoint forums calls it the "Reclamation Conflict" (because the capital letters are bound to happen anyways) or the "Second Human-Covenant War" (by extension calling the original war the "First Human-Covenant War") I definitely choose the former. As long as we use the article title caveat and perhaps a note, it should be fine. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 00:55, 8 November 2013 (EST)
It's also very succinct, and it's easy on the eyes while being strictly descriptive. And if I had to choose whether the average fan on the Waypoint forums calls it the "Reclamation Conflict" (because the capital letters are bound to happen anyways) or the "Second Human-Covenant War" (by extension calling the original war the "First Human-Covenant War") I definitely choose the former. As long as we use the article title caveat and perhaps a note, it should be fine. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 00:55, 8 November 2013 (EST)
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::Fair enough. I was just scratching my head why it went so far that even the attack on the infinity from 2553 was also included in as well. I'll begin changing some stuff.[[User:Lord Susto|<span style="color:red">Lord Susto</span>]] 00:57, 22 June 2014 (EDT)
::Fair enough. I was just scratching my head why it went so far that even the attack on the infinity from 2553 was also included in as well. I'll begin changing some stuff.[[User:Lord Susto|<span style="color:red">Lord Susto</span>]] 00:57, 22 June 2014 (EDT)


:It seems like 343i are building up the NCA as an ally of convenience to the larger parts of the Covenant remnant who are hostile to the UNSC, and that their actions are tied thus into the larger conflict. I would be ''very'' hesitant to remove them from being mentioned here, since it also feels like 343i are planning to ramp up their presence in future media, and by consequence the role they'll play in galactic history. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 03:15, 22 June 2014 (EDT)
:It seems like 343i are building up the NCA as an ally of convenience to the larger parts of the Covenant remnant who are hostile to the UNSC, and that their actions are tied thus into the larger conflict. I would be ''very'' hesitant to remove them from being mentioned here, since it also feels like 343i are planning to ramp up their presence in future media, and by consequence the role they'll play in galactic history. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 03:15, 22 June 2014 (EDT)


::I think this page is definitely lacking a concrete identity as far as its content is concerned — I've been imagining it as shorthand for "whatever conflict goes on in the Reclaimer Saga era", which may or may not involve the Forerunner/Reclaimer stuff. This is also why it was originally renamed to the current title from the more limiting "second human-Covenant war". Given the prominence of the NCA in major events I would likewise not remove them from this page altogether (actions involving them might end up being key to understanding other, Forerunner-related events in the future), though having them here does create an awkward overlap of the contents of this article and the Insurrection page.  --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 03:28, 22 June 2014 (EDT)
::I think this page is definitely lacking a concrete identity as far as its content is concerned — I've been imagining it as shorthand for "whatever conflict goes on in the Reclaimer Saga era", which may or may not involve the Forerunner/Reclaimer stuff. This is also why it was originally renamed to the current title from the more limiting "second human-Covenant war". Given the prominence of the NCA in major events I would likewise not remove them from this page altogether (actions involving them might end up being key to understanding other, Forerunner-related events in the future), though having them here does create an awkward overlap of the contents of this article and the Insurrection page.  --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 03:28, 22 June 2014 (EDT)
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Isn't it a little strange to add every ship captain that had partaken in fighting to the commanders section of the info box. For the non-Covenant faction it could surely it can be boiled down to: [[Terrence Hood|Lord Terrence Hood]], [[Margaret Parangosky|Admiral Margaret Parangosky]] ,[[Serin Osman|Admiral Serin Osman]], [[Thel 'Vadam|Arbiter Thel 'Vadam]], [[Lydus|Chieftain Lydus]]. Also do Kilo-five/Osman really need to be included in the Covenant remnant side? silently arming a faction for a few months before all out war isn't exactly apart of their side. [[Special:Contributions/89.168.23.47|89.168.23.47]] 13:44, 18 September 2014 (EDT)
Isn't it a little strange to add every ship captain that had partaken in fighting to the commanders section of the info box. For the non-Covenant faction it could surely it can be boiled down to: [[Terrence Hood|Lord Terrence Hood]], [[Margaret Parangosky|Admiral Margaret Parangosky]] ,[[Serin Osman|Admiral Serin Osman]], [[Thel 'Vadam|Arbiter Thel 'Vadam]], [[Lydus|Chieftain Lydus]]. Also do Kilo-five/Osman really need to be included in the Covenant remnant side? silently arming a faction for a few months before all out war isn't exactly apart of their side. [[Special:Contributions/89.168.23.47|89.168.23.47]] 13:44, 18 September 2014 (EDT)


:I would argue that Parangosky and Osman deserve to be listed on both sides. As for Kilo-5, their actions have certainly benefited the [[Jul 'Mdama's Covenant faction|"New Covenant"]] more than the UNSC, albeit in hindsight, and I think it's appropriate to list them as hostile assets, at least for the moment. They should also probably be listed under the UNSC's assets aswell, to reflect the ambiguity. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 06:26, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
:I would argue that Parangosky and Osman deserve to be listed on both sides. As for Kilo-5, their actions have certainly benefited the [[Jul 'Mdama's Covenant faction|"New Covenant"]] more than the UNSC, albeit in hindsight, and I think it's appropriate to list them as hostile assets, at least for the moment. They should also probably be listed under the UNSC's assets aswell, to reflect the ambiguity. -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 06:26, 19 September 2014 (EDT)


::Perhaps ONI should be included on both sides? I haven't read the third Kilo-5 book but I figured with a genocidal mad man like Jul being the established opposition to Thel and the Forerunners siding with them there is far less emphasis on their project of instability. [[Special:Contributions/89.168.23.47|89.168.23.47]] 08:51, 20 September 2014 (EDT)
::Perhaps ONI should be included on both sides? I haven't read the third Kilo-5 book but I figured with a genocidal mad man like Jul being the established opposition to Thel and the Forerunners siding with them there is far less emphasis on their project of instability. [[Special:Contributions/89.168.23.47|89.168.23.47]] 08:51, 20 September 2014 (EDT)
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{{Support}} - [[User:Bronzey|Bronzey]] ([[User talk:Bronzey|talk]]) 18:51, 21 September 2014 (EDT)
{{Support}} - [[User:Bronzey|Bronzey]] ([[User talk:Bronzey|talk]]) 18:51, 21 September 2014 (EDT)


{{Support}} - -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[w:c:halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 21:17, 21 September 2014 (EDT)
{{Support}} - -- [[User:Morhek|<b><font color=indigo>Qura 'Morhek</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>The Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>of Morheka</sup></font></i></u>]] 21:17, 21 September 2014 (EDT)


== The Insurrection's inclusion ==
== The Insurrection's inclusion ==
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::::::: It doesn't matter if the fight ever ended. What matters is that the reasons for and magnitude of the fight altered at a fundamental level. Thanks, --[[User:Weeping Angel|Weeping Angel]] ([[User talk:Weeping Angel|talk]]) 14:55, 8 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::: It doesn't matter if the fight ever ended. What matters is that the reasons for and magnitude of the fight altered at a fundamental level. Thanks, --[[User:Weeping Angel|Weeping Angel]] ([[User talk:Weeping Angel|talk]]) 14:55, 8 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It does matter if they stopped fighting. I think I am done here, if anyone tries to put this back up on the article I am removing it because it does not belong here. p.s. look at the name of the article in case you have not noticed. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - [[Blue Team|Team Chief]] 20:06, 8 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It does matter if they stopped fighting. I think I am done here, if anyone tries to put this back up on the article I am removing it because it does not belong here. p.s. look at the name of the article in case you have not noticed. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - [[Blue Team|Team Chief]] 20:06, 8 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::@Alertfiend: I understand your frustration, but I am sorry that we could not settle this better.
Given that we came to no conclusion in our debate, I would like to propose we vote on the matter. Does this seem reasonable to everyone else? Thanks, --[[User:Weeping Angel|Weeping Angel]] ([[User talk:Weeping Angel|talk]]) 22:55, 11 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::I am not frustrated, I just am getting tired of explaining why the Great Schism hasn't not ended, and why it should not be added to this page, create a vote if you want.[[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - [[Blue Team|Team Chief]] 23:33, 11 October 2015 (EDT)
===Voting===
'''Inclusion of Sangheili-Jiralhanae Conflicts in the the Post-Covenant War conflicts page
Reason: The conflicts between the Brutes and Elites took place after the Human-Covenant War and after the Great Schism, therefore this is the only logical place to acknowledge and categorize those conflicts.
{{Support}} - --[[User:Weeping Angel|Weeping Angel]] ([[User talk:Weeping Angel|talk]]) 11:30, 12 October 2015 (EDT)
::  {{Support}} - '''I vote.''' It is a species wide war between the Sangheili and Jiralhanae that is ongoing until at least 2559, as a result of the Great Schism. It has been mentioned back when Halo: Evolutions came out in 2009.
:: Halo: Evolutions: The Return - "It was a terrible war. The Prophets provided the Brutes with powerful new weapons, hoping that they would in turn defend their Prophets against our wrath. But when the Prophets went into hiding, the lack of leadership allowed the Brutes to return to their savage nature and they soon began to fight against each other. This lack of solidarity made them much easier prey. Some of my fellow commanders continue that fight even now" --[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 12:50, 22 November 2015 (EST)
==Renaming==
*Post Human-Covenant War conflicts
::I believe the name should be changed to Post Human-Covenant War conflicts for the fact this wiki uses detailed names for the conflicts, such as Human-Covenant War as opposed to 343's common use of simply Covenant War. So, I think this article should reflect the same thing, as both the Covenant and Humanity waged war, not only the Covenant.
Also, since it is only mentioned here, rename it wouldn't be hardworking as the name isn't referenced in other pages, only being titled post-war or post-war conflicts. [[User:Draft227|Draft227]] ([[User talk:Draft227|talk]]) 12:10, 18 December 2015 (EST)
:343i uses "Covenant War" almost more often than "Human-Covenant War". It's quite unambiguous what conflict it refers to, and it works better in the title for the sake of brevity. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 11:45, 19 December 2015 (EST)
== Getting rid of the infobox ==
I'm thinking that the conflict infobox on this page has outlived its usefulness and the article would be better off without it. It may have been informative back in the ''Halo 4'' days when we had only the UNSC, one Covenant and the Didact involved but since then it's become increasingly difficult (or impossible) to always determine who's on whose side, not to mention the fact the infobox is giving the false impression that this is one monolithic conflict when we're actually just using the page to list every unconnected skirmish and battle that happens after the Covenant War. It's just become a big mess of affiliations and military assets that's more distracting than informative. --[[User:Jugus|<font color="MidnightBlue"><b>Jugus</b></font>]] <small>([[User talk:Jugus|<font color="Gray">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jugus|<font color="Gray">Contribs</font>]])</small> 11:04, 3 January 2016 (EST)
:Agreed. Especially when it's clear that not all Covenant or rebel forces are on the same side. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 11:32, 3 January 2016 (EST)
==Created takeover of human colonies==
I'm planning on making a "battle" page for when the Created took over Earth and the majority of human colonies. You guys cool with the title of ''Takeover of Earth and her colonies'' or should we not bother at all with a page for that event and instead opt for a section on this article?[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 02:06, 29 February 2016 (EST)
:If this also includes events from Riptide and Torque, yeah. For the title, I don't know, it seems they also took over Covenant worlds. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 02:34, 29 February 2016 (EST)
::While the Created no doubt have taken over some former Covenant worlds I was under the assumption that "Covenant space" was relatively safe from the Created. Partially in part due to the lack of Smart AIs there for Cortana to recruit.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 02:38, 29 February 2016 (EST)
:::I meant she must have sent her Guardians in their systems. She threatens them during Halo 5's last level. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 02:44, 29 February 2016 (EST)
::::Is there an article for "the Reclaimation" yet? Cortana called what she was doing the Reclaimation and even if it isn't the real or intended reclaimation, this would all belong on that page. {{Unsigned|163.11.105.151}}
:::::Yeah, it would be put on the Created conflict article. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 23:03, 29 February 2016 (EST)
::::Where she refers to all but three species? While it's for sure a threat I'm not sure it confirms that she sent Guardians to those planets (at that time) unlike with human colonies where we get confirmation in the game that they're there.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 02:48, 29 February 2016 (EST)
:::::I was thinking about making an article titled the "Created conflict" or something. This article could include all Guardian issues and the ''Halo 5'' conflicts, as well as the later stuff like Torque and Riptide. --[[User:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">'''NightHammer'''</span>]]''<sup>[[User talk:NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(talk)</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/NightHammer|<span style="color: #2B1AAA;">(contribs)</span>]]</sup>'' 09:13, 29 February 2016 (EST)
::::::"Created conflict" might encompass more things. [[User:Imrane-117|Imrane-117]] ([[User talk:Imrane-117|talk]]) 04:02, 3 March 2016 (EST)
==Goodbye Post-Covenant War Conflicts==
I can't help but feel that the Created Conflict should be considered a new era in the universe's timeline. We have a galaxy-spanning conflict that involves everyone we know of, just like the Covenant War. {{unsigned|Japeth555}}
Not until we actually see the conflict in action in my opinion. [[User:Alertfiend|Alertfiend]] - Warning, my comments may appear passive aggressive. <small>([[User talk:AlertFiend|Converse]]) </small> 21:22, 24 July 2016 (EDT)
I agree with both you guys. It would be wise to prepare for a new era in the Haloverse, but as of right now, it is only speculation (well grounded, highly probable speculation, but speculation nonetheless) that the war with the Created will match that of the Covenant War in duration, intensity, magnitude, etc. and earn a spot equivalent to that of the Human-Covenant War. --[[User:Weeping Angel|Weeping Angel]] ([[User talk:Weeping Angel|talk]]) 22:11, 26 July 2016 (EDT)
:Yeah it's a good idea to wait. We don't know if the Created thing will last two years or two decades.[[User:Sith Venator|<span style="color:green">Sith Venator</span>]] [[File:Mega Blastoise.gif|20px]] ([[User talk:Sith Venator|<span style="color:blue">Dank Memes</span>]]) 23:18, 26 July 2016 (EDT)
:I don't think it's well grounded how long the Created conflict will last, there's no evidence of that as of now.[[User:Editorguy|Editorguy]] ([[User talk:Editorguy|talk]]) 11:28, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
== Infobox ==
I'm against the inclusion of the battle infobox for the same reasons I removed it back in the day. The conflicts the page describes are not in any way a coherent event like a war; it's just an aggregate page for any conflict that happens in the post-war era, and in a lot of cases these conflicts really have nothing to do with one another aside from the shared timeframe. I feel the infobox is giving too much of an impression of a single unified conflict (with sides, outcomes, etc.) when there is no such thing. --[[User:Jugus|Jugus]] ([[User talk:Jugus|talk]]) 10:00, 22 January 2017 (EST)
:I agree. The infobox will only become more cluttered and less relevant as time goes on if it's allowed to stay. --[[User:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">'''''Our answer is at hand.'''''</span>]] [[File:Gravemind.svg|14px]] ([[User talk:Braidenvl|<span style="color:gray">Talk to me.</span>]]) 18:41, 22 January 2017 (EST)