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Talk:Operation: TORPEDO: Difference between revisions
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With Kat and Noble 6 pulled out before the battle began, I suggest the number is decreased to 298. I think this follows the canon policy, as games are higher than books. [[User talk:Grupa 'Zamamee|Grupa 'Zamamee]] 18:58, August 27, 2010 (UTC) | With Kat and Noble 6 pulled out before the battle began, I suggest the number is decreased to 298. I think this follows the canon policy, as games are higher than books. [[User talk:Grupa 'Zamamee|Grupa 'Zamamee]] 18:58, August 27, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:Nope. According to everything we know, 300 were sent into battle. The communiques sent by Kurt suggest that he intentionally created extra Spartans and removed them from the main class, thus there were actually 302 Spartan-IIIs in the entire class, but he only handed over 300 to Ackerson.--[[File:Emblem 1.jpg|20px]][[User:Rusty-112|<span style="background:blue; font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:white;">''' Rusty '''</span>]][[User talk:Rusty-112|<span style="background:blue; font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:red;">'''- '''</span>]] | :Nope. According to everything we know, 300 were sent into battle. The communiques sent by Kurt suggest that he intentionally created extra Spartans and removed them from the main class, thus there were actually 302 Spartan-IIIs in the entire class, but he only handed over 300 to Ackerson.--[[File:Emblem 1.jpg|20px]][[User:Rusty-112|<span style="background:blue; font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:white;">''' Rusty '''</span>]][[User talk:Rusty-112|<span style="background:blue; font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:red;">'''- '''</span>]]UserWiki:Rusty-112|<span style="background:blue; font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:white;">'''112 '''</span>]]03:33, August 28, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::As my knowledge of GoO and the SIIIs in general, is rudimentary at best I bow to your superior knowledge. [[User talk:Grupa 'Zamamee|Grupa 'Zamamee]] 12:33, August 29, 2010 (UTC) | ::As my knowledge of GoO and the SIIIs in general, is rudimentary at best I bow to your superior knowledge. [[User talk:Grupa 'Zamamee|Grupa 'Zamamee]] 12:33, August 29, 2010 (UTC) | ||
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If you kill TENS OF THOUSANDS for the loss of a couple hundred, you did well. <font color="black">Something<b>Different</b></font> 19:03, 19 April 2011 (EDT) | If you kill TENS OF THOUSANDS for the loss of a couple hundred, you did well. <font color="black">Something<b>Different</b></font> 19:03, 19 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
:It's not comparative numbers, it's proportionate. Alpha and Beta had a nearly 100% fatality rate during those missions, accompanied by massive victories. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[ | :It's not comparative numbers, it's proportionate. Alpha and Beta had a nearly 100% fatality rate during those missions, accompanied by massive victories. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 19:06, 19 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
::It works either way. Alluding to the battle this is based upon, the ancient battle is known to be a pyrrhic Persian victory. So going by your logic is shouldn't be? Because the enemy suffered a higher ratio of casualties? This battle is not a pyrrhic victory. <font color="black">Something<b>Different</b></font> 19:11, 19 April 2011 (EDT) | ::It works either way. Alluding to the battle this is based upon, the ancient battle is known to be a pyrrhic Persian victory. So going by your logic is shouldn't be? Because the enemy suffered a higher ratio of casualties? This battle is not a pyrrhic victory. <font color="black">Something<b>Different</b></font> 19:11, 19 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
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:I'm not saying the UNSC lost, I'm saying they won. And judging by your quote of "Their hope was that the battle would slow down the Covenant", and it did. They won. They knew what their losses could be, it didn't surprise them. It is a UNSC victory, not a pyrrhic one though. <font color="black">Something<b>Different</b></font> 22:22, 19 April 2011 (EDT) | :I'm not saying the UNSC lost, I'm saying they won. And judging by your quote of "Their hope was that the battle would slow down the Covenant", and it did. They won. They knew what their losses could be, it didn't surprise them. It is a UNSC victory, not a pyrrhic one though. <font color="black">Something<b>Different</b></font> 22:22, 19 April 2011 (EDT) | ||
Yes, they did win. But a Pyrrhic victory doesn't mean a victory that hasn't completed its objective. Its a victory that takes more effort to win that it can be equated with a loss. Take a look at it this way. | |||
{{Quote| In both of Pyrrhus's victories, the Romans suffered greater casualties than Pyrrhus did. However, the Romans had a much larger supply of men from which to draw soldiers, so their casualties did less damage to their war effort than Pyrrhus's casualties did to his|-}} | |||
Now let's interchange it a bit. | |||
{{Quote|In Operation: TORPEDO, the Covenant suffered greater casualties than Beta Company did. However, the Covenant had a much larger supply of ships and fleets, so their casualties did less damage to their war effort than the UNSC's casualties did to theirs.|-}} | |||
It's as simple as that. For the Covenant, it would be a stumble, but for the UNSC, another attack like that would be crippling, and take well up a decade to try again. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 23:22, 19 April 2011 (EDT) | |||
:'''Reluctantly''' I agree with your point. So if there was say, another company of 300 at the same time, it would not of been pyrrhic? But anyway, well played :) <font color="black">Something<b>Different</b></font> 23:57, 19 April 2011 (EDT) | |||
Another company, do mean of Marines or something? That depends based on the proportion. If say, Spartans are Scorpions, ODSTs are Warthogs, and Marines Mongooses, and Covenant ships Scarabs, then the outcome can be seen like so. | |||
:8 Mongooses lost to defeat Scarabs. = Ah well, they had no chance. But we can replace Mongooses. | |||
:8 Warthogs lost to defeat Scarabs. = Ouch. But we ''might'' be able rough it out. | |||
:8 Scorpions lost defeat Scarabs. = SKJGSDAKRHKABKJAWAAAAAAAAATT!??!!?! | |||
Like that, it all depends on how well the UNSC can recover for what ever it had to sacrifice. So if it had been another company, of Marines or ODSTs, the chances of victory would have been smaller, but the cost of losses would have been different. [[User:Tuckerscreator|<span style="color:#6600cc;">'''''Tuckerscreator'''''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Tuckerscreator|<font color="#008000">stalk</font>]])</sup> 00:20, 20 April 2011 (EDT) | |||
:I see it like this. Alpha and Beta Company did their jobs, inflicted hundreds, if not thousands of casualties, and set the Covenant war machine back months. But they were absolutely destroyed. It was pyrrhic for them, because they were left totally inoperable afterwards. The Spartans at Thermopylae did the same - killed vastly more than their own number, but were killed to the last man (except for Eurytus and Aristodemus) as they held the pass. It was still a pyrrhic victory - they didn't hold the pass long, and didn't even ''survive'' the battle, but they allowed the other Greeks time to prepare their own defences and marshal more forces, and to eventually defeat the vastly larger Persian empire. Do you see the point? | |||
:I also have to agree with Forerunner on your apparent attitude towards Spartan-IIIs - the UNSC ''do not'' have assets that are just as effective, except for the fewer and more experienced and visible S-IIs, who they can't afford to lose for morale purposes. It's still a difficult and expensive process to "recruit", train, equip and deploy them. The difference is that they use cheaper SPI armour - cheaper ''compared to MJOLNIR'', thirty suits of which cost as much as an ''entire battlegroup''. Kelly even notes that not even the ODSTs use similar gear yet. S-IIIs are still far ahead of the curve, just not as far as their S-II predecessors. These are still highly effective, efficiently and expensively trained supersoldiers who are skilled at what they do. They aren't just thrown away, every Spartan gives their life in high0risk, high-reward missions that will buy months, if not years, not to mention billions of lives, during which time the rest of humanity can try and find better ways to counter the Covenant. Like Thermopylae. -- [[User:Specops306|<b><font color=indigo>Specops306</font></b>]] [[halofanon:user:Specops306|<u><i><font color=blue><sup>Autocrat</sup></font></i></u>]] [[User talk:Specops306|<u><i><font color=purple><sup>Qur'a 'Morhek</sup></font></i></u>]] 20:13, 20 April 2011 (EDT) | |||
:I'd like to point out to SomethingDifferent that killing more than the other only related to a "War of Attrition". The Battle of Staligrad was a decisive Soviet victory, and even though they lost nearly 200,000 more than the entire Axis-contingent ''combined'', it was not a pyhrric victory - this is because the Soviets were able to quickly replace their numbers from a large pool of potential "volunteers". Further, Soviet production was begining to advance rapidly, to the point where only a small percentage of produce was deemed necessary enough for the defence of the city. Because of their impressive ability to replace resources, this Soviet victory can not be defined as ''pyhrric''.-- '''[[User:Forerunner|<font color="blue">Fore</font>]]''[[User talk:Forerunner|<font color="green">run</font>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Forerunner|<font color="red">ner</font>]]''''' 10:49, 7 May 2011 (EDT) | |||